Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: shammy davis jnr on August 18, 2006, 08:29:04 pm
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just was out collecting tonight did a new customer in a new site where i am just breaking into charge them a modest 7 quid if they stood alone would be a tenner
went to collect for the first time at this house
and the guy said sorry but the lady nxt door gets charged a fiver so i will take the cheaper option ,,,,i said its up to you mate but my charge is seven pounds ,thank you for your custom breif though it was ,then he said i will try him for a month our so to see how he goes ,i said probobaly as fast as he came in you know where i am if you need me again
this guy has poped up from no where with a brand new merc estate new ladders and is about seventeen
i think dad and plenty money springs to mind ,,will need to clean a good few to keep up that facade ,our till dads hand outs finish lol i have ten of the mates moving into the estate in the nxt few months and i will have them without dout god i love a challange ,quality over cheapness who should win you decide ...........
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I bet when the weather is freezing and mr fiver is nowhere to be seen this customer is ringing your phone. Then i would say sorry my round is full at the moment HA HA
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my line when people say I'm expensive is this ' I KNOW I'm more expensive but I feel I do a better job than anyone else so I need to charge more to justify the work I put in', works for me.
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seen it a millionn times jr when the seal skins go on in the middle of the scottish winter its a diffrent ball game at least he wont need to scrape his mercs windows in the morning they should be heated ,where he will stay all winter and look through the windscreen at his round getting the winter pinch
lol he might be ok the young guy prob dont know the half of it but im sure daddy will supply the horlics and slippers when he gets in at night ;D
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jm i know what your saying but in the middle of a torential pour down the chippy sounded beter
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good work ethos!!! chippy always sounds good to me, mmm, its fri night ;D
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all joking aside anyone can quote a stupid ass price but it just mucks it up for the rest who are trying to raise the standard as ive heard on here a few times work smarter not harder thats a good slogan that the cheap skates should take note off ......
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just because there cheap doesnt mean there rubbish . i have been cleaning windows for 25 years now and do a better job than most who charge double what i charge in fact i think some of the prices people getting today are ridiculosly high you should wear a mask when collecting . having said that the speed some clean at they need good prices lazy gets
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Sounds like someone hasn't had a pay rise in 25 years. ;)
On a more serious note though Trevor. If you feel that you do a first class job then i would start considering raising your prices to justify the quality of work you do. Just because you're much faster than the new kids in town, why should you only be earning around the same £ in a day as them, just because they're charging twice as much.
Or do you feel that your prices are around the norm in your area and these guys are just taking the P**S
Regards,
Lance
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i think people are taking the pee and certain ones on this forum who brag about making 3 or 4 hundred £ a day or definately ripping people off this then has a knock on effect of making other people want the same and so people get greedy some slowing down there work pace to snail speed just to justify there price . get a concience and do a fair days work for a fair days wage.
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Less haste,more speed
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What is to gain by going cheap exactly?
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I have got a concience,and im an honest man.But one thing is for sure,i am not busting my a*se all day for peanuts.Ive got to pay for my van,my tax bill,Liability insurance,tools.What,you think i am going to work all day long for an average wage?No mate
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we all want a good standard of living and we work dam hard to get it but ones who only want to work two days a week for more than the majority of folk earn in more than a week are in my opinion taking libertys but that is upto them we all make or own decisions and ultimately the customers decide . but dont moan when your undercut by saying they will not last and will do acrap job for thats not always the case .
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I think my prices are reasonable.I have found that people that are cheap do not value the work they do.If they are cheap and genuinely do a good job,they should put their prices up.I dont like greedy,lazy people who take the mickey either,but you need to get a happy medium.As for people that undercut,i have no time for them
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we all want a good standard of living and we work dam hard to get it but ones who only want to work two days a week for more than the majority of folk earn in more than a week are in my opinion taking libertys but that is upto them we all make or own decisions and ultimately the customers decide . but dont moan when your undercut by saying they will not last and will do acrap job for thats not always the case .
I have to agree with Trevor on this.
With the more widespread uptake of WFP as time goes on we will all see more and more competition. I seem to keep harping on about the domestic market becoming far more competetive but I really believe it will happen. Switched on business people with the right attitude and organisation will be knocking on our customers doors offering their services at whatever price they can work at. If it is cheaper then so be it. It's a free market just like any other.
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So you think its ok to under cut others?
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It's a horrible thing to happen, but if you don't go in with a daft price to start with you won't be undercut.
I don't think I've ever been undercut, maybe once.....
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So you think its ok to under cut others?
Like Squeaky Clean says if your prices are reasonable and your work is good you have nothing to fear.
I have a price under which I won't work because I can't make a profit if I do but I see nothing wrong in offering the potential customer my services and prices. It is a free market and the customer will decide.
What makes this business different from any other? Let's be honest here. How many posts do you see asking where can I get the cheapest this or that? I am no different and like a good deal both in goods and service.
It's up to us all to protect our customer base in whatever way we can.
I am expanding my domestic work because most comercial work is at rock bottom prices. There are exceptions but it's not the norm. We all have the odd good earner for whatever reason. If by chance I do undercut anyone and get the job there will be a good reason behind me getting it. It is either well overpriced or someone is doing a bad job.
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I agree with that
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we all want a good standard of living and we work dam hard to get it but ones who only want to work two days a week for more than the majority of folk earn in more than a week are in my opinion taking libertys but that is upto them we all make or own decisions and ultimately the customers decide . but dont moan when your undercut by saying they will not last and will do acrap job for thats not always the case .
Trevor - it does seem from your posts that you have a great deal of skill in fast traditional window cleaning. I do feel that your business acumen leaves a little to be desired inasmuch as you do need to lay up some money for the future.
You need to run wfp bearing in mind replacement costs, spares costs, van costs etc - it's not so simple as running a hand to mouth, I've made a £100/£150 today so I'm ok type of operation anymore.
Ladders will slowly but surely become obsolescent in window cleaning and one fatal well- publicised-insurance-disputed fall from a ladder will accelerate that process in the domestic market as it already has done in the commercial market. Just as facilities managers are fearful of the consequences of not adhering to H&S guidelines, so too will householders.
I'm very pleased that your father is able to window clean so proficiently at age 67. I do hope however that by your upping your prices substantially (not exorbitantly) and investing any extra to your needs you will be able to choose whether you want to be doing the same if and when you reach his age in about 28 years time.
The clock is ticking and I guess many folk nearing 40 are about to enter the most expensive period of their lives over the next fifteen years or so. (kids growing, needing education, getting married etc.)
If by charging £7.50 instead of £5.00 means you don't sell yourself short, well that's what I would do.....
Respectfully
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I went door knocking a few months back and knocked on this huge great house, approx 20 sash box windows. when i said are you interested in a window cleaner they said we have been looking for ages, usual story. The woman said as long as you can do it for the same price as our last cleaner who retired you can have the job, we had him for years he always cleaned the frames and cills though. I said not a problem i always wipe the frames and cills and asked how much he charged.I estimated in my head that i would charge 40 quid every 8 weeks. She said 65 quid every 4 weeks, i straight away said DONE!! At the end the day if the customer is happy paying a certain price for the job and is happy with the clean then surely that is ok? Its not about ripping people off its about earning a good living from doing a job that alot of people look down thier noses at.
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If this new lad has just started he obviously is just out to get customers.
He might not have underpriced on purpose as most people on here will admit going in too cheap is so easy to do when you 1st start up.
I know i was quoting cheap prices when i 1st started, but i didn't think so back then.
Even now i have priced a job less than what a previous w/c did and came away kicking myself.
But saying that i know i have charged double from what a customer was paying but were happy because of the standard of work.
I had one cancel and a couple of months later called me to go back because this other w/c wasn't doing the job to the standard i was.
I told them i would be round to give them a price.
They expected me to charge them the same as i did before.
I told them that if my customers stayed loyal to me then i will fair to them.
I told them that i run a business and not doing it for a bit of extra cash.
It dosen't both me too much now as i have realised that there is always more windows round the corner and if you do a good job then work will come to you.
In the last couple of weeks i have picked up and extra 12 jobs just by cleaning someone elses windows and my number passed on.
I won't go out trying to take work from others but if a customer isn't happy with their present arrangments then i will happily give them a quote.
This dosen't mean i am stealing work just running a business.
There are people out there who will try and steal work.
I went back to 4 bungalows today after i had a phone call asking why i hadn't been.
I had had a phone call around 2 months ago saying that they had changed to another w/c and wanted to cancel me.
I said ok and took them off my books.
It turns out that none of these customers had phoned me and had seen someone new going round, but they never called on them.
I want to find out who it is because i might have a few words to say about the method used to get customers.
But i have had this before where somone has gone calling on houses ( some of my customers) telling them that i given it up or sold my round to them.
Trying to get work that way is wrong, but if you are doing a good job you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
You will always get someone who wants to pay a cheaper price, but like already said in a different post, cheaper isn't always better, but then again if someone is has gone in with a silly price they should know that it won't be long before someone else comes along with a sensible price and does just a good job.
Craig
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i think people are taking the pee and certain ones on this forum who brag about making 3 or 4 hundred £ a day or definately ripping people off this then has a knock on effect of making other people want the same and so people get greedy some slowing down there work pace to snail speed just to justify there price . get a concience and do a fair days work for a fair days wage.
so tell me trevor, if I charge £6 for a 3 bed semi, and say £12-£15 for a large detached house with a small conservatory,am I taking the p*ss?? Because mate it sounds like you're saying I con people out of their money by charging the same as others, doing a top quality job, but it only takes me half the time, I can earn £300 aday and still sleep well thanks very much, if you can't earn that then fine but it sounds to me you're jealous of the time and work that others have put into building up a good round.
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jm123 i am very happy with the work i do and i think if you where to do commercial work then the prices you quote would be overpriced. i dont do just window cleaning i also do carpet cleaning and powerwashing etc and employ 12 full time staff and some part time to . if you look on this forum under other cleaning topics you wil see prices for office cleaning between 9 and 13 pound an hour and now with the increasing use of wfp it is only a matter of time before larger companies target the domestic market cutting prices significantly. this wouldnt have happened if window cleaning had stayed traditional for it was hard to get good staff to do ladderwork but lets be honest using wfp is easy and easy to train people who will willingly work for between 7 and 9 pound an hour. i hope this doesnt happen for it will spoil it for every one but dont get to greedy . on the subject of speed i am faster than any i have come accross so far in 25 years so i dont think you would cover twice what i do only in your dreams
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everything has its price i could go back and charge the guy 2 pound then his neighbour wants it for that aswell sounds like a great idea what is the minimum wage again
hell i could do it for nothing till the other guy pes off then my servis would be classed as top notch becase i dont charge a thing
sorry guys i have to pay the six of you off our you can stay and work for nothing our join with the new guy on the block get him to pay your stamp,insurance holiday pay but you will need to work twice as hard as you did without dropping standards this sounds like a plan ba
i aint getting on no plane sucker..............its a good theroy but a bit impactical dont you think i will not drop price our standards for no one ......infact i will continue to raise my standards and my prices for many years to come
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I cant say I like the idea of being undercut but, when i first started I didn't really know what to charge and my first few customers thought I was great as my prices were low. It didn't take me long to establish a pricing structure which seems to suit me and my customers. Recently I have picked up some work from a w/c that has semi retired and my prices are very simular to his.
Maybe this daddies boy is living on his dads credit cards or maybe he is new to the biz and is making the same pricing erroros as I did.
Like others have said, he'll probably get fed up with the winter months and you'll get your customer/s back and maybe his other customers too.
Just my thoughts
Ant
TVCS
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thanks for your replies so far guys it realy is intresting to find out diffrent views on this matter no disrespect meant to any one for what they think is a good price ,,but in an industry like ours i feel you need to up the anti
how many have you have paid for this dyno rod 80 quid for a turn out before labour ,plumber,30 quid before they even look at a job , most people expect this
so why are we still finding people coming in with crazy prices reminds me of that mcdonalds advert this is how long a estae agents takes to make 99 pence open a door and close it again
its time we came out off the dark ages how much does it cost a plumber for insurance must be a lot to charge a thirty forty quid call out charge and some off us have to settle for a couple of quid for a window clean >:(
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Undercutting is healthy competition
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tvc your right i dont mind comp its healthy for any one in this fourm and the young guy is prob finding his feet fair play to the guy .......but has he really gave it any thought to the implications two the rest of the window cleaners in the area , who would prob give him good advice and a basic rough price which we all charge round here ,,i hope he realy does ok would not wish any fellow w,cleaner to go out the game ill have a word in his ear when we meet and show him the error of his ways
then end up with black eyes lol ;D to show for it lightly
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Undercutting is healthy competition
So wrong and off the marks its frightening!
Deliberately undercutting is in my eye's the lowest form of business out there. There are so many customers who want a window cleaner to go out and deliberately take work form another window cleaner by undercutting his prices is quite frankly appauling!
There is no place for people like that in this industry.
Healthy competition is when you all tender for the same contract, sell your services and may the best man win!
Trev
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Whenever a person goes into business they should draw up a business plan.
This young man whos father seems to be well off has probably done one, imagine it works like this.
This young man because he is using ladders finds that after the intial expeniture for his working equipment he only needs a small amount of money each week to carry out his work.
Outgoings
Petrol £30.00
Car Insurance £25.00
Fairy liquid £0.80
Wear & Tear £10.00
Wage £300.00
Total £365.80p each week
Working on the above figures the young man only needs to earn £365.80p each week to break even, which would work out this way.
Working times 08.00 to 16.00 monday to friday = 40 hours
Cleaning times. He can clean 3 houses per hour on average so 40 hours x 3 houses = 120 houses now divide this by what he needs to earn each week £368.80 / 120 = £3.07 per house.
So working with the above figures he could charge £5.00 per house and still make £231.60 profit each week or £11580.00 per year and still have a holiday.
Also with time he will become quicker and so his income will rise or his prices could come down even more.
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Undercutting is healthy competition
So wrong and off the marks its frightening!
Deliberately undercutting is in my eye's the lowest form of business out there. There are so many customers who want a window cleaner to go out and deliberately take work form another window cleaner by undercutting his prices is quite frankly appauling!
There is no place for people like that in this industry.
Helathy competition is when you all tender for the same contract, sell your services and may the best man win!
Trev
And may the lowest price get the job
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If their are two cleaners together both with the same equipment/experience, one would charge you £80 and the other £30 for doing the same job, who would you use?
The only way to win contracts and gain customers is to undercut your competition. This is what the public want. Competition is healthy.
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i agree but to what extent ,do u cut your nose off to spite your face if i came into your patch and took say ten doors a week becase i had re done a biz plan and could under cut you by say two pound a house
would you go round the same customer and quote the same our would you stick to your guns and have to go else where to make these ten doors up with what you charge then i come there and it all starts again
it sounds mental but there is enough work out there for every one i think its a case off look before you leap into some one elses patch , patch unwritten code of conduct to fellow w,cleaners areas
nobody wants price wars
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i agree no one wants price wars but because window cleaning with wfp is so easy and no dangers of height any more then people hear of ones earning big money and decide to give it a go and these are people who are used to working for between 7 and 9 pound an hour if they can earn 15 pound an hour there over the moon the price wars are bound to happen and it wont be long before franchisees get into the market and ruin it for everyone the way they did for carpet cleaning . this is only my oppinion and i hope im wrong but for any whos prices arent competitive expect to loose some work when money is involved customer loyalty isnt always as good as you think
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Undercutting?
What cobblers! No one wins in the end from undercutting, not the customer and not the window cleaner.
If your method of getting work is to deliberately undercut the competition then you will end out cutting corners to make money.
If your prices are simply cheaper than some others then that is different, we all have different aims in life, some are happy to earn just enough to get by on and are content to plod along.
Others want to make something of their lives, and by charging peanuts they won't achieve that.
WFP will not force the price of most domestic work down in price, it probably will on something like georgian work because it is so much faster, and I mean waaaaayyyy faster.
Big companies cannot come in and charge...say 40% less on a standard semi and still make enough to cover their operating cost (WFP) general business costs and still pay operatives a decent wage; Won't happen.
It may well affect really big accounts, mostly in the commercial sector, the bigger the job, the bigger the time differential and therefore it gives room to reduce costs and still make more money than you would do with purely trad.
Should the large business come in and deliberately undercut one man outfits on standard semi's they won't last long.
I really don't fear the 'undercutters' they rarely take many accounts, and if a customer is prepared to save a pound by swapping to one, then when the undercutter takes a hike I will take great delight in, 'ever so politely' telling the ex customer I am too busy to take them back on ;D
Ian
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Ian, you nearly didn't plug wfp then..... ;D
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Undercutting is healthy competition
So wrong and off the marks its frightening!
Deliberately undercutting is in my eye's the lowest form of business out there. There are so many customers who want a window cleaner to go out and deliberately take work form another window cleaner by undercutting his prices is quite frankly appauling!
There is no place for people like that in this industry.
Helathy competition is when you all tender for the same contract, sell your services and may the best man win!
Trev
And may the lowest price get the job
Just because you're cheap doesn't mean you will get the job. Questions will be asked regarding the standard of work they will receive and if it is a contract over 5k you will have to prove your worth to them.
Who ever buys a Gucci watch on holiday for £10 and has still got it 2 years down the road? You get what you pay for!
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If their are two cleaners together both with the same equipment/experience, one would charge you £80 and the other £30 for doing the same job, who would you use?
The only way to win contracts and gain customers is to undercut your competition. This is what the public want. Competition is healthy.
WRONG!
Listen to what you are saying. If a customer is paying a price from an existing window cleaner and you ask how much they are paying then deliberately undercut him that is not healthy, thats just damn right appauling.
If you think you need to be cheap to get a contract you won't last long in the commercial sector. I have operated in this sector for 15 years, have a large clientel and have NEVER sold myself cheap because I am not confident with the services I offer.
There is more to a job than being the cheapest.
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I think you should be competitive and undercut when ness. 15 years or not you still have to be competitive to get the work in
Hello monkey boy/ashcombe/fibreclean - still trolling?
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Hi Guys
we are active in the commercial sector and we are never the cheapest.
I just dont understand what is the point of working for buttons. If you
have a professional image and use professional equipment, you can charge professional prices.
When you charge professional prices you can live a professional lifestyle
( nice house nice car etc. ) or you can work for buttons, drive a crap
car and live in a crap house and come on this forum and moan about
all the window cleaners who charge to much.
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I think it's disgusting that fellow window cleaners (regardless whether domestic or commercial) would deliberately find out the competitions prices and then try and undercut them.
I think that the commercial market is more susceptable to losing their work because of these underhanded tactics. Though saying that, if you are doing a first class job then i think people are happy to stay with you.
For those that are saying it's healthy competition, all i can say is what utter B*****KS. It will do nothing but damage.
I am probably one of the most expensive trad w/cers in my area yet i still have no problem picking up new customers. I know that new w/cers have canvassed in lots of areas i cover because my customers tell me. Whether they have gone in a lot cheaper or not i don't know. What i do know is, i haven't lost one yet to anybody new starting up. (Must be doing something right) ;D
If people are unwittingly going in with ridiculously low prices that's completely different to deliberately undercutting but still just as damaging. These people need to do a bit of research into healthy pricing before starting up. Otherwise they'll be going for just a few weeks/months before wondering what they're doing. Out in all weathers working for peanuts and will just jack it in leaving their customers in the lurch.
There's a great difference between healthy competition and tax dodging coniving scumbags who would sell their own granny for a fix.
Lance
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Charge the right money, do a decent job and the customer will stay with you. None of my customers has gone over to someone else because they're a couple of £ cheaper and if they did GOOD RIDDANCE! There is plenty of work out there.
I watched a guy the other week with a WFP. By the time he'd set it up I'd have been in and out and onto the next job.
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I watched a guy the other week with a WFP. By the time he'd set it up I'd have been in and out and onto the next job.
;D That's so true though.
...and he charging twice as much.
You've got no worries mate. ;)
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I'd like your opinion on something: Quoted for a 6 bed house. Lady wanted in and out. Reckoned it'd take me ish 2 hours. I said £40. Got the job. Did the out then moved indoors...to find that the entire house had 2ndry glazing. I cleaned exterior of glazing only. Lady kicks up a fuss reckoning I should do both sides of 2ndry plus inside actual window. In other words job Xs 2. Told her that next time I'd do this but it'd be nearer £80. Thoughts?
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Always check first hand what the customer wants cleaning before you quote.
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Easy trap to fall into, but if the quote for outsides only is £20 then in and out should be at least £40 and with secondary then £80. But you should have checked it out first.
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In the news the other day is was quoted that the government predictions on the amount of workers, who would come from the new EC members countries, looking for work would only be 15000, but over 600000 came instead.
In the next 5 years that figure will rise to over 1 million, who are used to only earning 20% of what we do.
What effect do you think this might have on the window cleaning trade?
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Yeah I must admit that my eye wasn't on the ball and I hadn't reckoned on 2ndry...mind you she should have mentioned it.
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I watched a guy the other week with a WFP. By the time he'd set it up I'd have been in and out and onto the next job.
;D That's so true though.
...and he charging twice as much.
You've got no worries mate. ;)
You boy's just can't help yourselves can you ;)
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Re the East European influx:
Where I ply my trade (SW London) quite a few of my customers have building work done or their houses painted etc. In lots of cases this work is done by Polish people who by all accounts do a good job and charge substantially less than their English counterparts. Obviously if they can save £100s perhaps £1000s on a major project they will. But with W/C it's a relatively cheap expense and I just cannot believe dear old Mrs Prior who I've done for years would suddenly use Mr Szavetski because he offers to charge her £5 less. Let's not kid ourselves window cleaning isn't rocket science and anybody with a head for heights can do it. Your customers stay with you because they like and trust you.
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i agree most of my customers would stay with me becuase they can trust me and i do agood job etc but if they see another window cleaner doing a house opposite month in and month out and he charges less then its only normal to ask why i charge more . also you only have to look on the forum how many are looking for extra work going doing leafllet drops and canvassing work most dont ask the householder if they already have a window cleaner they just offer to give housholder a qoute this again only leads to costcutting . i know personally i am one of cheapest around where i live but if someone asks me for a price i always ask if they already have a window cleaner and why they want to get rid if they say its to get a cheaper price i always say i try not to take other peoples work . having said that i veiw commercial work differently and will give qoute to any who ask.
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Commercial work is totally different to domestic and in some ways is very vunerable to price wars.
Domestic however is a different ball game altogether.
For someone to knowingly undercut another window cleaner to take work from him only because of the cost issue is disgusting. People like this not only shoot themselves in the foot for undercutting but create all sorts of problems.
Trev
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but why in all the streets in all the world do they choose one of yours nobody likes this lets face it ..........and its hard not to loose it and just walk down and sort them out ,
once our twice m,bee
but i think constant under cutting is a big come on and deserves to be sorted out
esp if they do it on the fly ,the f,,,,,, sons of bitches these folk are spine less wonders if you ask me
>:(
but for every one of these type there is a fourm like this one full off decent guys,in which i have been well impressed with the standards and help and the good old feeling shared in this room
keep on getting into the corners that the cheap skates cant reach ;) you are on here becase you care for your fellow w,cleaner either that our just hiddin from the wife our rained off lol yours davis
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i have talked to my dad about pricing he has been window cleaning fom the 1950s, when he started he was in the national window cleaning association and they told there members what to charge infact when prices increased a notice went into local papers telling customers of said increase. they also covered other members work if he was off ill etc giving a percentage of the money to him till he got better. this stopped all undercutting and customers knew they where paying a regular price and not being conned. if only we could have a simmilar system now for domestic work . whats others thoughts on this?
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If their was a miniummn price. It would hopefully stop undercutting but I doubt it.
In my book undercutters are parasites.
Ive been cleaning windows for over 26yrs and I never have, no will I ever undercut another wc to get a job.
Someone asked me if I would clean his windows about 6 weeks ago while I was working, Do you have a wc I asked. Yes was his reply. You dont need me then, Stick with the chap you know. I replied.
The guy we have is rubbish he said.
I am good, No I am very good, In fact the best ever wc you are likley to ever see. But I come at a price, So you better stick with your So So wc and be happy that it does not cost you as much as it would for somebody like me.
He asked me just to have a look at his windows when I was passing through His village. His wc who is quite a good wc actually would not do a builders clean on the gable end of his house. He just did a normall job but it would not remove the grime/paint deposits on his windows.
In the end I said I could remove the grime, for the house it would be £60.00 and then £40.00 thereafter. The other chap only charged £20.00.
I did the job, I was not undercutting but I was giving the customer a service that the other wc was not willing to provide. I have recevied a text and 2 tel calls since doing the job cos He cannot beleive after all this time the windows are truly clean.
My customers pay me more then another wc because of this very fact. I clean windows to a very high standard and provide a quality service.
These Brain dead morons who undercut need to take a good hard look at themselves.
Nel.
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I agree that underhanded tactics to get work is wrong.
Deliberately finding out what someone else charges and quoting a cheaper price to get the job is not good business.
However, if you are out canvassing and someone says ""OK can you give me a price", Its a job that will take maybe 30 mins and you say £15. (In London)
THEN the housholder makes you aware that they actually do have a window cleaner and he charges £18 what would you do?
I would say to the housholder, "Are you happy with the work he does?" If they say yes then I'd likely leave it for the sake of peace. Though I'd be tempted to take it.
BUT if they said £20-£25 i'd think, well someone has been making GOOD money from this job, and if you price that high, its good while it lasts but that's the risk you take.
There's nothing wrong with charging the going rate. If someone comes along at the going rate, fair enough.
Even £15 is good money for a half hour job, lets face it.
Would you say that is the same as undercutting? I don't think so.
Then there is supply and demand,
At one time window cleaners were like gold dust. Now there are more and more window cleaners coming on the scene. Hence more supply. More supply, less demand.
You might get away charging extortionate prices to people who were at one time desperate for a window cleaner, but when others come on the scene, you run the risk of losing the job.
Be fair from the outset.
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I agree that underhanded tactics to get work is wrong.
Deliberately finding out what someone else charges and quoting a cheaper price to get the job is not good business.
However, if you are out canvassing and someone says ""OK can you give me a price", Its a job that will take maybe 30 mins and you say £15. (In London)
THEN the housholder makes you aware that they actually do have a window cleaner and he charges £18 what would you do?
I would say to the housholder, "Are you happy with the work he does?" If they say yes then I'd likely leave it for the sake of peace. Though I'd be tempted to take it.
I would just say, oh, sorry, I don't poach other window cleaners work, here's my card and if he ever lets you down give me a call, thanks!
BUT if they said £20-£25 i'd think, well someone has been making GOOD money from this job, and if you price that high, its good while it lasts but that's the risk you take.
There's nothing wrong with charging the going rate. If someone comes along at the going rate, fair enough.
Who determins what is the going rate?? If the customer was happy paying that price then so what? The fact that you charge almost 25% less is your problem and perhaps you should adjust what you're charging? Lets see, clean 8 houses at £25 earn £200 or carge the going rate and clean 8 houses at £15 and earn £120? Work smarter not harder.
Even £15 is good money for a half hour job, lets face it.
Would you say that is the same as undercutting? I don't think so.
Yes it is, I am sorry, but you have quoted less, been told and yet still took the work on. There really isn't any need to do that?
Then there is supply and demand,
At one time window cleaners were like gold dust. Now there are more and more window cleaners coming on the scene. Hence more supply. More supply, less demand.
You might get away charging extortionate prices to people who were at one time desperate for a window cleaner, but when others come on the scene, you run the risk of losing the job.
Be fair from the outset.
If people talked and worked together instead of working against each other we could all charge a good rate and enjoy the benefits that come with it. Instead of undercutting and robbing yourself of an income. There are exactly the same amount of hours and days in every week, how you chose to use them is down to you but remember this, you can't change yesterday but you can change tomorrow!
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Mark you say that their is a going rate.
I disagree there IS NO STANDARD RATE for window cleaners.
You charge the customer what you want to earn. Window cleaners are not working to a Goverment set Target on how much to earn per hour.
Its idiots who come into w/c and charge such a stupid price per hour that can make it difficult for the rest of us who take a great deal of pride in the job we do.
I lost one customer about 10yrs ago to another w/c who told my customer that I was charging more then the set amount for that property. She sacked me, Took this Idiot on as her w/c, She owed me for two window cleans but refused to pay me because in her veiw I had been ripping her off for years. I tried to explain to her that its up to each individual w/c how much they want to charge. If they agree you clean their windows, No one is forceing them to have them cleaned.
Two years later this same customer asked if I could start cleaning them again cos the other Idiot only cleaned them twice. I wont write my reply to her. But it felt good.
Nel.
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yip just as i thought it aint really down to the individual its the custumer loyalty thing
as i only did him the once it aint my fault but his,our in months that follow if this guy disapears it will be out with the big spoon for a hummble pie servin big time
if i take him back on
our should i kick him in to touch
once again you decide ;D
and we start all over again
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Ok,
I agree that ridiculously low pricing due doing it for beer money or because they're not paying tax is detrimental to the industry.
But..
To make my point clearer lets raise the stakes.
Another window cleaner is charging £100 for an easy job that takes an hour to do in an area where most decent window cleaners are earning £25 - £40 per hour.
Surely the ethics of not undercutting a fellow window cleaner have to be balanced against the ethics of seeing a fellow consumer get stung by someone who is obviously more greedy than fair because of the housholders ignorance.
There may not be a set in stone 'going rate' but there is an average price that a quality window cleaner will charge in that area, be it £25 or £40 per hour, whatever.
I charge more than most in the area. And yes I agree Neil,
its up to each individual w/c how much they want to charge. If they agree you clean their windows, No one is forceing them to have them cleaned.
All i'm saying is that if you choose to price very high, then you are running the risk of the customerer finding out that other good professional window cleaners are charging a lot less. So don't be surprised if they sack you on the basis of being too expensive!
My point is...
If you charge a high price, higher than the average window cleaner in your area (ie more than the going rate) then great while it lasts, but don't be surprised if someone comes along and quotes the going rate.
I don't make a practise of going out undercutting and wouldn't take work from a fellow window cleaner if i felt the price was in the realms of "fair".
But i'll give you a real life example:
I cold canvassed a commercial premises, a kids home, an orphanage.
The job takes 30 mins to do, 45 if you drag your heels. The lady there said give me a price, and without me asking or fishing she said to me "at the minute we pay £75 per clean."
Now this is a run down, shabby kids home run by a charity. So are you telling me that I should reason, "well it wouldn't be right to take work from a fellow window cleaner?"
I could have said i can do it for £60 and likely still got the job, but instead I said £35 and got the job. Why?
Because i don't think its right to expoit people's ignorance. Even £35 for half an hour's work is cracking money, and I wouln't normally charge that much. But in view of what they were paying i'm doing them a favour and saving them a bit of money that I'm sure they can put to better use!
If someone calls by and quotes them £20, well so be it.
On the other hand there is a market for high pricing. Why do people buy designer clothes for example, why do people buy Ionics ;D ?
High pricing gives a buyer confidence, and gives a good image to show off to friends or whatever, and if that's why the customer chooses to pay a high price well fair enough. But if that's the case, then why would they accept a lower quote?
Window cleaning is good money, but lets keep it real.
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Ok,
All i'm saying is that if you choose to price very high, then you are running the risk of the customerer finding out that other good professional window cleaners are charging a lot less. So don't be surprised if they sack you on the basis of being too expensive!
My point is...
If you charge a high price, higher than the average window cleaner in your area (ie more than the going rate) then great while it lasts, but don't be surprised if someone comes along and quotes the going rate.
Window cleaning is good money, but lets keep it real.
Mark you mention some good and valid ponts, I dont want to get into the ethicel issue on cleaning certain properties that are run by charites lower then another w/c.
For me my work is nearly all domestic. My prices are not extortionate and I am not ripping people off. In every single area I clean their are other w/c cleaning their as well. The estate I have been doing this week their are 5 w/c that go on there. Two w/c actually live on the estate. All are cheaper then me, Two have deliberately tried to undercut me and force me out. I am still there with the most work on that estate. WHY?
The customers are not ignorant of what the other w/c charge, they are well aware that they can save a little bit of money if they switched w/c.
So why have they not done so? They appreciate the quality of service I give and they are happy that I clean their windows to a high standard.
I have 8 customers on one culdesac where this w/c lives, My customers all know him as a neighbour, He has tried desparetly to get there custom, but I have not lost a single customer to him. WHY?
Their are w/c who are more expensive then me, I worked with a freind on his round this week and a lot of his prices are much better then mine.
You have to also put things into context, Wfp has made my earnings go up dramatically due to me being a lot faster. But I still price up New customers if I was doing it Trad. Last year I was earning around £20 an hour Trad w/c on average. So That tells you how cheap some of the w/c are up here. I now earn on average £30 an hour so I would not call that extortionate.
Nel.
I think there is a lot of work out there but people are just Lazy it is easier to undercut somebody then putting the effort into getting new work.
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Neil
How would you suggest a wfp cleaner should charge, because on large properties a wfp cleaner is 4 or 5 times faster than a trad cleaner.
So if the children's home is going to take 30 mins to clean by trad methods and you are charging them £35.00 and a wfp cleaner comes along and works out that he can clean this properties in half the time, that the trad cleaner can, so should he then charge half the trad cleaners rate or the same.
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Maybe not half, but certainly a lot less.
Why should he charge more per hour, just to try and recuperate his costs?
It was his choice.
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Good morning squeaky,
If it was me I would charge the same if not more, fancy a merc van next year ;D
Trev
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Neil
How would you suggest a wfp cleaner should charge, because on large properties a wfp cleaner is 4 or 5 times faster than a trad cleaner.
So if the children's home is going to take 30 mins to clean by trad methods and you are charging them £35.00 and a wfp cleaner comes along and works out that he can clean this properties in half the time, that the trad cleaner can, so should he then charge half the trad cleaners rate or the same.
Hi William.
First off I can only do a direct comparision with how fast I was as a trad w/c and how fast I am now at wfp. I will never ever be 4 or 5 times faster then trad on any of my work or any new work that comes my way. As a Trad w/c I was quite rapid.
So over the course of a days work I do clean more houses so I earn more money. But it would rank of gross STUPIDITY if I was to reduce my prices now because of my investment in wfp. Of what possible benefit would I gain from the investment I made of K15 if I was to start reduceing my prices.
The customer gains by now haveing her upvc cleaned for Free. It would of cost them a small fortune to have it cleaned manually. The time it takes is Irrelevant to a degree.
But what if wfp gets banned in the future, if we have a severe drout and there are stand pipes in the streets. You may have to go back to Trad w/c so you have to keep your prices inline with Trad w/c.
AS Trev would say work smatter not harder.
Nel.
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Maybe not half, but certainly a lot less.
Why should he charge more per hour, just to try and recuperate his costs?
It was his choice.
trouble is,if wfp users go cheaper,it will put trad users in a worse position.I say keep it the same across the board
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A very good point fastone. I never even thought of it along those lines. So wfp is doing Squeaks a big favour, He will not have to reduce his prices to compete.
How about giving us wfp some thanks Squeaks as we are helping to maintain your living standards.
Nel.
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I agree the price should be the same what ever method you use.
They are still getting the same job done ( Windows Cleaned ) so why drop the price.
WFP costs a lot more money to get kitted out and then the running costs, larger van, new poles, resin, filters, hose connectors wear out fast, pole hoses, the list goes on.
Its the same in a lot of trades.
Take carpenters you get one using hand tools and one using power tools the one using power tools does not do it cheaper because he can get done quicker.
If that was the case he would stay with the hand tools.
Paul
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A very good point fastone. I never even thought of it along those lines. So wfp is doing Squeaks a big favour, He will not have to reduce his prices to compete.
How about giving us wfp some thanks Squeaks as we are helping to maintain your living standards.
Nel.
You're amusing. ::)
I won't ever have to reduce my prices anyway.
Wfp users WILL without doubt, it's being picked up on by the cheap cowboys, and a price war is looming.
Me? I can still charge the same (and more than you), because a proper job done by hand will be harder to find, and worth more.
Why do you think Rolls Royces cost so much?
Bulit properly by hand, not machine. ;)
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Trouble is Squeaky,
Rolls Royce is a dying breed, how many do you see out and about nowadays, there are more executive/prestigue cars out there that people choose that are built by machines.
Trev
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Hi everyone,
I have quickly scanned some of the posts on this thread (as I am running behind time lol). I do not really want to argue points, but I would like to put a valid point to you.
In reality, I believe wfp should charge slightly more than traditional, why!!! Well it is not the same job anymore, the customer is also getting their frames cleaned and even doors (if you work like me). The traditional cleaner nearly always doubles his price when the client wants their frames cleaned, because he classes this as an extra, whereas with wfp, it is standard (again if you work like me). In addition, the customers tend to go for a longer gap between cleans, because, yes here we go, their windows do stay cleaner for longer. Plus the running costs are a great deal higher for wfp uses.
All my customers are happy with what they are paying, as they believe the service is worth it. I have had loads of WCs try to undercut me, however I have not lost one client, which is really down to all the customers having bad experiences with window cleaners and now they have the service they want, they are reluctant to risk loosing it.
Many Thanks
Andrew
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Mark you say that their is a going rate.
I disagree there IS NO STANDARD RATE for window cleaners.
You charge the customer what you want to earn. Window cleaners are not working to a Goverment set Target on how much to earn per hour.
Its idiots who come into w/c and charge such a stupid price per hour that can make it difficult for the rest of us who take a great deal of pride in the job we do.
I lost one customer about 10yrs ago to another w/c who told my customer that I was charging more then the set amount for that property. She sacked me, Took this Idiot on as her w/c, She owed me for two window cleans but refused to pay me because in her veiw I had been ripping her off for years. I tried to explain to her that its up to each individual w/c how much they want to charge. If they agree you clean their windows, No one is forceing them to have them cleaned.
Two years later this same customer asked if I could start cleaning them again cos the other Idiot only cleaned them twice. I wont write my reply to her. But it felt good.
Nel.
I would have done the clean but only once. I wou;ld have quoted a rate for a first clean that would have recouped the unpaid two cleans and given me a decent earner for the clean I did that day. I would also have insisted on payment in advance or at the start of the job by cash (to prevent her stopping the cheque). I would have done a proper, decent job. Then I would have walked.
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I can see the advantages of WFPs but for me the big drawbacks are: In and around Putney where the hell do I park as it's 99.99% residents parking only and secondly: you can't use them indoors. I reckon that if you're doing conservatories and loads of leaded glass they're a Godsend but alas for a poor SW London W/C it's ladders, blade, scrim and lots of shanks pony....ho hum!
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Hi Simon,
Just a thought but I have certain jobs which require me to park on red or yellow lines. I spoke t the borough council and they gave me a permit to park relating to work. I think if memory serves me correctly I get up to 2 hours before I have to move on.
Maybe worth speaking to your council. I do work like this is SW19.
Best wishes,
Trev
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Simon
When I first started out, all of my customers lived on streets that you could not park on, the nearest I could park was about 1/2 a mile away.
What I used was a garden trolley which held 8 x 25 litres of pure water plus pump hose and all the other equipment that you need.
I was thinking of converting a tricycle to carry all of these thing instead, I might still do and start selling them to london window cleaners ;D
As for working indoors then nobody uses a wfp system. You keep getting the carpets wet. ;D
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Many young guys starting out, fail to get their sums right in the begining.
Don't forget these guys are totally inexperienced. They look at their hourly rate and compare it to their last job and think wow!. They look at it as a job, not a business.
They fail to appreciate the true costs of running a business. They forget about the time spent collecting, canvassing, doing the paper work, being rained off, holiday /sickness pay. And that's before their actual expenses.
It's easier for those of us that know about forums like this one, but the majority of guys out there don't.
They may not be deliberately trying to undercut on prices but don't know any better.
There is one thing for certain, they will learn. Human nature dictates, when they realise that other guys are getting twice as much for doing the same job. their own efforts are undervalued. Do any of you know of anyone that works for half the pay and is happy to do it? If he is at the time, it won't be for long, people arn't made that way. The problem is that it causes us problems whilst they wisen up. Dai
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Couldn't agree more Dai. Also once you start charging £10 for a 3 bed house and then a year or 2 on realise that the right price is £25-30 or whatever you can't just suddenly up the anti.
I learnt the hard way...!!!
Personally I reckon £25 -£30 p/h is fair money if the house is straight forward (I know lots charge more!). The trouble is that customers seem to think that because you're charging them £25 for an hours work that this means that you're earning £200 a day (it goes without saying they assume you don't pay tax) and £200 a day is probably more than their old man is on. Certainly for myself I reckon I actually "work" 7 hrs a day (less in winter) with the rest of the time going from job to job, waiting for customer to arrive back home and of course the odd person who's forgotten and not at home (really get cross when this happens).
Also a problem I'm encountering more and more of late is BT1571 or other another answering machines...I leave messages but does the call get returned?...nah!...or seldom. Any thoughts out their as to how to get around this?
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simon
Nearly everone has a mobile phone, you could get a mobile with enough free minutes on it, so it won't cost you anything to call them.
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Hi williamx, I've tried that but find that more often or not the phone is either switched off or again am diverted to voice-mail. I far prefer to make appointments but am seriously thinking of just-turning-up and if they're in great they get their windows cleaned and if they're not in...well they don't! At least this way avoids making 20-30 phone calls a night and obviously no time tables.
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Simon
You could try giving your customers a list of what dates you will be cleaning their windows in the future, only give them the next 2 or 3 cleaning dates.
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The wisdom of Soloman....thank you Sir a good idea and I'll try it.
Best regards
simon