Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: andy roberts on June 26, 2006, 02:38:17 pm
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I have now had 4 emails back from various carpet manufacturers regarding the agitation of pre sprays that is commonly practised by many. All 4 (& im waiting for 3 others to respond) have been TOTALLY AGAINST rotary agitation & wouldn't recommed anyone agitating carpet fibres in this way as this may cause a 'matting' effect (their words). Brintons went further by saying that they would recommend the use of GENTLE MANUAL agitation to enable the pre spray to penetrate the base of the fibre but only in stained localised areas and not the whole carpet. All 4 recommended HWE but where against bonnet cleaning.
3 stated that if they were to prove that aggresive agitation had caused irreversable pile damage and a claim was being made, then the customers guarantee would be effected.
Reading past posts on here, it has always concerned me that this would appear common work practise but the risk of causing pile/fibre damage (especially using rotary machines) is high.
Im expecting some strong comments back on this subject, but you cant argue with the companies who actually produce carpeting.
Regards Andy
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hi Andy did you ask about the environdri and the sebo duo type of agitation and what effect they had ?
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Mecanichal aggitation amoung CC is fairly new, 5 years ago any newbies to this game would not have used a sebo or enviordri they would have used a pile brush as this is what they would have been taught, its since the use of ms products that machine aggitation has become big business, so maybe we have to thank the likes of one step and solution!!probabbly 8 out of 10 CC now use some form of machine aggitation, the same 8 out of 10 would have just used a pile brush 5 or 10 years ago.
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yes nick when i posted i had dry cleaning in mind!!? but fair point
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you should have mentioned dry cleaning then ???
not that you do any :o
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Peter
Ive emailed them again asking about sebo duo etc. waiting a reply.
Regards Andy
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Now had 7 emails back from manufacturers ALL stating that they would not endorse the use of any aggitation of their carpet fibres.
Ref Sebo Duo & others sim. - "we recommend the hot water extraction method of cleaning administered by professionals who have attained industry standard. We continue to advise you that we do not and never have recommended aggitating (whether machine - no matter how they are engineered or manual) carpet fibres. We maintain that this action is very likely to cause permenant fibre damage."
Waiting to here from others. Keep you updated.
Regards Andy.
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The manufacturers had better tell that to any makers of vacumns to take off thier beater bars as i am sure they might well aggitate the fibres as they are hoovering.
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So, it looks like all of the manufactures of cleaning solutions are completly wrong in the info they give out :-\
infact are all the c/c instructors wrong also, are the ncca and iicrc wrong in the reccomendations of aggitation in the cleaning pie? apparenttly they must be, well according to this latest info.
One good thing , I can save a bit of time on the carpet cleaning "not having to aggitate" ;D
Having said that dont think i shall stop aggitation,
dont think i would get any of my customers back for repeat buisness, on same custy ringing up to come and reclean ;D
Geoff
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The manufacturers had better tell that to any makers of vacumns to take off thier beater bars as i am sure they might well aggitate the fibres as they are hoovering.
Vacuum cleaners of this nature are designed to 'bring the pile up' and encourage as much dirt/grit to be successfully recovered. Carpet manufacturers recommend this type of vacumm cleaner as apposed to others and they also say that this type of vacuuming should be done once a day to help maintain wear and appearance.
Regards Andy
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So, it looks like all of the manufactures of cleaning solutions are completly wrong in the info they give out :-\
infact are all the c/c instructors wrong also, are the ncca and iicrc wrong in the reccomendations of aggitation in the cleaning pie? apparenttly they must be, well according to this latest info.
I would feel more confident in going with what the manufacturers state before so called cleaning instructors or any National industry body. When you think about it, its just common sense.
regards Andy
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Andy, I do not wish to sound irritated, but , Quote, " so called cleaning instuctors of any National body"
does sound to me a little harsh and condesending, I am sure that the vast majority of instucters are well qualified, have a wealth of experience and know their job.
yor reply seems to give the opinion that, this may not be the case, oh dear . What are we to do?
what are all the newbies going to make of this, Instuctors that dont know what they are talking about, ;) chemical manufacturers , that dont really know the effects of their reccomendations ;)
Perhaps Andy , You could start a c/c course to show us all the best and only way ;D
Geoff
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Common sense says to me that if you can dry vacuum a carpet every day with a rotating brush, it is also ok to agitate during occasional cleaning.
No disrespect to the people you've been talking to, but I'll go with Woolsafe, the IICRC and the NCCA's technical cleaning knowledge on this one.
Carpet manufacturers are not necessarily experts in carpet cleaning. In fact most manufacturers will consult a recognised body such as the NCCA/IICRC/Woolsafe for advise on cleaning.
Are you sure the people you are talking to don't think you are only talking about rotary agitation?
If a carpet manufacturer stipulates that any form of agitation will void their warranty then that's a differet matter. But until then, I'll stick with getting the best results possible by agitating using industry recognised methods.
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Common sense says to me that if you can dry vacuum a carpet every day with a rotating brush, it is also ok to agitate during occasional cleaning.
No disrespect to the people you've been talking to, but I'll go with Woolsafe, the IICRC and the NCCA's technical cleaning knowledge on this one.
If a carpet manufacturer stipulates that any form of agitation will void their warranty then that's a differet matter. But until then, I'll stick with getting the best results possible by agitating using industry recognised methods.
A dry vacuum cleaner with a rotating brush touches the pile SURFACE at low RPM.
Ive been 'talking' now to 11 major manufacturers who are roughly saying the same as Brintons did in my first post.
Im not telling anyone to stop doing what there doing or being over reactive, Im simply putting facts to this forum for constructive and friendly debate. Ive researched the facts, got the evidence required and have presented them to you.
Stick to what you know if you so wish, but my men have now stopped aggitating on the advise of carpet manufacturers. I dont want a counter claim for negligence.
Regards Andy
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http://www.brintons.net/cgi-bin/viewPage.cgi?linkId=866&languageId=1
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I would have to disagree concerning the speed at which the brushes on a top quality vaccunm spin.A sebo upright has an independent moter which spins alot faster than what i would call low rpm. I do agree however that the use of a rotery machine on a piled carpet is not acceptable.
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I have just read the link to brintons.
But i am trying hard to understand the logic of hwe method 1.
IT says that because your jets may get blocked with shampoo it would result in a large residue being left in the carpet.
Or have i got that wrong ???
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Brintons will also tell you that their carpets never suffer from pile reversal ::) When we all know that they do.
Agitation is a intergral part of practicaly all cleaning systems and is a necessary part of the cleaning pie to obtain best results.
Put simply no manufacturer will openly say it's necesary as some cleaner may over agitate causing damage, but they know full well it is necessary.So listen to the cleaning professionals and not the salesmen and stop worrying ;)
Incidently I would quite happily use good recommended rotation system (and do) on Brintons carpets or any body elses for that matter with no ill effects and with excellent results.
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does anyone give a rats bottom what the carpet manufacturers say ::) ::)
all they are interested in doing is covering there own backs, of course they are not going to recommend agitation, just imagine if they said it was OK to rotary scrub a carpet, it would open a floodgate of claims for damage caused by over zealous use of scrubbing ( because they said rotaries are OK)
and in the end do they want carpets to be cleaned or would they prefer them to be replaced ::) ::) ::)
Mike
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Quite right ;D
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If the carpet manufacturers know as much about cleaning carpets as upholstery manufacturers know about cleaning their fabrics, god help us.
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Brintons will also tell you that their carpets never suffer from pile reversal ::) When we all know that they do.
This is incorrect. On most Brintons samples especially velvet pile they warn about the possibility of pile reversal and the fact this is a charactistic of this type of finish and dont therefore guarantee against it.
Regards Andy
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does anyone give a rats bottom what the carpet manufacturers say ::) ::)
all they are interested in doing is covering there own backs,
Manufacturers do intense testing on all their fibres before production that includes the effect on this type of pressure. To not take their advise on issues relating to your industry is foolish.
They are not just covering their own backs ( I agree) but they are advising as a result of many years of carpet fibre testing and knowledge about different fibre compositions, cleaning methods which includes aggresive pile aggitation leading to matting & possibly pile fusian.
Regards Andy
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So how come Brintons recommend dry carpet cleaning and dry foam with cylindrical brushes if agitation is so bad for their carpets?
I think we're getting rotary agitation and cylindrical agitation mixed up here.
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So how come Brintons recommend dry carpet cleaning and dry foam with cylindrical brushes if agitation is so bad for their carpets?
I think we're getting rotary agitation and cylindrical agitation mixed up here.
I'm talking about rotary machine agitation, however an email Ive had back from Greg Harrison from Brintons (& others but his was the first so Im quoting him)states what Ive said in past posts regarding general agitation, manual & otherwise. My original enquiry was just about using machinery but they then included manual agitation and would only say to lightly agitate in localised areas.
Regards Andy.
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Carpetmate
Just out of interest have you ever cleaned a carpet yourself? and have you ever done any courses? I suspect not.
Professionals in this industry will take each carpet on its own merits, then decide what type of agitation is necessary (if any) dependent on their findings. Most carpets that are cleaned can safely have cylindrical or rotary agitation without causing problems. There's just not enough speed to do so. Yes, if some newbie or someone who doesnt know what they are doing becuse they've never been trained, who uses some wizzy dizzy thousand mile an hour agitator thats just come out, on a almost new carpet or on a loop or whatever, whatever, then there COULD be a problem, yes.
Why are your guys not agitating either? do they not know how to clean a carpet too? If there were any problems dont you think that professionals would advise against them??
Get real, take some courses, get experienced and yes Brintons are covering their bums (like everyone is saying). Its the same with upholstery. 90% of manufacurers say to dry clean only, when we know that 90% of fabrics can be wet cleaned. They dont want any hassle - GET IT YET?
No disrespect, Im sure your a great carpet fitter.
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Got to agree there CArpetmate im not sure how long you have been cleaning carpets but manufacturers do put these things on paper to put the willies up people, how many times have you seen Dry Clean Only on upholstery when you know damm well you can wet clean it?? this is to safeguard their own backs when customers whack a soaking wet sponge over it, As with pile reversal i am a trained manufacturer fault technician and have carried out sub contract work for stoddard templeton pile reversal is a phonenhem ::) some companies still believe its to do with static electric but know one knows excatly what it is.
Nick
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well said mike . incidentally unless i am mistaken on the brintons link it is recommending agitation for dry cleaning, if used for dry cleaning it can surely be used for wet with the same brushes.
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I think carpetmate is one of those people who likes to build up loads of posts ::)
he is averaging 5 a day since may 28th :o
After a bit of time the novelty will where off and he will dissapear like most of the fast posters :P :P
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Carpetmate
Just out of interest have you ever cleaned a carpet yourself? and have you ever done any courses? I suspect not.
Why are your guys not agitating either? do they not know how to clean a carpet too? If there were any problems dont you think that professionals would advise against them??
Get real, take some courses, get experienced and yes Brintons are covering their bums (like everyone is saying). Its the same with upholstery. 90% of manufacurers say to dry clean only, when we know that 90% of fabrics can be wet cleaned. They dont want any hassle - GET IT YET?
No disrespect, Im sure your a great carpet fitter.
As a professional I try and answer questions in a polite and constructive way, however the way and tone some posts are written its quite difficult to give constructive replies - but I'll try. Answering your questions as follows:-
I have cleaned carpets and yes we have had instructors from Prochem come to Jersey to give us an induction course on the machinery & equipment we purchased. We also did the carpet & upholstery cleaning courses here. Yes I had to pay extra for this.
My chaps are not aggitating for the reasons Ive stated in previous posts.
Whislt it is very rare that I work on site whether fitting or cleaning (I have another business to look after too) I have 21 years working in the carpet industry from sales, measuring, planning, fitting & more recently cleaning. Ive attended numerous courses over the years including manaufacturers courses. I dont however profess to know everything, Im still learning as you are.
Yes I like to think Im a good fitter although I dont do alot these days. As Im getting older Im getting slower.
I hope Ive answered all your questions however if you have any more personal ones then I would please ask you to email where I will respond in full.
Regards Andy
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Carpetmate
Just out of interest have you ever cleaned a carpet yourself? and have you ever done any courses? I suspect not.
Why are your guys not agitating either? do they not know how to clean a carpet too? If there were any problems dont you think that professionals would advise against them??
Get real, take some courses, get experienced and yes Brintons are covering their bums (like everyone is saying). Its the same with upholstery. 90% of manufacurers say to dry clean only, when we know that 90% of fabrics can be wet cleaned. They dont want any hassle - GET IT YET?
No disrespect, Im sure your a great carpet fitter.
As a professional I try and answer questions in a polite and constructive way, however the way and tone some posts are written its quite difficult to give constructive replies - but I'll try. Answering your questions as follows:-
What did you expect putting a post like this on a CC forum with guys who have 100's of years expierence between them ??? ::)
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I think carpetmate is one of those people who likes to build up loads of posts ::)
he is averaging 5 a day since may 28th :o
After a bit of time the novelty will where off and he will dissapear like most of the fast posters :P :P
If there is a problem with me posting then I shall refrain from doing so. Like everyone Im here to give advise and receive advise and to share my experiences. I maybe a so called fast poster that is because I am a strong character and have knowledge of the carpet industry to share. I just wish people would be more diligent with the contents of their postings - offending people doesn't get you anywhere.
Regards Andy
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I have cleaned carpets and yes we have had instructors from Prochem come to Jersey to give us an induction course on the machinery & equipment we purchased. We also did the carpet & upholstery cleaning courses here.
With all due respect, all some of us are saying is, by disregarding completely what professional cleaners have to say is a tad insulting. Imagine if a cleaner told you how best to lay a carpet after fitting one for the first time!
You must know a lot about carpet fitting but you cannot instantly blend into carpet cleaning professing instant knowledge.
Dont be too sensitive Carpetmate. Take some purely constructive advice, give it time, and learn all about what can be a complex industry (and take with a pinch of salt what manufacturers say - you'll realise this eventually). We are not insulting you, but perhaps you could go about it writing statements with a bit more thought!
:P
Regards
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Use a truckmount and you wont have to agitate again, ever!! Best, Dave.......and we wouldnt have had to go through all the above....
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[Woops, dont know what happened there!.....]
Carpetmate
Unfortunately having initial training by a manufacturer isnt enough. Yes its great to learn how to use a machine (theirs) but thats it! You need so much more, along with experience over years to know whats what. But it doesnt stop there, everone keeps learning even after 20yrs.
So with all due respect, all some of us are saying is, by disregarding completely what professional cleaners have to say is a tad insulting. Imagine if a cleaner told you how best to lay a carpet after fitting one for the first time!
You must know a lot about carpet fitting but you cannot instantly blend into carpet cleaning professing instant knowledge.
Dont be too sensitive Carpetmate. Take some purely constructive advice, give it time, and learn all about what can be a complex industry (and take with a pinch of salt what manufacturers say - you'll realise this eventually). We are not insulting you, but perhaps you could go about it writing statements with a bit more thought!
Dave
Nice one, like it!
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Formula6
Withour wanting to prolong the debate you would appear not to have read my previous posts diligently. You are coming accross on your posts ominously, which im sure your not.
What you state in your last post is just reminisng on what Ive covered already so Im not repeating myself.
Regards Andy
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Dave
I know you agree with me on this one (thats a first)
TM might be an option will have to put accross a good case for one in our next board meeting.
oooppps another post Ive written!
Regards Andy
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Too much spare time on your hands....Go out and clean :P :P
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Too much spare time on your hands....Go out and clean :P :P
Fortunatly, I am well off so I dont have to if I dont want to. Thats why my company employs people.
It makes me a bit suspious of the cleaners on here who like to throw stones hiding behind hidden emails, names or age etc. One cleaner professed to know everything at the grand old age of 22. ;D
Regards Andy
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Depends how young they started. but i do know what you mean ::)
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Just for the record, Dry Fusion claim that their system (rotary bonnet) is endorsed by Brintons for use on their products.
Nobby
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Too much spare time on your hands....Go out and clean :P :P
It makes me a bit suspious of the cleaners on here who like to throw stones hiding behind hidden emails, names or age etc. One cleaner professed to know everything at the grand old age of 22. ;D
Regards Andy
Just for your information, I am not 'hiding' behind anything. I am in a predicament at present and cannot legally reveal myself for a few months yet, or I'll be in trouble. Believe you me I would like to fill out my profile like most people. It will be winter time before that happens though.
Regards
p.s. Im 43 and certainly do not profess to know everything (that's impossible). And if someone gave me some good advice even if I thought I knew some of it, I would take it on board and not scorn at it!......I like to mostly learn by other peoples mistakes ;)
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If there is a problem with me posting then I shall refrain from doing so. Like everyone Im here to give advise and receive advise and to share my experiences. I maybe a so called fast poster that is because I am a strong character and have knowledge of the carpet industry to share. I just wish people would be more diligent with the contents of their postings - offending people doesn't get you anywhere.
Regards Andy
andy, in one of your earlier replies you did infact. in my opinon, offend all of the c/c instucters out there,
a contradiction to what you have quoted here
Geoff
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Why would you be a fast poster? you only post half a day ???
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carpetmate,
My point was, if you try and make a claim against Brintons for a fault on their carpets they will deny that their carpets suffer from any kind of pile reversal or shading.(no carpet manufacturer will accept this as a carpet fault,where as a few years ago they did and replaced carpets affected)
I have had this discussion with a bod from Brintons a few years ago at a cleaning show and he was absolutely adamant that Brintons do not suffer from this problem you may as well have been banging your head against a brick wall as he repeated the company script over and over again.
One of the cleaning supplies company's (that will remain secret) thought they had cracked the pile reversal problem and could rectify with one of their machines and brought Brintons in to inspect a carpet they were testing it on. After intial success on one piece it failed miserably on another and the problem remains a spooky mystery ;D
As for cleaning with recommended rotary's , as I said earlier no problem ;)
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I said in my very first post that I would receive strong comments about this subject and I wasn't wrong.
I have now confirmation back from 11 manufacturers regarding the use of rotary aggitation. All DO NOT endorse its use.
Thank you also to the 52 emails I've had from cleaners in this forum supporting my views - very encouraging & overwhelming. For different reasons I fully understand why you couldn't post.
I've put forward an issue that has been, on the whole, debated well with odd unprofessional remarks made by the minority, obviously people who are strong and set in their own ways and vigourously defend any change in working practise.
Im also well aware that alot of cleaners defending this issue are suppliers of these machines so have a vested interest.
Fundamentally, it is important for all to take and act upon advise given unless of course the person does not wish to improve standards. Evidently, it would appear that some cleaners would rather risk damaging their customers carpet for short term gain.
I will not be responding to any more posts on here due to the fact that Im having to repeat myself with cleaners who fail to diligently read previous posts, however should anyone care to email me, I will happy to respond to any question.
Regards Andy
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not a supplier andy just a very experienced carpet cleaner who used to also carry out reporrts on carpet manufacturer claims
Shame the 50 odd CC that you say contacted you supporting your views felt they could not post on here we could have offered help and advice on how to approach the subject.
The rest of your post regarding improving standards, risking damage and short term gain are an insult to the professional CC whose these systems and does not deserve a response.
By the way why don't you post the details of the 11. ::)
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So how come Brintons recommend dry carpet cleaning and dry foam with cylindrical brushes if agitation is so bad for their carpets?
I think we're getting rotary agitation and cylindrical agitation mixed up here.
I'm talking about rotary machine agitation, however an email Ive had back from Greg Harrison from Brintons (& others but his was the first so Im quoting him)states what Ive said in past posts regarding general agitation, manual & otherwise. My original enquiry was just about using machinery but they then included manual agitation and would only say to lightly agitate in localised areas.
Regards Andy.
Andy,
So why didn't you entitle the thread, 'ROTARY AGITATION'
Also, it does not make sense that Brintons on the one hand are telling you to only lightly (manually) agitate in localised areas, when their website advises the following:
CLEANING SYSTEMS
Absorbent powder
The absorbent powder compound is spread evenly over the surface of the carpet and brushed in with cylindrically rotating brushes, which help restore surface appearance
Once the powder is dry it is vacuumed away. This is a very good system, which does not wet the carpet, and is suitable for use on Brintons products. It is not a deep cleaning system but is very efficient at removing oily or greasy type stains.
Seems like they are simply covering @rse
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If I caught anyone of my guys rotary agitating pre-sprays in a carpet then they would be sacked on the spot.
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yeh yeh course you would sack them on the spot, for what doing the job correctly
Geoff
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Its not correct. I have read the above and go with silent majority gwrightson. If you wanna know how to clean a carpet without rotary agitation then I'll show you my boy
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silent majority "yawn , yawn ,yawn " amazing how the silent , stay silent , strange isnt it ,
for what reason are they staying silent? do they not want other c/c to think they are doing an inferior job?
or is a just a number plucked from outer space? perhaps they themselves have never even bothered with aggitation? perhaps they are splash and dash ?
Who knows, only the silent majority?
ps. i dont use a rotory incidently? but it aint because of the reasons your endorsing, MY SON
Geoff
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What a rude, self opinionated little s--t you are! I've been in the business 28 years without agitating - what aload of b-ll--ks!
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Im sorry you feel like that, I am merely expessing my opinion, as you so kindly put it!!
at least I am not been insulting,
as for been in the buisness 28 yrs, well done and good luck for your future years,
just one point , numerous carpet cleaners have been in the buisness just as long, if not longer, numerous instucters have been in the buisness a long time, with a wealth of knowledge and experience, and what you are percieved to be saying is they are all in the wrong.
as a matter of interest , where did you get your training from?
Geoff
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Go and learn how to clean a carpet and stop asking me stupid questions.