Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Rich Wilts on December 30, 2015, 01:34:04 pm
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Ive been really surprised by some figures I've been looking at in the last 4 months of trading.
I happily offloaded someone who had been working with me 4 months ago and have been comparing my profit margins over this period compared to the same period last year.
Since working by myself again my profit margin has increased by 26%. Thats remarkable. It should be the other way round. I know I was undoubtedly paying him too much, but it never dawned on me that it could actually be costing me money.
I put it down to two things.
a) He was about as useful and reliable as a chocolate fireguard. Okay there were advantages, such as gutter cleaning, it was always safer with two of us there. But he was a pot-head. Even if not smoking that gear it still screws your head so you're bleedin' useless sober.
b) I work bloody hard by myself, so anyone working alongside me automatically lowers the average hourly rate.
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
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Matt - I agree, some of your issues are that any 2 man teams will not produce the same profit return on day to day rounds as 2 single operatives - a single employee is a step up in business turnover but not as high in profits, for a start you now are paying someone 4 weeks wages while not actually producing anything, but when your off your outgoing are zero as your not drawing a wage, ( re do your figures taking into account some drawings ( say £300 per week ) and see the difference. The percentage may not be so great but the actual figure should be higher with an employee ( for example - sole trader turnover £35k profit £25k sole trader plus 1 turnover £65k profit £35k ) that's still an extra 10k to you.
Darran
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
Yes that's pretty much spot on for us - the only exceptions are are commercial works and conny roof / sfg cleaning where the van is at one spot for an hour plus as two men can work fast together
Darran
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could just be £300 conservatories have doubled your income.
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;D
could just be £300 conservatories have doubled your income.
;D
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Tripled thank you very much :)
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
I must be doing something wrong me and my lad don't do anywhere near 500 a day :'(
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
I must be doing something wrong me and my lad don't do anywhere near 500 a day :'(
What did you do as a single operator compared to your two man days - I'm pretty sure the split percentage would the similar.
I don't know what your takings are per day or if your WFP or trad but we work 8 to 3.30 ( give or take ) if flexible 30 min breaks
Darran
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Be worse when the new rules on pensions come into effect
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Ive been really surprised by some figures I've been looking at in the last 4 months of trading.
I happily offloaded someone who had been working with me 4 months ago and have been comparing my profit margins over this period compared to the same period last year.
Since working by myself again my profit margin has increased by 26%. Thats remarkable. It should be the other way round. I know I was undoubtedly paying him too much, but it never dawned on me that it could actually be costing me money.
I put it down to two things.
a) He was about as useful and reliable as a chocolate fireguard. Okay there were advantages, such as gutter cleaning, it was always safer with two of us there. But he was a pot-head. Even if not smoking that gear it still screws your head so you're bleedin' useless sober.
b) I work bloody hard by myself, so anyone working alongside me automatically lowers the average hourly rate.
If you've gone back to working on your own, what did you do with all the excess work you had that two of you done ?
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Im £3,000.00 behind ;)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1451513856_Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 22.09.09.png)
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Wanna buy some work in Basingstoke? It pulls in £45.00 an hour ;)
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Sounds like you need to employ...... ;D
Darran
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Im £3,000.00 behind ;)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1451513856_Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 22.09.09.png)
Whats the nett figure you're behind ?
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Wanna buy some work in Basingstoke? It pulls in £45.00 an hour ;)
Listen if you can provide three days a week at £45 an hour, i'll come to Basingstoke and stay in digs for two nights.
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It's for sale. Probably.
I wouldn't be working alongside someone, certainly not someone who's self-employed.
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Im £3,000.00 behind ;)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1451513856_Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 22.09.09.png)
Whats the nett figure you're behind ?
That could mean a number of things, be clearer.
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
£700 vs. £500 doesn't tell the full story though. I don't suppose two smaller vans cost twice as much to run as one larger van, but I'm guessing it must be 175%ish.
As a sidenote, I'm wondering if I should be pricing new work higher.
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Im £3,000.00 behind ;)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1451513856_Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 22.09.09.png)
Whats the nett figure you're behind ?
That could mean a number of things, be clearer.
Well for 45 nicker an hour i wanna know, what date did you get rid of your employee (so i can calculate the build up or loss), can this work be done from home, if so does one need to get out of bed ? Just simple stuff like that so i can work it out? ;D
Between me and you i';ve been about 30k down a year, and have been for the last 7 years. Thats something i'm looking to rectify in the future though. I've taken a lot of the advice here onboard and am looking to move foreward and rectify this.
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2 men take 7 hours to complete £500 = 14 hours pay £35 p/h productivity
2 vans take 7hours to complete £700 = 14 hours pay £50 p/h productivity
£15 X 7 is £105 a day or £25k over a 48 week year, I think that outweighs the slightly higher van running costs
Darran
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Im £3,000.00 behind ;)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1451513856_Screen Shot 2015-12-30 at 22.09.09.png)
Whats the nett figure you're behind ?
That could mean a number of things, be clearer.
Well for 45 nicker an hour i wanna know, what date did you get rid of your employee (so i can calculate the build up or loss), can this work be done from home, if so does one need to get out of bed ? Just simple stuff like that so i can work it out? ;D
Between me and you i';ve been about 30k down a year, and have been for the last 7 years. Thats something i'm looking to rectify in the future though. I've taken a lot of the advice here onboard and am looking to move foreward and rectify this.
Matt stated last four months so somewhere around £3k behind over 16 weeks
Darran
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2 men take 7 hours to complete £500 = 14 hours pay £35 p/h productivity
2 vans take 7hours to complete £700 = 14 hours pay £50 p/h productivity
£15 X 7 is £105 a day or £25k over a 48 week year, I think that outweighs the slightly higher van running costs
Darran
You need to keep this a bit low key, if JP Morgan or Merril Lynch get onto this we're all gonna be knackered !!
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It was 01st September but the loss in income isn't £3K it's more than that. There was a loss in income over the first 6 weeks, which is the businesses default frequency, of somewhere around £2K. The current state of play is that I'm £3K behind; but over the last 4 months it's totalling £5K or so. Which works out at just over £300 a week. This is inline with the money Darren would earn.
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Matt stated last four months so somewhere around £3k behind over 16 weeks
Darran
£187 per week ? There's another whole load of questions !! ;D
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It was 01st September but the loss in income isn't £3K it's more than that. There was a loss in income over the first 6 weeks, which is the businesses default frequency, of somewhere around £2K. The current state of play is that I'm £3K behind; but over the last 4 months it's totalling £5K or so. Which works out at just over £300 a week. This is inline with the money Darren would earn.
;D
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
£700 vs. £500 doesn't tell the full story though. I don't suppose two smaller vans cost twice as much to run as one larger van, but I'm guessing it must be 175%ish.
As a sidenote, I'm wondering if I should be pricing new work higher.
True, but no van costs £1,000 per week to run which is the difference in t/o.
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A couple of people have brought this up.
Just to clarify, I'm wondering what the difference is financially between running a large van and a smaller one - not trying to insinuate that it's not worth doing. I've run both over the years at different times - but I only used a smaller before WFP. I've never used a smaller van for WFP.
As larger vans cost more to run, I'm guessing that two smaller vans would cost about 175% of a larger van. Would that be about right?
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
£700 vs. £500 doesn't tell the full story though. I don't suppose two smaller vans cost twice as much to run as one larger van, but I'm guessing it must be 175%ish.
As a sidenote, I'm wondering if I should be pricing new work higher.
True, but no van costs £1,000 per week to run which is the difference in t/o.
I'm I reading this right a £1000 a week to run a van. :o
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A couple of people have brought this up.
Just to clarify, I'm wondering what the difference is financially between running a large van and a smaller one - not trying to insinuate that it's not worth doing. I've run both over the years at different times - but I only used a smaller before WFP. I've never used a smaller van for WFP.
As larger vans cost more to run, I'm guessing that two smaller vans would cost about 175% of a larger van. Would that be about right?
There's very little difference Walter infect depending on the van the larger one could work out cheaper as larger vans tend to
work out cheaper to repair and service, try changing the air filter on a new shape Dispatch. ;D
You also wont be pushing the larger van to its limits which tends to happen with smaller.
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
£700 vs. £500 doesn't tell the full story though. I don't suppose two smaller vans cost twice as much to run as one larger van, but I'm guessing it must be 175%ish.
As a sidenote, I'm wondering if I should be pricing new work higher.
True, but no van costs £1,000 per week to run which is the difference in t/o.
I'm I reading this right a £1000 a week to run a van. :o
No. Put your glasses on.
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In my opinion, two man vans struggle to get a really good return.
Just my experience, but two of us in the same van would do £500 a day, but two one man vans with fairly compact work can comfortably do £350 each. Obviously, that's at my pricing. But what's that, a 40% difference?
£700 vs. £500 doesn't tell the full story though. I don't suppose two smaller vans cost twice as much to run as one larger van, but I'm guessing it must be 175%ish.
As a sidenote, I'm wondering if I should be pricing new work higher.
True, but no van costs £1,000 per week to run which is the difference in t/o.
I'm I reading this right a £1000 a week to run a van. :o
No. Put your glasses on.
Took a while even with glasses cant even use beer as an excuse. ;D
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It's for sale. Probably.
I wouldn't be working alongside someone, certainly not someone who's self-employed.
Matt
Drop me an email if you ever decide to sell any.
Andy 😊
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2 men take 7 hours to complete £500 = 14 hours pay £35 p/h productivity
2 vans take 7hours to complete £700 = 14 hours pay £50 p/h productivity
£15 X 7 is £105 a day or £25k over a 48 week year, I think that outweighs the slightly higher van running costs
Darran
But it never works out quite like that does it... Not day in day out.
The more you scale up the more problems you face on a day to day basis.
You should know that by now Smudger 😊
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Just sub work out instead of employing. Get self employed guys with own van and tools and pay a percentage 25/30% . Works for me and is the best way to get a good return, no more vans to buy, no more equipment, they sort there tax out and you offset there invoice against your tax bill so everyone is a winner.
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I agree Andy. Not many domestic window cleaners can earn those figures day in and day out unless they have a round built by me ;D... all work would need to be on the same few roads and priced overly high risking welcomed underpricing . Those sort of figures are what the dreamers want and may get now and then but certanly not all the time and if they were hit all the time then they certainly wouldnt be putting it on a forum.
I have found the only way to get good figures day in day out is doing well payed commercial work as the jobs simply have to be completed on schedule and weather doesnt play a part in problems which is the main cause of half days and off days which efects takings massivley.
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I agree Andy. Not many domestic window cleaners can earn those figures day in and day out unless they have a round built by me ;D... all work would need to be on the same few roads and priced overly high risking welcomed underpricing . Those sort of figures are what the dreamers want and may get now and then but certanly not all the time and if they were hit all the time then they certainly wouldnt be putting it on a forum.
I have found the only way to get good figures day in day out is doing well payed commercial work as the jobs simply have to be completed on schedule and weather doesnt play a part in problems which is the main cause of half days and off days which efects takings massivley.
I am certainly beginning to see the logic in what you are saying. When I had more larger (by my standards) commercial work, I could hit bigger numbers, but my body suffered more due to the nature of some of the jobs (e.g. some of it was 5 or 6 floors high). The main problem I had was it being sub-contract. I could earn well but I ended up being part of someone else's number games. I once had four good sources for regular work and three of them disappeared in quick succession. One took on a PAYE guy as it was more profitable. After five years I got a month's warning - and never got paid for the last month. Two other sources lost their contracts due to increasing their prices, so I lost the jobs too. If they had been my own jobs, I could have been more flexible about it. Financially, it hit me hard for over a year as it takes a while to make up work like that from £20 houses. Lesson learned. Only allow subcontract work to form less than x% of my work. I wrongly thought I was safe because the jobs were from different sources. However, subcontract work was 40% of my turnover at one point a few years ago.
Better to build slower but with my own jobs.
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I agree Andy. Not many domestic window cleaners can earn those figures day in and day out unless they have a round built by me ;D... all work would need to be on the same few roads and priced overly high risking welcomed underpricing . Those sort of figures are what the dreamers want and may get now and then but certanly not all the time and if they were hit all the time then they certainly wouldnt be putting it on a forum.
I have found the only way to get good figures day in day out is doing well payed commercial work as the jobs simply have to be completed on schedule and weather doesnt play a part in problems which is the main cause of half days and off days which efects takings massivley.
When you offer a niche fronts only service at £10 you are always going to struggle with domestic work. ;)
But you are right, to build a business with good pricing does take longer and the turnover of customers is higher than lower priced work so marketing is an ongoing cost, but it's worth it and far more profitable than subbing or franchising.
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Just sub work out instead of employing. Get self employed guys with own van and tools and pay a percentage 25/30% .
Am i reading this correct Mick. They get 25/30% of what they clean , people will do that ?
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It's for sale. Probably.
I wouldn't be working alongside someone, certainly not someone who's self-employed.
Matt
Drop me an email if you ever decide to sell any.
Andy 😊
Will do. I think Im going to go down the job centre route in the new year, see how that goes. If it doesn't work out it'll be time to sell some.
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Just sub work out instead of employing. Get self employed guys with own van and tools and pay a percentage 25/30% .
Am i reading this correct Mick. They get 25/30% of what they clean , people will do that ?
Has to be the other way round. He gets 25/30% as the organiser the contractors get 75%.
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2 men take 7 hours to complete £500 = 14 hours pay £35 p/h productivity
2 vans take 7hours to complete £700 = 14 hours pay £50 p/h productivity
£15 X 7 is £105 a day or £25k over a 48 week year, I think that outweighs the slightly higher van running costs
Agreed, this is the ideal scenario and thankfully this happens the majority of the time, unfortunately to deal with every situation, options, problems would be like writing a 20,000 word essay!!
But generally the above is correct we would rather have 4 vans out with a single operator than 2 pairs of 2
Darran
Darran
But it never works out quite like that does it... Not day in day out.
The more you scale up the more problems you face on a day to day basis.
You should know that by now Smudger 😊
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Darran. Sent you an email. Hopefully you got it. About a day or so ago :)
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Yes Damien - replied ( sorry it's probably a bit long winded! ) pls let me know if It didn't arrive. The email at my end seems a bit hit and miss just now
Darran
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Found it - got jammed in the outbox - now re- sent
Darran
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employing people is an absolute PITA in my experience unless you stumble on someone whos a good worker and then they normally leave after a while and start up on their own if they ve got half a brain.
it just depends what you want to build.im happy as a sole trader.if your the same just keep refining your round day after day,week after week,month after month,year after year.you ll then end up with a good paying round with minimal stress/hassle.buy the best equipment you can afford and a suitable van to maximise efficient working and you ll do ok for yourself. ;)
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employing people is an absolute PITA in my experience unless you stumble on someone whos a good worker and then they normally leave after a while and start up on their own if they ve got half a brain.
it just depends what you want to build.im happy as a sole trader.if your the same just keep refining your round day after day,week after week,month after month,year after year.you ll then end up with a good paying round with minimal stress/hassle.buy the best equipment you can afford and a suitable van to maximise efficient working and you ll do ok for yourself. ;)
That's ok as long as you stay healthy, the real benefit to employing isn't that your going to become mega rich more that
you have a back up, it wont cover everything such as an illness that prevents you running the business but it would certainly
help if you where no longer fit to do manual work.
I don't employ it the minute so don't know if the plus points outweigh the negative buts its something to think about.
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I'm not, or ever have knocked anyone for staying solo, same for some of the rates/prices etc.. No one on here should feel down beat for the rate they are achieving or the biz they are running.
Taking on the first employee was the biggest and hardest decision we made, it's not a step to take lightly, but for me it was always in my 5 year plan, simply I don't want to be doing regular window work day in day out in my mid 50's - I don't have any form of pension so the aim is that the biz provides an income when I either do not want/can't work anymore.
Darran
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employing people is an absolute PITA in my experience unless you stumble on someone whos a good worker and then they normally leave after a while and start up on their own if they ve got half a brain.
it just depends what you want to build.im happy as a sole trader.if your the same just keep refining your round day after day,week after week,month after month,year after year.you ll then end up with a good paying round with minimal stress/hassle.buy the best equipment you can afford and a suitable van to maximise efficient working and you ll do ok for yourself. ;)
That's ok as long as you stay healthy, the real benefit to employing isn't that your going to become mega rich more that
you have a back up, it wont cover everything such as an illness that prevents you running the business but it would certainly
help if you where no longer fit to do manual work.
I don't employ it the minute so don't know if the plus points outweigh the negative buts its something to think about.
yes i know where your coming from sean.if your ill or injured you cant work.i could have 6 months off and still pay my bills no problem but in a few years ill have plenty more put aside that would cover me for even longer.
im in good health though at present and live a very clean lifestyle and have done for years now.
i know guys still working part time window cleaning in their late 60s/early 70s and look great for their age.they dont need to work but do a few days a week still and enjoy it. ;)
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No one knows what's around the corner Daz, weather illness or accident you'd really need a large sum to cover your bills long term
Darran
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No one knows what's around the corner Daz, weather illness or accident you'd really need a large sum to cover your bills long term
Darran
true but its not worth worrying about what "might" happen mate.as long as your saving for the future so you have a good nest egg for when you semi retire/retire.
when ive got say £150,000 behind me in 20 years time ill be able to take it easy.ill probably set up another small business that doesnt require as much physical effort to keep a modest income coming in plus state pension.
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£150,000 is unfortunately bugger all if you have to live off it for twenty years. Particularly if you're still in rented accommodation.
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£150,000 is unfortunately bugger all if you have to live off it for twenty years. Particularly if you're still in rented accommodation.
With £150,000 savings someone would need to pay their rent themselves. With no savings at all the rent would be met from Benefits. No brainer !!! ;D
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Daz do you not have a mortgage??
Your doing realy well workwise, why not get on the ladder and work to pay for your home instead of working to pay for someone elses!. I have 2 houses, renting is just making someone else rich. The rental income from my other property pays for the mortgage on both homes i own. Realy is a no brainer to buy. Interest rates are so low right now too. Use your savings for a deposit if i was you.
Just friendly advice.