Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Soupy on June 12, 2014, 10:59:25 am
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Soooo,
Anyone using the ZeroTM system?
Is it really as quick on first cleans as monthlies?
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its utter & complete, total, 100% marketing BS which is further fuelled by the placebo effect it has on those who spend big bucks on buying one - - it is pretty though!
Here's the math:
My tap water is 300ppm
If my system were badly maintained (for the sake of comparison) I'd get 001ppm out of it.
My static tank holds 1000 litres - 1 million millilitres, or 1 million grams of water. My system has removed 299g out of the water when filling it.
The zero system will remove ALL 300g! A whole 1gram extra dissolved solids, or a performance increase of 0.3% - so its not "1000x better" as advertised, its "0.3% better, and wrapped in pretty packaging"
The PPB tds meters will however detect increases in TDS earlier I imagine, prompting you to replace filters more often and possibly increasing running costs,..
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I know that their maths is a bit questionable. That's not what I'm asking.
Their claim is:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QwoIujLQoQI/U5mQjIt6hjI/AAAAAAAAHzU/m0e_Jho6wEE/w387-h684-no/IMAG0029.jpg)
It clearly shows that a hot ZeroTM system will do a first clean FASTER than a cold water monthly clean.
In fact it seems to suggest that a hot ZeroTM system will clean any window faster than any other system regardless of how much dirtier the window is.
Is it true?
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In fact it seems to suggest that a hot ZeroTM system will clean any window faster than any other system regardless of how much dirtier the window is.
Is it true?
No! Utter BS.
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What is the time scale on this graph?
Who carried out this study?
It's absolute bull as Nat pointed out.
To simplify it, you have a brush, and a pair of arms, you need these arms to move the brush to cover the area of glass, whether the water is 000PPM, 000PPB, the whole area has to be covered then rinsed.
Now, the speed in which you cover this are is determined by YOUR arms, NOT the TDS of the water.
Say for example it's 10 seconds? On a monthly clean, Ionics claim what, 10% quicker with PPB cold?, so 9 seconds to cover that same piece of glass?
All I say is for them to PROVE it.
Come down, with one of your vans, go out with any one of my lads, and PROVE IT.
My lads won't be happy though, as they will finish early, so I can lay them less.
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To simplify it, you have a brush, and a pair of arms, you need these arms to move the brush to cover the area of glass, whether the water is 000PPM, 000PPB, the whole area has to be covered then rinsed.
Agreed that is the case for REGULAR cleans. They agree with that also (pic 1), more or less.
It's when it needs more than 1x scrub + 1x rinse that I'm interested in.
What they are appear to be claiming is that you can clean a dirty window as fast with a hot ZeroTM system. i.e. the hot ZeroTM system will be as fast - if not faster - on mingin' windows compared to any other system on a clean window.
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Don't get me wrong, I think the ZeroTM system has roughly ZeroTM credibility, I'd just like to hear from someone who actually uses one.
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To simplify it, you have a brush, and a pair of arms, you need these arms to move the brush to cover the area of glass, whether the water is 000PPM, 000PPB, the whole area has to be covered then rinsed.
Agreed that is the case for REGULAR cleans. They agree with that also (pic 1), more or less.
It's when it needs more than 1x scrub + 1x rinse that I'm interested in.
What they are appear to be claiming is that you can clean a dirty window as fast with a hot ZeroTM system. i.e. the hot ZeroTM system will be as fast - if not faster - on mingin' windows compared to any other system on a clean window.
Ok, let's get silly...
They say the dirtiest windows are cleaned in less than half the speed.
So, this system really is something special!!
We do some huge cleans which are just one offs or periodicals, this system is claiming to be able to double money by getting the work done in half the time, freeing us up to do more!
Where's my credit card....??
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They say the dirtiest windows are cleaned in less than half the speed.
We do some huge cleans which are just one offs or periodicals, this system is claiming to be able to double money by getting the work done in half the time, freeing us up to do more!
That's their claim.
Not a single person has one or even used one? Or just not willing to admit it?
I take it they haven't sold many?
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Yep sent me a catalogue,which i will read with great interest
and buy bugger all for the eighth year running ;D
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You've got to laugh eh? There must be some very gullible people out there!! ::)roll
In the words of Jim Royle.......PBB my ar*e!! ;D
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The PPB claims just seal the deal on what I think of Ionics. I would never - never, ever - did I say never or never ever or ever ever - recommend Ionics to anyone.
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i think J.V price have one and they say you can see a difference, so i believe
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So, possibly someone knows someone who might have one, and believes that maybe it's better...
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Purple rhino just got one.
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I been told by a secret agent ;D ;D that they been having a lot of trouble with the zero systems and a lot of unhappy customers :o :o :o :o :o
and no it isn't bob bum ;D ;D
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The PPB claims just seal the deal on what I think of Ionics. I would never - never, ever - did I say never or never ever or ever ever - recommend Ionics to anyone.
last year i bought a van with ionics pro 5,quit pleased with it to be honest
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Yep got my catalogue too. (or catalogues I should say) along with a loyalty card for 20% discount, not bad.
The zero is ok, outside my budget but never used one so can't comment.
but IMO ionics Pure2o systems are top notch. I have one and it was a good price and good quality. Would defintely recommend.
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Yeah, I saw the pure2o stuff. Never heard of it before.
Ionics on a budget eh? Who'd have thunk it?
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No doubting their build quality and design, just the pricing and ridiculous claims.
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What is the time scale on this graph?
Who carried out this study?
It's absolute bull as Nat pointed out.
To simplify it, you have a brush, and a pair of arms, you need these arms to move the brush to cover the area of glass, whether the water is 000PPM, 000PPB, the whole area has to be covered then rinsed.
Now, the speed in which you cover this are is determined by YOUR arms, NOT the TDS of the water.
Say for example it's 10 seconds? On a monthly clean, Ionics claim what, 10% quicker with PPB cold?, so 9 seconds to cover that same piece of glass?
All I say is for them to PROVE it.
Come down, with one of your vans, go out with any one of my lads, and PROVE IT.
My lads won't be happy though, as they will finish early, so I can lay them less.
Perhaps start paying with money rather than favours ;)
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Sooooo,
Anyone willing to say anything positive about the ZeroTM?
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its utter & complete, total, 100% marketing BS which is further fuelled by the placebo effect it has on those who spend big bucks on buying one - - it is pretty though!
Here's the math:
My tap water is 300ppm
If my system were badly maintained (for the sake of comparison) I'd get 001ppm out of it.
My static tank holds 1000 litres - 1 million millilitres, or 1 million grams of water. My system has removed 299g out of the water when filling it.
The zero system will remove ALL 300g! A whole 1gram extra dissolved solids, or a performance increase of 0.3% - so its not "1000x better" as advertised, its "0.3% better, and wrapped in pretty packaging"
The PPB tds meters will however detect increases in TDS earlier I imagine, prompting you to replace filters more often and possibly increasing running costs,..
This really gets you going doent it Nat ;D ;D
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Nat got it spot on! How else are they going to pay for the expensive glossy magazines they send out to us all!
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Don't forget there are two Zero's A designed pro5 as the Zero PPM and the all new PPB.
Then the v4 which is a basic pro5. I have the pro6 and I have to say from what I hear the new designs are having teething trouble.
The new trolley they have im sure will out sell xline, pure freedom etc at snip at £1800. ;D
Not on your nelly.
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I been told by a secret agent ;D ;D that they been having a lot of trouble with the zero systems and a lot of unhappy customers :o :o :o :o :o
and no it isn't bob bum ;D ;D
Frank that agent told me the same.... is joey still crying ;D we only had 10 men
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I been told by a secret agent ;D ;D that they been having a lot of trouble with the zero systems and a lot of unhappy customers :o :o :o :o :o
and no it isn't bob bum ;D ;D
Frank that agent told me the same.... is joey still crying ;D we only had 10 men
he hasn't stopped crying :o :o :o
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I've never bought anythinh from ionics (except a 1 day training course)..absolute rip off ::)roll
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Can't help but think that if ionics' claims were even half way true, someone would have had something good to say.....
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You may get a one man band buy one who had just come into some money and is starting out. The people who are buying these probably run over 5 vans and do airports and massive com jobs.
Those sort of people don't come on here. JV price is big and look how often he posts?
If I had a massive business I wouldn't be coming on here defending the zero. They are probably too busy picking the trim on their new car mats for their new porschAaaaS
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You may get a one man band buy one who had just come into some money and is starting out. The people who are buying these probably run over 5 vans and do airports and massive com jobs.
Those sort of people don't come on here. JV price is big and look how often he posts?
If I had a massive business I wouldn't be coming on here defending the zero. They are probably too busy picking the trim on their new car mats for their new porschAaaaS
good point ......... I have suspected for a while that there are some members on here that never post who have huge businesses I know that Craig from Ionics no longer posts on forums (he told me this when I did 2 days training when 1st starting out) whether he was talking about this forum I don't know.
There are some huge jobs out there and someone is cleaning them.
Ive got a mate who never goes on forums anymore due to the drivel spouted (his opinion not mine).. he turns over £15000 a month so yup I agree with your opinion Pure H2o.
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It's probably called the Zero to describe the extra income.
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I have a heated 700 ltr system ppm ionics, it does the job well, hard to tell weather better than my 6 year old ionics system, a bigger problem is it keeps blowing selenods, they are trying to help but say it my water pressure so purchased v expensive pump, still blowing selenods, now the say it the water volume, all a bit frustrating ::)roll
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I have a heated 700 ltr system ppm ionics, it does the job well, hard to tell weather better than my 6 year old ionics system, a bigger problem is it keeps blowing selenods, they are trying to help but say it my water pressure so purchased v expensive pump, still blowing selenods, now the say it the water volume, all a bit frustrating ::)roll
That's what puts me off, my pro6 is simple and very reliable, the last 3 visits to ionic's one to drop off my new van to have my system re fitted from my old van and the second to pick it up, and last week passing through I picked up a new hose, each time people with zero system problems having them looked at. I do like ionics and the systems but the new ones do seem unreliable at the moment.
The new premises that they are in is very impressive so they must be doing something right.
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Am I missing something...or is it still pure water at the end of a brush?
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ZeroTM systems are targeted squarely at all of us. Look how many of you also received the catalogue. If Craig from ionics has made the decision not to post on here then that's up to him. Not what I'd choose to do in his position but then, I'm not in his position, am I? What do I know?
I asked about ZeroTM systems because I'm genuinely interested. I'd very much like to hear from someone who has actually used one. I think it's important to keep your eye on the horizon of the industry. The internet and forums is an excellent way of doing that, no matter how big or small your company is.
If it's as good as the brochure claims, you should all be interested. The fact that no one has posted positively about the ZeroTM systems could be down to many factors. Perhaps the technology is still in its infancy, perhaps the price will fall in the coming months as other companies compete in the market. Perhaps, as others have suggested, it's bs.
Time will tell.
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I have a heated 700 ltr system ppm ionics, it does the job well, hard to tell weather better than my 6 year old ionics system, a bigger problem is it keeps blowing selenods, they are trying to help but say it my water pressure so purchased v expensive pump, still blowing selenods, now the say it the water volume, all a bit frustrating ::)roll
That's what puts me off, my pro6 is simple and very reliable, the last 3 visits to ionic's one to drop off my new van to have my system re fitted from my old van and the second to pick it up, and last week passing through I picked up a new hose, each time people with zero system problems having them looked at. I do like ionics and the systems but the new ones do seem unreliable at the moment.
The new premises that they are in is very impressive so they must be doing something right.
Yep, selling over priced, over engineered systems to the gullible!! ;D It seems there must be a good supply of them out there too! ???
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Sorry if i'm missing something.
We clean at 000pm pure water and it works well. (ok sometimes it drifts up to 9ppm but still ok with the custies).
And it's still clean.
These guys are talking about pp(million) so 1 thousand off (1ppm). mmmmm!
I wouldn't want to sell my business (USP) on that basis.
Who gives a f***ng toss about that accuracy in the real world.
And for THAT EXTRA DOSH!
I'm out.
;D
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I been told by a secret agent ;D ;D that they been having a lot of trouble with the zero systems and a lot of unhappy customers :o :o :o :o :o
and no it isn't bob bum ;D ;D
Frank that agent told me the same.... is joey still crying ;D we only had 10 men
he hasn't stopped crying :o :o :o
Me and thee may fall out very soon Steve...
;D
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Sorry if i'm missing something.
We clean at 000pm pure water and it works well. (ok sometimes it drifts up to 9ppm but still ok with the custies).
And it's still clean.
These guys are talking about pp(million) so 1 thousand off (1ppm). mmmmm!
I wouldn't want to sell my business (USP) on that basis.
Who gives a f***ng toss about that accuracy in the real world.
And for THAT EXTRA DOSH!
I'm out.
;D
The claim is that ppb (billion) is more effective at removing dirt than ppm (million).
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Sorry if i'm missing something.
We clean at 000pm pure water and it works well. (ok sometimes it drifts up to 9ppm but still ok with the custies).
And it's still clean.
These guys are talking about pp(million) so 1 thousand off (1ppm). mmmmm!
I wouldn't want to sell my business (USP) on that basis.
Who gives a f***ng toss about that accuracy in the real world.
And for THAT EXTRA DOSH!
I'm out.
;D
The claim is that ppb (billion) is more effective at removing dirt than ppm (million).
So lets look at the maths:
If i clean at 10ppm (not ideal)
and someone cleans at 00ppm (then their clean will be more effective than mine: by 90%) give or take a bit.
In the real world this is not reasonably practical because 10ppm is actually fairly ok (although not ideal) and the human eye cannot actually detect the difference between 1% and 10%. (ok in sunlight you probably can).
So your clean at 0000ppb (parts per billion) is 1,000 x better than a percieved (0% per cent parts per million)
If your eyes are that good then fair play to you.
You're talking about a partial percentage of 1%.
Where's my chequebook lo! ;D
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If, as others have alluded to, it's only the 'big boys' that are buying them that would seem to indicate that perhaps they are worth buying. Otherwise why would guys with 5 or more vans spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds on them?
I feel that perhaps we have a simplified view of the chemistry involved in purified water and how it behaves. I just want to know if it does what they claim.
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If, as others have alluded to, it's only the 'big boys' that are buying them that would seem to indicate that perhaps they are worth buying. Otherwise why would guys with 5 or more vans spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds on them?
I feel that perhaps we have a simplified view of the chemistry involved in purified water and how it behaves. I just want to know if it does what they claim.
No it doesn't. ;)
99.9% of what is theorised about pure water & it's "cleaning ability" is complete & utter rubbish in real world terms. 000PPM water cleans no more effectively than tap water in the application in which we use it- the only difference is it leaves no dissolved solids residue on the glass after rinsing. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded! ;)
PPB is just more of the same. ;)
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If, as others have alluded to, it's only the 'big boys' that are buying them that would seem to indicate that perhaps they are worth buying. Otherwise why would guys with 5 or more vans spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds on them?
I feel that perhaps we have a simplified view of the chemistry involved in purified water and how it behaves. I just want to know if it does what they claim.
No it doesn't. ;)
99.9% of what is theorised about pure water & it's "cleaning ability" is complete & utter rubbish in real world terms. 000PPM water cleans no more effectively than tap water in the application in which we use it- the only difference is it leaves no dissolved solids residue on the glass after rinsing. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded! ;)
I am not saying otherwise. I am asking if anyone has actually tried it. I am not bothered if you think it's probably bs. Or even if you know for a fact that it's bs.
First time I heard of waterfed poles I KNEW it was b******s. KNEW IT.
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If, as others have alluded to, it's only the 'big boys' that are buying them that would seem to indicate that perhaps they are worth buying. Otherwise why would guys with 5 or more vans spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds on them?
I feel that perhaps we have a simplified view of the chemistry involved in purified water and how it behaves. I just want to know if it does what they claim.
No it doesn't. ;)
99.9% of what is theorised about pure water & it's "cleaning ability" is complete & utter rubbish in real world terms. 000PPM water cleans no more effectively than tap water in the application in which we use it- the only difference is it leaves no dissolved solids residue on the glass after rinsing. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded! ;)
I am not saying otherwise. I am asking if anyone has actually tried it. I am not bothered if you think it's probably bs. Or even if you know for a fact that it's bs.
First time I heard of waterfed poles I KNEW it was b******s. KNEW IT.
Yes I have, it's bollox just like I say it is- that good enough for you clever cloggs?
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You've got to laugh eh? There must be some very gullible people out there!! ::)roll
They tend to target window cleaners who have more credit than sense.
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You've got to laugh eh? There must be some very gullible people out there!! ::)roll
They tend to target window cleaners who have more credit than sense me.
FTFY! ;D
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Yes I have, it's bollox just like I say it is- that good enough for you clever cloggs?
Oh, why didn't you say that days ago?
Was it a hot system? How long did you use it for? Did you get to test the claim it cuts through dirt by doing a first clean? Or, was it at an ionics roadshow?
I'm not trying to be a clever cloggs. I'm just interested.
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I think it's all down to personal choice.
Like buying a car - you need it for personal transport, taking the kids to school, shopping, pleasure etc etc.
A Hyundai Getz (like my wife's) will do all the above quite adequately, so will a Porsche Cayenne. Question is, do you want to spend £5,000 or £42,990 (cheapest version). Maybe the Porsche will give you a bit more pleasure, maybe the Ionics supa-doopa will too, but is it worth the difference?
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I think it's all down to personal choice.
Like buying a car - you need it for personal transport, taking the kids to school, shopping, pleasure etc etc.
A Hyundai Getz (like my wife's) will do all the above quite adequately, so will a Porsche Cayenne. Question is, do you want to spend £5,000 or £42,990 (cheapest version). Maybe the Porsche will give you a bit more pleasure, maybe the Ionics supa-doopa will too, but is it worth the difference?
I disagree. I don't do this for enjoyment, no matter how good the equipment.
Ionics are claiming that this will clean windows faster. If that's true it's simple maths to determine whether it's worth buying.
Value of time saved > Additional cost = worth buying.
Value of time saved < Additional cost = not worth buying.
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I remember buying my pro 6 and people saying on here comments like more money than sense, your put up for sale in six months another gullible redundancy package.
Starting my 6th year and my pro 6 is still going well. When you compare pure freedom gripper max brodex and concept the price except the ppm ionic systems are similar in price.
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I remember buying my pro 6 and people saying on here comments like more money than sense, your put up for sale in six months another gullible redundancy package.
Starting my 6th year and my pro 6 is still going well. When you compare pure freedom gripper max brodex and concept the price except the ppm ionic systems are similar in price.
I'm well into my tenth year wfp & my DIY system is still going strong. I've replaced 1 pump in all this time. Business is booming too!! :)
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I remember buying my pro 6 and people saying on here comments like more money than sense, your put up for sale in six months another gullible redundancy package.
Starting my 6th year and my pro 6 is still going well. When you compare pure freedom gripper max brodex and concept the price except the ppm ionic systems are similar in price.
I'm well into my tenth year wfp & my DIY system is still going strong. I've replaced 1 pump in all this time. Business is booming too!! :)
Good man but its about ionics stuff mate.
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Well done indeedy winpro ! ;D
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I remember buying my pro 6 and people saying on here comments like more money than sense, your put up for sale in six months another gullible redundancy package.
Starting my 6th year and my pro 6 is still going well. When you compare pure freedom gripper max brodex and concept the price except the ppm ionic systems are similar in price.
I'm well into my tenth year wfp & my DIY system is still going strong. I've replaced 1 pump in all this time. Business is booming too!! :)
Good man but its about ionics stuff mate.
That's why I'm demonstrating that essentially, it's only about getting pure water to the brush & you don't have to pay Ionics prices or anywhere even close to them to do that. If you want a "crash tested" system then you can go to Ionics & maybe other suppliers for that feature- anything other than that & you don't have to. Dress it up as you want & over engineer to your hearts content but in the end it all amounts to the same thing. :)
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iis it down to the resin that gets it to ppb?
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That's why I'm demonstrating that essentially, it's only about getting pure water to the brush & you don't have to pay Ionics prices or anywhere even close to them to do that. If you want a "crash tested" system then you can go to Ionics & maybe other suppliers for that feature- anything other than that & you don't have to. Dress it up as you want & over engineer to your hearts content but in the end it all amounts to the same thing. :)
Spot on. It's very simple to do too. My simple two-man system works, I trust it, it doesn't let me down outside of the scope of normal wear 'n' tear.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkHKsC6670
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkHKsC6670
I wasn't going to listen to 20 minutes of that wind and wee, but is that Stuart from Sunshine Cleaning? When did he start working for the political wing of Ironics (PWC Mag)?
He's a facebook friend of mine; I may have to block him. :'(
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkHKsC6670
I wasn't going to listen to 20 minutes of that wind and wee, but is that Stuart from Sunshine Cleaning? When did he start working for the political wing of Ironics (PWC Mag)?
He's a facebook friend of mine; I may have to block him. :'(
i don't know his name, just found this video on youtube.
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I know a very cheap way to clean windows quicker - just move your arms faster.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkHKsC6670
Thanks ben M
Not really anything in the video that isn't in the brochure though. Just words really (most of which were "machines", delivered in a flawless boycie impression), I'd rather see a side by side PPM v PPB comparison on dirty glass.
A worrying point brought up in the video, then expertly glossed over by boycie, the Ionics rep, is that there isn't really any feasible way of measuring water to PPB. In my mind that kind of renders the whole exercise pointless.
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Still can't believe that no one has tried it. Except of course ♠Winp®oClean♠, but he has no further input than :
Yes I have, it's bollox just like I say it is- that good enough for you clever cloggs?
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Contact June at gaps water she will tell you it's BS!
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Still can't believe that no one has tried it. Except of course ♠Winp®oClean♠, but he has no further input than :
Yes I have, it's bollox just like I say it is- that good enough for you clever cloggs?
That's all he needed to say really ...