Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dazmond on March 27, 2014, 07:15:19 pm
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i have a 350L tank ratchet strapped down tight in my van at the moment but moving up to a 500L tank in my next van.
im thinking of a frame from cleaning warehouse.not cheap though.£600+ with VAT and delivery including tank.its the same type of frame that grippatank use apparently.
im still undecided on what van to buy.despite some of the horror stories ive heard im still thinking of a vivaro/trafic/primastar.ive decided to save a bit more so ill have around 6 grand for one.
what do you guys use to secure you tank?
cheers guys
dazmond
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http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/4.html
Get them to make you a nice 500 flat tank with a simple retaining frame. Jobs a good un.
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used straps for 650 tank for 8 years, always been okay but if i had the money would go for a frame if what the experts say is true about accident and g force of the tank, always drive carefully though lol
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Had a 400 upright in van last year which was strapped someone ran into the back of me at a junction probably no more than 10 miles an hour, the tank ended up at i would say a 45 degree angle because of the kinetic force, it was full, straps held it but just, so if you had an accident at 40 mph i would not like to see the end result.
If you have the money and will keep the van for a few years go for the frame
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http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/Grippamax-Basic-DIY-Fitment-GRIPPAMAX_BARE.html
I would go for this 650 litre crash tested for 1295 (diy fitment)
its what i have got and in a vivaro , even when full you hardly notice its there .
Very well baffled and low centre of gravity.
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Jesus Daz. All this money you say you earn and you want to scrimp on securing you tank. Just get a decent setup so if you ever do crash you have a better chance.
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Both.
Tank against bulkhead. Sat in Frame. Frame bolted through van floor. Ratchet strapped to frame.
Modified to add - that's what I've done with my 650 in my Hyundai.
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ive just ordered a tank retaining frame and a 500L baffled upright tank from cleaning warehouse.£400 including VAT and delivery.
im thinking the same GOLD.ill ratchet strap it down as well. ;) :)
ill get the local garage to fit it for me.i cant be bothered messing about drilling holes in the van floor meself!! ;D
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Jesus Daz. All this money you say you earn and you want to scrimp on securing you tank. Just get a decent setup so if you ever do crash you have a better chance.
i want to spend as little money as possible mate! ;)
more money for my van then!to be honest ive only started saving up for my van this year!ive got £4,000 up to now.still need another grand or two yet!! ;) :)
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Years ago my dad had a big roller tool box in a Toyota hiyace and a lorry pulled out on him when he was doing about 50mph.
My dad thinks he was doing about 30mph by the time he got the lorry, and his tool box flew forward and his legs were trapped in the drivers seat.
So can you imagine a half ton water tank flying forward?
Its not worth your life :)
Mine is bolted through the bulk head and through the chassis, should be fine unless the van rolls, in which case i would need a snorkel ;D
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Had a 400 upright in van last year which was strapped someone ran into the back of me at a junction probably no more than 10 miles an hour, the tank ended up at i would say a 45 degree angle because of the kinetic force, it was full, straps held it but just, so if you had an accident at 40 mph i would not like to see the end result.
If you have the money and will keep the van for a few years go for the frame
i like to hear that, at least a good recommendation,well done mate :)
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don't be tight Daz, no point to be the richest man in the cemetery!
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Has anyone thought of manufacting water tanks that rupture on impact. Thus dispelling any kinetic force in an accident?
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Had a 400 upright in van last year which was strapped someone ran into the back of me at a junction probably no more than 10 miles an hour, the tank ended up at i would say a 45 degree angle because of the kinetic force, it was full, straps held it but just, so if you had an accident at 40 mph i would not like to see the end result.
If you have the money and will keep the van for a few years go for the frame
Bit more detail? Was it against the bulkhead and "bounced back" or what? What were the ratchet straps fixed to?
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Has anyone thought of manufacting water tanks that rupture on impact. Thus dispelling any kinetic force in an accident?
Tank in my last van did that.
Had it made by Kiowa in Sleaford.
On impact the main body of the tank would seperate from the base.
The strength was a bit like an ikea wardrobe.
Once complete-strong as an ox but take one component away and the whole thing collapsed.
Expensive but worth it.
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Put a few grand deposit on a new van, finance the van and a grippamax tank.
Professional image and a safetly fitted tank.
Mr B
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Has anyone thought of manufacting water tanks that rupture on impact. Thus dispelling any kinetic force in an accident?
No mate, as far as i'm aware they havn't. That would be a brilliant product, but as far as marketing goes i don't think the idea of an expensive item disintegrating on impact would hold much water (pardon the pun).
The frames they all have out now are a load of crap. They're bolted through the floor in some sort of archaic fashion, and the manufactureres boast (in most cases) is that the frame "retains its integrity", rips the arse or floor out your van making it probably a right off, but still, the frame maintains its integrity.
I've now changed over from metal floor bolted frames to wood, and secure it to the pillars of the van. Mind you thats using one of the strong Wydale tanks. But yes i'm certain a more flimsier (and probably cheaper) tank is the way to go for safety, the worse that can happen then in an accident is you get wet.
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Powder coat frames are rubbish IMO as they are mild steel which is powder coated heated in a glorified oven. Mild steel rusts and powder coated frames chip and peel allowing rust to spread, weakening tank frames. Stainless steel frames cost more but are a better investment in the long run.
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im really not interested in spending more money than i need to regarding tanks and frames.
my next van will have a full bulkhead,500L baffled tank in retaining frame and ratchet strapped down tight.
i bumped into a jet washer guy the other month.he drives an expensive shiny new vw transporter,alloy wheels etc and in the back he has a 1000L IBC tank on a pallet with a few flimsy straps holding it down ::)roll
now im not stupid but no way am i spending £1300 for a tank that holds water! ;D
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Jesus Daz. All this money you say you earn and you want to scrimp on securing you tank. Just get a decent setup so if you ever do crash you have a better chance.
You can't educate a turnip mate, especially where money is concerned.
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My next tank will be in a bolted down frame ratchet straps to the loading eyes isn't that safe to be honest in a crash.
Tie-down points to keep your cargo secure
Side-wall mounted tie-down points help keep the load floor clear and are both DIN and ISO compliant. There are also body side fixings mounted at both waist and shoulder height, each rated at 30kgs load.
http://www.ford.co.uk/CommercialVehicles/All-New-Transit-Courier/Utility-and-costs
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it wasnt that long ago matt bateman(not god)that you were driving around in a red combo.probably with a dodgy tank in the back! ;D ;D ;D
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Money coming out of your ears and you won't spend on safety. Bizzarre ???
Just put your prices up to cover the cost.
Extra £500 or so could get you a stainless steel cage fully fitted - nothing really spread over four or five years. Less than a new extreme pole.
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dave what makes you think "ive got money coming out of my ears"?im a sole trader!
i earn well.probably more than most sole trader mainly domestic window cleaners but it doesnt mean i should spend a shedload of money on equipment!
this year will be the biggest amount of money ive ever spent on a van.
keeping costs down is very important.its only the last few years ive started to earn well in this game. ;) :)
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Daz you must be paying too much tax, not better for you to be limited company?
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im really not interested in spending more money than i need to regarding tanks and frames.
Who does? ;D
And it depends on what your 'needs' are.
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it wasnt that long ago matt bateman(not god)that you were driving around in a red combo.probably with a dodgy tank in the back! ;D ;D ;D
Right on one count wrong on the other.
Fitted by PureFreedom.
Like I said, where money is concerned .......
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As I'm currently sat in Pure Freedoms front office.... I hope bolting the tank down is safe!!!
Lots of drilling noises happening
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dave what makes you think "ive got money coming out of my ears"?im a sole trader!
Probably because you go on about it so much ;D
e.g. £12000 increase in turnover since going wfp, luxury holidays, sports car, "£500 is not a lot of money to give hot water a try " etc. lol :D ;)
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Everyone likes to make out they earn shed loads of money, trouble is some also have a 'it won't happen to me' mentality.
When it does they then have a 'Poor me' mentality.
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If I had the money you say you earn I would be getting the grippamax boys round and fitting a tank in a new van. its a bit like cleaning of ladders you may not have killed yourself yet but if it happens no more work. I bought a tank and frame from grippa the fitted it on my drive, I feel a lot happier knowing if I crash I have more chance of walking away. jesus if I could I would have the all singing and dancing van setup from ionics in a new van. least when you go to work you don't have to think about things breaking or killing you. I honestly think you tell a few porkies on how much money you make as if you did make that much spending 10 grand is nothing.
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ive just ordered a tank retaining frame and a 500L baffled upright tank from cleaning warehouse.£400 including VAT and delivery.
waste of money,
you could have had a by far better tank custom made with a proper frame for not much more http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/1.html
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http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/4.html
Get them to make you a nice 500 flat tank with a simple retaining frame. Jobs a good un.
what prices you talking for those tanks ?
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http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/4.html
Get them to make you a nice 500 flat tank with a simple retaining frame. Jobs a good un.
what prices you talking for those tanks ?
ring the phone number and ask, The chap made my tank and it is excellent,
fully baffled tank custom made to my specification, cant even feel it in the back of the van,
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I don`t care who make your tank and frame when someone hit you up the ass you will not remember how much you paid and even who made the frame as all are tested at a low mph. You will be drinking lunch from a tea cup or not at all. So decide dead or maimed. This will always be a controversial till someone has a accident to prove different.
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Are you saying no one has done an effective test and no one has had a crash serious enough to test the safety of their tank?
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I don`t care who make your tank and frame when someone hit you up the ass you will not remember how much you paid and even who made the frame as all are tested at a low mph. You will be drinking lunch from a tea cup or not at all. So decide dead or maimed. This will always be a controversial till someone has a accident to prove different.
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Strange isn't it Smithie - no one seems to have been badly injured by a tank breaking free? Is that because it is extremely rare compared to many things which may befall us?
After all not a fortnight goes by without some poor sod falling from a ladder and it being reported on here. Can't remember a tank killing on here before.
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http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/4.html
Get them to make you a nice 500 flat tank with a simple retaining frame. Jobs a good un.
what prices you talking for those tanks ?
That frame is bolted through the floor I presume?
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I don`t care who make your tank and frame when someone hit you up the ass you will not remember how much you paid and even who made the frame as all are tested at a low mph. You will be drinking lunch from a tea cup or not at all. So decide dead or maimed. This will always be a controversial till someone has a accident to prove different.
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Strange isn't it Smithie - no one seems to have been badly injured by a tank breaking free? Is that because it is extremely rare compared to many things which may befall us?
After all not a fortnight goes by without some poor sod falling from a ladder and it being reported on here. Can't remember a tank killing on here before.
That's another thing, Malc
There are issues with water tanks and they're nothing to do with ladder use.
Maybe the issues are dealt with, as you say, and that's why there are so few incidents. But some will ignore the dangers and cut corners, regardless of ladder use.
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well there is some guys with an attitude on ere thats for sure!! ;D ;D
chill guys!! ;D
ive made my decision and ordered what i think is right for my needs.at the end of the day its my money.ill do what the hell i like with it! ;)
500L baffled tank,retaining frame and 5 ton ratchets straps.thatll do for me £400. :)
all price rises now done.2 customers lost.happy days! ;)
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Jesus Daz. All this money you say you earn and you want to scrimp on securing you tank. Just get a decent setup so if you ever do crash you have a better chance.
lol, you know the answer already!
If you aint talking money I don't wana know...........
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he put the prices up but he still does £6 houses on compact estate work
what was they before ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well there is some guys with an attitude on ere thats for sure!! ;D ;D
chill guys!! ;D
ive made my decision and ordered what i think is right for my needs.at the end of the day its my money.ill do what the hell i like with it! ;)
500L baffled tank,retaining frame and 5 ton ratchets straps.thatll do for me £400. :)
all price rises now done.2 customers lost.happy days! ;)
Dazmond, when bolting it to the floor make sure you put metal plates underneath the bigger the better.
This will stop the bolts ripping through the floor if your ever unfortunate enough to be in an accident.
Stainless steel wont rust but its too brittle compared to mild steel (especially at the welds ) just get the frame galvanised and you wont have any rust problems.
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There was a topic on here not that long ago discussing just this issue. One of the contributors had been on a course regarding securing loads. He asked his instructor specifically about using ratchet straps to secure a tank in the back of a van. The instructor not only told him that it was perfectly safe to do so, but also explained why. Now i am quite sure there are plenty on here who think they know better than an qualified instructor, but i am not one of them!.
Daz, if you want to secure your tank using straps, you go for it. I would however, suggest you look into exactly how best to use them, as from the previous post i mentioned, safely securing the tank has to do with how you arrange the straps.
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Fao SeanK
Stainless steel wont rust but its too brittle compared to mild steel (especially at the welds )
Don't know where you got the above information from regarding the stainless steel being to brittle (especially the welds), but its incorrect for the 304 or 316 stainless steel that would be used for making frames. They make all types of pressure vessels out of 304/316 st st where the welds have to be stronger than the actual stainless steel itself.
There are types of stainless steel that are brittle, this is martensitic stainless that is used for making items such as cutlery, but this type of stainless is not that weldable and wouldn't be used for general fabrication.
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Fao SeanK
Stainless steel wont rust but its too brittle compared to mild steel (especially at the welds )
Don't know where you got the above information from regarding the stainless steel being to brittle (especially the welds), but its incorrect for the 304 or 316 stainless steel that would be used for making frames. They make all types of pressure vessels out of 304/316 st st where the welds have to be stronger than the actual stainless steel itself.
There are types of stainless steel that are brittle, this is martensitic stainless that is used for making items such as cutlery, but this type of stainless is not that weldable and wouldn't be used for general fabrication.
Trev, I used the word brittle to keep it short, yes you can get different grades of stainless steel but mild steel is better
at absorbing an impact as its more malleable than stainless.
Also due to the heat absorbing nature of stainless its very hard to get a good safe weld. I'm not saying it cant be
done but If my safety was on the line I would put my trust more in a mild steel weld every time.
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at the end of the day we pay our money and take our chances.
full bulkhead,retaining frames and ratchet straps will do nicely.
wfp companies wouldnt sell frames if they were nt up to the job.
ill get my local mechanic to fit it and make sure theres plates underneath.
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at the end of the day we pay our money and take our chances.
full bulkhead,retaining frames and ratchet straps will do nicely.
wfp companies wouldnt sell frames if they were nt up to the job.
ill get my local mechanic to fit it and make sure theres plates underneath.
Dazmond wfp companys will sell what inept people will buy, from fibreglass poles to unbaffled tanks,
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Fao SeanK
Stainless steel wont rust but its too brittle compared to mild steel (especially at the welds )
Don't know where you got the above information from regarding the stainless steel being to brittle (especially the welds), but its incorrect for the 304 or 316 stainless steel that would be used for making frames. They make all types of pressure vessels out of 304/316 st st where the welds have to be stronger than the actual stainless steel itself.
There are types of stainless steel that are brittle, this is martensitic stainless that is used for making items such as cutlery, but this type of stainless is not that weldable and wouldn't be used for general fabrication.
good post havent seen 304 or 316 quoted since i came out of lifting
gear industry nearly ten years ago.
All high tensile steel grade 80,100 or and including stainless 304 and 316 have
been tempered as part of the forging process making them mallaeble
ductile and resistant to shock loading.
They are far from brittle,the metal is designed to give before breaking
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scrimble another poster whos always having a dig!! ;D
im not "inept" just because i dont buy the latest grippapro system or whatever for over a grand!
a tank,frame and rachet straps will do the job just fine! ;)
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Trev, I used the word brittle to keep it short, yes you can get different grades of stainless steel but mild steel is better
at absorbing an impact as its more malleable than stainless.
Also due to the heat absorbing nature of stainless its very hard to get a good safe weld. I'm not saying it cant be
done but If my safety was on the line I would put my trust more in a mild steel weld every time.
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Sean, I have to disagree, I have 20 years experience in welding and fabrication in mild steel & stainless steel and have held welder codings in st st, mild steel, titanium, inconel, aluminium, nimonic in various positions using the TIG welding process and some in MIG welding as well. Out of all these materials, 304/316 stainless is by far the easiest to weld and is the easiest to get a good safe weld, it is also the material that is prone to the LEAST weld defects and also requires the least pre-weld preparation before commencing welding. Stainless steel is by far the more superior material with regards to strength & weldability and is the best material to use for a tank frame, the only problem is, is that its much more expensive than mild steel. The strength of the tank frame is down to the design and the correct thickness of the section type (angle, box section, bar, strip) that its is made out of, not the welds, (that's assuming the welds are carried out by a competent welder) :)
I agree that mild steel is just as suitable for tank frames, although it needs to be galvanised or painted or it will rust.
Personally, if you can get hold of a stainless steel frame though, this would be the better option as it looks good, it doesn't rust :)
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scrimble another poster whos always having a dig!! ;D
im not "inept" just because i dont buy the latest grippapro system or whatever for over a grand!
a tank,frame and rachet straps will do the job just fine! ;)
im not always having a dig! but if you post on a open internet forum expect criticism
yes you are dazmond,
I never mentioned over a grand or grippa read my post again
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scrimble another poster whos always having a dig!! ;D
im not "inept" just because i dont buy the latest grippapro system or whatever for over a grand!
a tank,frame and rachet straps will do the job just fine! ;)
im not always having a dig! but if you post on a open internet forum expect criticism
yes you are dazmond,
I never mentioned over a grand or grippa read my post again
Dazmond = ritchywilts
Always talking money and contradicting yourself in later posts!
Just get a proper system and be done with it, you don't need 26 topics on what van, what pole, what system, what tape, what heater, what fittings!!! Get someone to do it properly and stop scrimping.
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Dazmond's getting stick because he's an open book. He tells us everything (or near enough), so there's plenty ammo.
He also asks for advice but is strong willed at the same time. You advise him but he'll do what he wants, anyway. More ammo.
BUT, he's ok. He can laugh at himself and you've got to admire his enthusiasm. We all make mistakes and get things wrong but they don't get the attention Dazmond's do. You've got to let people make their own mistakes, sometimes.
He's usually big enough to admit them, as well. I can't always say the same.
If he flucks up it's up to him.
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Trev, I used the word brittle to keep it short, yes you can get different grades of stainless steel but mild steel is better
at absorbing an impact as its more malleable than stainless.
Also due to the heat absorbing nature of stainless its very hard to get a good safe weld. I'm not saying it cant be
done but If my safety was on the line I would put my trust more in a mild steel weld every time.
Sean, I have to disagree, I have 20 years experience in welding and fabrication in mild steel & stainless steel and have held welder codings in st st, mild steel, titanium, inconel, aluminium, nimonic in various positions using the TIG welding process and some in MIG welding as well. Out of all these materials, 304/316 stainless is by far the easiest to weld and is the easiest to get a good safe weld, it is also the material that is prone to the LEAST weld defects and also requires the least pre-weld preparation before commencing welding. Stainless steel is by far the more superior material with regards to strength & weldability and is the best material to use for a tank frame, the only problem is, is that its much more expensive than mild steel. The strength of the tank frame is down to the design and the correct thickness of the section type (angle, box section, bar, strip) that its is made out of, not the welds, (that's assuming the welds are carried out by a competent welder) :)
I agree that mild steel is just as suitable for tank frames, although it needs to be galvanised or painted or it will rust.
Personally, if you can get hold of a stainless steel frame though, this would be the better option as it looks good, it doesn't rust :)
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Trev. I have 20 years in the same business and would love to get into a debate with you over the pros and cons of stainless
but this is the wrong forum for that.
Having said that Iv had to go back to my old note books as its 10 years since I last worked with metal.
Nice to talk to a fellow metal worker or fabrication engineer depending on what you like to be called. :)