Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Klean07 on May 26, 2013, 12:14:38 pm
-
My present system was fitted d I y so just wondered how many go down this way or pay the extra to have one factory fitted?
-
I found that there wasn't a big saving to be made doing a diy system unless buying
inferior equipment.
Also at the time I knew very little about wfp setups so would have wasted money
on a system that wouldn't have suited my needs.
All depends on the mark up the professional fitter has on labour.
The guy who done mine was very reasonable and give me training on how to use
and maintain it.
-
If you have the skills and can make it look and work good, do it your self. It will help you when went maintaining the system.
-
i did mine myself .hot 2 man system very easy tbh and saved a fortune . everyone to their own i guess. i do like the look of the ionics / grippamax systems though. but at the end of the day its about profit margins in my eyes..
-
My diy system cost about £500
Van mount, 400L tank, 100m microbore, Gardiners reel.
Twin 11L di's, second hand Shurflo pump.
Saved a lot of money this way and I've been using it since last August with no issues ;D
-
I found that there wasn't a big saving to be made doing a diy system unless buying
inferior equipment.
Also at the time I knew very little about wfp setups so would have wasted money
on a system that wouldn't have suited my needs.
All depends on the mark up the professional fitter has on labour.
The guy who done mine was very reasonable and give me training on how to use
and maintain it.
Who fitted it?
-
I found that there wasn't a big saving to be made doing a diy system unless buying
inferior equipment.
Also at the time I knew very little about wfp setups so would have wasted money
on a system that wouldn't have suited my needs.
All depends on the mark up the professional fitter has on labour.
The guy who done mine was very reasonable and give me training on how to use
and maintain it.
Who fitted it?
Sureclean in Omagh.
www.surecleansystems.com
-
Ask your insurance if you're covered in the event of an accident should you go down the DIY route.
-
sorry i thought vans was designed to transport things . i cant believe if i have an accident my ins may not to pay out because my van had a load in it...
-
It really makes me laugh when these topics arise, diy or fitted? Crash tested? Frames or straps? The reason it is all hyped up is so these companies are in business! How many of you who drive cars have stuff in the back and on the back shelf which is not secured? All these things in an accident can kill you but no one even thinks twice about it!
I'm not saying just chuck a tank in the back fill it up and away you go, but any one with some common sense does not need to be spending thousands on a fitted system. Ask yourself this, you've spent all your money on a all singing and dancing system and have no money to replace your wrotten rusty van, that has hardly any of the floor left under your ply lining, what good is that when you have this accident and it rips it straight out the floor and chassis?
It ain't always about fitted systems, be sensible do it yourself and save money!
-
sorry i thought vans was designed to transport things . i cant believe if i have an accident my ins may not to pay out because my van had a load in it...
Fitting a tank in your van is classed as a modification and needs to be put through your insurance
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
My tank is fitted in a frame but I had a 1 off sub base designed and fitted so I can slide the tank out the side door on the odd occasion when I need the whole back of the van.
I spoke with my insurance ( a plan ) and even though the tank can still be removed it is still classed as a modification
-
How does this affect all the other trades with equipment that they carry?
So most vans on the road are driving around with incorrect insurance?
-
sorry i thought vans was designed to transport things . i cant believe if i have an accident my ins may not to pay out because my van had a load in it...
You'll need to speak to them, fitting a tank is a modification. If the tank isnt securely fitted youre travelling with an unsafe load, thats illegal.
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
No, it wouldn't, it would be classified as 'unsafe load'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/workplacetransport/loadsafety/planning-your-load.htm
-
How does this affect all the other trades with equipment that they carry?
So most vans on the road are driving around with incorrect insurance?
That's a bit of a broad statement, you need to speak with your insurance to see how they differentiate between cargo and a modification
-
This is an argument that can go on and on, just like trad v wfp. You can bet your life that anybody who has paid extra to have a fitted system other diy will always say its illegal or unsafe or whatever, just like a trad window cleaner will always say wfp is crap! At the end of the day is everything in the van bolted to the floor cos anything is capable of injuring you? Then you have to ask yourself how good is that floor/chassis you've bolted it to?
There is nothing wrong with using ratchet straps to secure a load, next time you see a lorry driving down the road carrying a load, have a little look what is holding it down? Think you'll find it straps and not bolted through the trailer.
-
Matt, follow the link that you posted and see 'how to secure loads safely' it does refer to ratchet straps, so how would this deemed as being illegal?
-
This is an argument that can go on and on, just like trad v wfp. You can bet your life that anybody who has paid extra to have a fitted system other diy will always say its illegal or unsafe or whatever, just like a trad window cleaner will always say wfp is crap! At the end of the day is everything in the van bolted to the floor cos anything is capable of injuring you? Then you have to ask yourself how good is that floor/chassis you've bolted it to?
There is nothing wrong with using ratchet straps to secure a load, next time you see a lorry driving down the road carrying a load, have a little look what is holding it down? Think you'll find it straps and not bolted through the trailer.
I haven't commented on the legality of straps as I don't know what the law says.
I personally paid the extra because it was a one off frame and rightly or wrongly it makes me feel safer than I would have if I'd used straps.
Knowing what I do now I would always go down the DIY route in future but I would always check with my insurance first
It really doesn't bother me if someone uses a frame, straps or bubble gum and blu tack, I feel safe when I'm driving and that is what matters to me most
-
Matt, follow the link that you posted and see 'how to secure loads safely' it does refer to ratchet straps, so how would this deemed as being illegal?
Its just my opinion, but if a load is secured by a mechanism that is inadequate then it isnt secure.
If it isnt secure its unsafe.
I just go by what I feel and believe is the right thing to do. For the sake of a few quid Id rather travel safe than travel with a heightened risk of having 3/4 tonne of water coming through the bulkhead rendering the vehicle uncontrollable.
Don't forget the dynamics of a load of water compared to the dynamics of a similiar weighted load of cement is going to be entirely different.
If you want to travel with a DIY system feel free, just dont crash into me.
-
who fitted your tank matt?
-
GrippaMax.
-
GrippaMax.
Have all your previous vans been pro fitted Matt?
-
The whole point of a diy system is to save money but do your research.
I worked out that a diy system to the same standard would have saved me
between £400 and £500 pounds.
For the extra I got a guarantee, training and a better system than I would have designed myself.
Believe me when it come to saving money I am as tight as a ducks behind
but sometimes you can spend a pound to save a penny.
-
My tank is in a cage and was fitted by a m.o.t garage with 6inch bolts through the chassis the rest was done by me!
-
I know a bloke that knows a bloke some know this bloke, his insurance didn't pay out as his van was totaled in a very minor shunt. DIY fitted it him self and it was not safe so the insurance wriggled out of paying. Factory fitted or get a qualified garage to do the work.
-
The whole point of a diy system is to save money but do your research.
I worked out that a diy system to the same standard would have saved me
between £400 and £500 pounds.
For the extra I got a guarantee, training and a better system than I would have designed myself.
Believe me when it come to saving money I am as tight as a ducks behind
but sometimes you can spend a pound to save a penny.
Only that much?
I'm surprised
-
An idea is not to use a tank for your water.
I carry 500 litres in the back just sloshing freely about. In fact it could help you in a crash by cushioning the impact.
You have to be careful when opening the van doors, though. Oh, and your butties can get a bit moist.
-
I know a bloke that knows a bloke some know this bloke, his insurance didn't pay out as his van was totaled in a very minor shunt. DIY fitted it him self and it was not safe so the insurance wriggled out of paying. Factory fitted or get a qualified garage to do the work.
Is there a qualification for fitting tanks?
When I approached my garage they said I could use their ramp and do the fitting myself.
-
Talk to A - Plan - they'll insure a "modification" as in a tank D.I.Y. bolted i the back.
-
My tank is in a cage and was fitted by a m.o.t garage with 6inch bolts through the chassis the rest was done by me!
+1
-
I would expect a strapped in tank in a van to cause some serious damage more so with an upright tank .
Which is the very reason my diy fitted tank with straps is in a pick up truck which has a double bulkhead along with a double cab my tank is firmly wedged in the load bed and has large timbers down each side as dunnage and it never moves . Mike
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
My tank is fitted in a frame but I had a 1 off sub base designed and fitted so I can slide the tank out the side door on the odd occasion when I need the whole back of the van.
I spoke with my insurance ( a plan ) and even though the tank can still be removed it is still classed as a modification
good old a plan filling people full of bull to up the cost making them more cash , if its not bolted in not a modification I took the cis to court over this after a crash in a brand new truckmounted van , I won costing them a lot of money ;D
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
No, it wouldn't, it would be classified as 'unsafe load'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/workplacetransport/loadsafety/planning-your-load.htm
I am sure having three 15 tonne straps holding your gear in place is safer then a few bolts ??? then again what do I know coming from a family of truck drives that have drag loads all over the world from 1 tonne -200tonne I don't see all these flat bed trucks getting pulled fr unsafe loads my be theres a secret law just for window cleaners ??
-
GrippaMax.
Have all your previous vans been pro fitted Matt?
Yes.
It's not the straps it's the fixings the straps are hooked on to that you need to concern yourself with. If they're useless, which being as theyre likely to be just spot welded to the van floor, then they're useless. You could fix your tank to them with an iron chain, it'd make no difference. But you know that already don't you, well you should if driving tonka toys has anything to do with it.
-
Surely if a tank is fitted using ratchet straps and not bolted through the floor then it can't be classed as a permanent fixing?????
My tank is fitted in a frame but I had a 1 off sub base designed and fitted so I can slide the tank out the side door on the odd occasion when I need the whole back of the van.
I spoke with my insurance ( a plan ) and even though the tank can still be removed it is still classed as a modification
good old a plan filling people full of bull to up the cost making them more cash , if its not bolted in not a modification I took the cis to court over this after a crash in a brand new truckmounted van , I won costing them a lot of money ;D
My tank is bolted in but I am able to remove it because its fastened to a sub plate
-
i found that off the shelf systems fitted by pure freedom bodex window cleaning warehouse etc didnt fit my needs thats why i went diy and my set up is better than all of them,
i didnt want a crap wydale tank, i wanted a proper baffled tank with a metal frame, to fit my van perfectly, so custom was the only way to go, i designed the set up and it was all made by http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/
-
It's not the straps it's the fixings the straps are hooked on to that you need to concern yourself with. If they're useless, which being as theyre likely to be just spot welded to the van floor, then they're useless. You could fix your tank to them with an iron chain, it'd make no difference. But you know that already don't you, well you should if driving tonka toys has anything to do with it.
that's funny because when I ordered all of my new vans with factory fit floor hocks they were bolted right though the floor and into the chasses , sprinters and transits , but then again I know northing carry on spouting your poop
its not like you get the law round your place like I do to keep my operators licence ive forgot more about insureing vans and trucks then you will ever know :P
-
It's not the straps it's the fixings the straps are hooked on to that you need to concern yourself with. If they're useless, which being as theyre likely to be just spot welded to the van floor, then they're useless. You could fix your tank to them with an iron chain, it'd make no difference. But you know that already don't you, well you should if driving tonka toys has anything to do with it.
that's funny because when I ordered all of my new vans with factory fit floor hocks they were bolted right though the floor and into the chasses
In that case its bolted to the chassis, lol ;D ;D ;D
Unbelievable.
-
To my mind a heavy tank of water is unstable, and in the event of an accident is going to keep moving forwards crushing you, and your passenger. Would I trust a ratchet strap . . . . no, paid for the system to be fitted, and paid more in insurance premiums for being honest ( if you are not insurance will be invalid, and you will be convicted ).
If you want save money it may cost you a lot more by doing it yourself !
-
To my mind a heavy tank of water is unstable
Have you had your hair cut again?
-
There's a lot of misinformation and disinformation posted on this subject every time it raises its head.
Here's the main points...........
ANY fitted system uses the same principal, they're all bolted through the van floor pan and there are spreader plates underneath so the bolts can't easily rip through.
Any load carried in your van needs to be secured, i'm refering to restrained tanks here. The legislation is quite simple. The load needs to be secured downwards towards the floor/bed of the van and best practice indicates in should ideally be against the bulkhead of the van. If this is not possible, maybe due to weight distribution issues then chocks, blocks etc should be used to prevent forward motion.
To save anyone guessing whats illegal or legal here's the authority guidlines on the subject so you can see yourself first hand whats required............
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MO%20-%20Issue%2039%20-%20June%202012.pdf
http://www.iosh.co.uk/pdf/FTA%20presentation%20-%20Load%20Securing%20-%20IOSH%20safety%20event%20Sept%2013.pdf
As far as i've seen and i'll happily be corrected, the certification that Ionics/Grippatank and others have is to confirm that the tank/frame assembly retains its integrity in the tests they've undertook.
Now, stop and think about the bit i've highlighted in bold for a minute. In all the videos i've seen the van is a write off after the test. Ok, the tank and frame has held its integrity. Now none of them have patented or designed a securing method, no, they rely on the bolts and spreader plates. The whole saftey aspect hones around the tank retaining its integrity.
So, in the event of a crash, your van will probably be a right off. No one has tested the 'restraining system' in so far as making sure the tank stays on the van floor. Well, they have and its spreader plates that hold them there. Of course theres no mileage for marketting your system if you just say it stays on the floor like everyone elses because we use stainless steel bolts and spreader plates.
A crap frame will stay on the floor if fitted the same way using spreader plates. Your van will still be a write off. I personally find it very comforting that the tank frames retain their integrity. At least you can go to the breakers yard after an accident and ask for your frame back.
And of course, me being me , i find it quite funny watching some young fellas hair arse the van around like a sports car, safe in the knowledge they have a 'crash tested system'.
Lets not forget..IBC's are designed for carrying liquids on vehicles. Just make sure they're restrained properly and legally. ;D
-
Matt, follow the link that you posted and see 'how to secure loads safely' it does refer to ratchet straps, so how would this deemed as being illegal?
Its just my opinion, but if a load is secured by a mechanism that is inadequate then it isnt secure.
If it isnt secure its unsafe.
I just go by what I feel and believe is the right thing to do. For the sake of a few quid Id rather travel safe than travel with a heightened risk of having 3/4 tonne of water coming through the bulkhead rendering the vehicle uncontrollable.
Don't forget the dynamics of a load of water compared to the dynamics of a similiar weighted load of cement is going to be entirely different.
If you want to travel with a DIY system feel free, just dont crash into me.
totally agree
-
Don't forget the dynamics of a load of water compared to the dynamics of a similiar weighted load of cement is going to be entirely different.
Have you any concrete evidence to back this up?
-
Drop a bag of cement from 6' see how far it moves. Drop a bucket of water from 6' see how far it travels.
-
Drop a bag of cement from 6' see how far it moves. Drop a bucket of water from 6' see how far it travels.
Done it. And I did it with a bag of sand, too.
I now see what you're pointing to.
-
I gave you that one ;D
-
I gave you that one ;D
;D
It made a mess of the living room, though.
-
I bet 8)
-
Very good read their CleanClear without a doubt their is some windys with inadequate frames and restraints and are just hoping they will be alright .
The frames that are sold for the diy guy dont look up to the job and if fitted incorrectly the whole thing is going to move and kill someone .
My 400ltr flat tank is strapped in and wont move at all got all my advice and got it checked over from a relative who worked in transport in the army for over 20yrs , and fully loaded i under half of my total payload thier is plenty of vans about with their back-ends on the floor .
Due to been very close to been over loaded . Mike
-
Another B/s thread again. Lets all add to all the B/S my straps are better than Grippa Max. No my bulk head is better because it fitted by Ionics crap.
-
The point i am making is that if it is not a tested frame or a DIY tank is strapped into the back of a van their is more chance of the load shifting either forwards , backwards sideways and upwards shift .
The tanks i have seen strapped into the back of vans are centralised almost which greatly increases the risk of shift in an accident , And their is no dunnage in their either again increasing the risk . Mike
-
i got mine made and fitted its way better then building your own as it got a fitted frame everything neat and tidy and they use good equipment were if u build your own u try and do everything on cheap and u get leaks and all sorts go wrong unless u really no what your doing off course. but i say get it build and fitted if u got the money. ;)
-
It's not the straps it's the fixings the straps are hooked on to that you need to concern yourself with. If they're useless, which being as theyre likely to be just spot welded to the van floor, then they're useless. You could fix your tank to them with an iron chain, it'd make no difference. But you know that already don't you, well you should if driving tonka toys has anything to do with it.
that's funny because when I ordered all of my new vans with factory fit floor hocks they were bolted right though the floor and into the chasses , sprinters and transits , but then again I know northing carry on spouting your poop
its not like you get the law round your place like I do to keep my operators licence ive forgot more about insureing vans and trucks then you will ever know :P
this lady talks sense. when you think about all the lorrys carrying their loads and all they do is strap them down. and they carry serious weights not the half tonne loads we move about oood point. money making scaremainering by the companies perhaps, after all they have to justify charging thousands for nothing . dont worry to the guys who gave them their monies . it'll be spent on a nice car or a nice cruise around hawaii...
-
i got mine made and fitted its way better then building your own as it got a fitted frame everything neat and tidy and they use good equipment were if u build your own u try and do everything on cheap and u get leaks and all sorts go wrong unless u really no what your doing off course. but i say get it build and fitted if u got the money. ;)
You don't need to be an expert to connect a few hoses together and avoid leaks ;D
-
It's not the straps it's the fixings the straps are hooked on to that you need to concern yourself with. If they're useless, which being as theyre likely to be just spot welded to the van floor, then they're useless. You could fix your tank to them with an iron chain, it'd make no difference. But you know that already don't you, well you should if driving tonka toys has anything to do with it.
that's funny because when I ordered all of my new vans with factory fit floor hocks they were bolted right though the floor and into the chasses , sprinters and transits , but then again I know northing carry on spouting your poop
its not like you get the law round your place like I do to keep my operators licence ive forgot more about insureing vans and trucks then you will ever know :P
this lady talks sense. when you think about all the lorrys carrying their loads and all they do is strap them down. and they carry serious weights not the half tonne loads we move about oood point. money making scaremainering by the companies perhaps, after all they have to justify charging thousands for nothing . dont worry to the guys who gave them their monies . it'll be spent on a nice car or a nice cruise around hawaii...
Yes but ......... flat beds are rather different to vans. They have very substantial ratchet points, not noodles of wire spot welded to the wheel arch, they tend to have massive bulkheads not like the wafer thin offerings of a Citroen and they have the option to strap their loads at the correct angles (low angles) unlike a van.