Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: gaz1984mcc on March 12, 2013, 03:57:41 pm
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Hi i made a post a couple of weeks ago regarding making a diy ETM. The only thing I'm stuck on is the waste tank. I'm still not convinced that a metal drum will take the power of four 3 stage vacs in series/parallel. So I'm hoping some of you guys can give me any ideas as to where I could maybe buy a waste tank or get one fabricated that won't implode. I was thinking it would have to be made of steel but maybe something lighter or cheaper could be used like fibreglass or polypropylene. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Gary
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what about scorpion tanks?
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i saw those on the WOC website only trouble is i need there to be 2 holes for where the vacuums go in and i think there only 1 already fitted to these tanks.
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Look around for a second hand truckmount waste tank.
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I'm keeping a lookout Paul trouble is it's not the sort of thing you see for sale on there own very often thanks mate.
Gary
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Gary i will ask on truckmouNters forum for you.
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Thanks Paul ;)
Gary
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i saw those on the WOC website only trouble is i need there to be 2 holes for where the vacuums go in and i think there only 1 already fitted to these tanks.
no, there are two holes
the top tank on the photo is the waste tank, as u can see on the left side is one hole connects with the machine and one on the middle that connetcs with the wand
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/Cross-American/Complete20kit.jpg)
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Thanks Radek sorry i meant i needed 3 holes. one for the wand hose and 2 holes for each stack from the vacuums. I'm not to sure if it will affect performance if I use a Y connector for the vacuums rather than having 2 separate stacks into the waste tanks from the vacuums. Because i wanted the 2 sets of 2, 3 stage vacuums in series then both sets going to the tanks in parallel.
Thanks
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Thanks Radek sorry i meant i needed 3 holes. one for the wand hose and 2 holes for each stack from the vacuums. I'm not to sure if it will affect performance if I use a Y connector for the vacuums rather than having 2 separate stacks into the waste tanks from the vacuums. Because i wanted the 2 sets of 2, 3 stage vacuums in series then both sets going to the tanks in parallel.
Thanks
Y splitter wont really matter , In series / Parallel you wont have more CFM than the Scorpion , but you will have double the lift , which wont be as affected by the single port .
What vacuum motors are u going to use ...
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Hi John I'm just going to use some 3 stage lamb 5.7s for now maybe even 2 stage 5.7s after seeing how well the goliath etm/portable performs. So do you think using just a y connector on the end of both sets of vacuums going into the waste tank. Will perform the same as if i had 2 separate stacks into the waste.
Thanks
Gary
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Just be carefull it doesn't end up like this. A guy tried to use it with his Prowler. :o
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1363116356_Tank sucks.jpg)
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OMG! WTF :o
There was me thinking finally sorted. Maybe i need something a little stronger.
Thanks for the share John
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It wont really matter ,
Any four vacs will perform well , but as u know Goliath is using two stage vacs primarily because its difficult to run two vacs on the one cord in the USA @ 120v as they draw twice the amps per vac that we do at 230v .
So you could use two three stages on each cord no problem .
If you are going to pay £100+ for each lamb three stage , you might consider directly importing Motors from Electro in the USA , might be around the same cost or less .
The conical electros would be 600+ airwatts where as the Lamb three stage is 450 , electro also have a conical two stage ( like a 5.7 version of the 6.6 ) which draws less amps than the three stage lamb but is also 600 airwatts .
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It wont really matter ,
Any four vacs will perform well , but as u know Goliath is using two stage vacs primarily because its difficult to run two vacs on the one cord in the USA @ 120v as they draw twice the amps per vac that we do at 230v .
So you could use two three stages on each cord no problem .
If you are going to pay £100+ for each lamb three stage , you might consider directly importing Motors from Electro in the USA , might be around the same cost or less .
The conical electros would be 600+ airwatts where as the Lamb three stage is 450 , electro also have a conical two stage ( like a 5.7 version of the 6.6 ) which draws less amps than the three stage lamb but is also 600 airwatts .
Thanks John do you know which model of the electro's would be best suited for use in the UK?
Gary
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It wont really matter ,
Any four vacs will perform well , but as u know Goliath is using two stage vacs primarily because its difficult to run two vacs on the one cord in the USA @ 120v as they draw twice the amps per vac that we do at 230v .
So you could use two three stages on each cord no problem .
If you are going to pay £100+ for each lamb three stage , you might consider directly importing Motors from Electro in the USA , might be around the same cost or less .
The conical electros would be 600+ airwatts where as the Lamb three stage is 450 , electro also have a conical two stage ( like a 5.7 version of the 6.6 ) which draws less amps than the three stage lamb but is also 600 airwatts .
Thanks John do you know which model of the electro's would be best suited for use in the UK?
Gary
I would say four of the conical two stages would make a nice machine without much chance of tripping breakers .
That would be the 230v version of this ...
http://www4.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=4884
The mytee escape is using four of the three stage version ... so according to woodbridge its working OK here ...
http://www2.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=4762
The reference numbers above are pretty meaningless as they are just used by that distributor .
I'v read that Electro sell direct but not sure .
http://www.electromtr.com
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i saw those on the WOC website only trouble is i need there to be 2 holes for where the vacuums go in and i think there only 1 already fitted to these tanks.
no, there are two holes
the top tank on the photo is the waste tank, as u can see on the left side is one hole connects with the machine and one on the middle that connetcs with the wand
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/Cross-American/Complete20kit.jpg)
love that set up,how much did it cost?????
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Thanks John I think I may go with the electro motors instead its a shame you can't get them in the UK though.
Thanks
Gary
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love that set up,how much did it cost?????
its not my set, just found it on google
got the scorpion myself, its just on the way from uk to me and I will be getting the scorpion tanks in future too
if you look for the new tanks I think they come without the frame
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hey Radek,are yo going to be leaving the scorpion in your van like a tm or using it as a porty too.How biz in Cork.
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will have only 50' of hoses for now, so stairs and landing will be able to do off the van I guess, in future mostly off the van with the scorpion tanks and more hoses.
business in Cork? hmm hard to say, only few month in business, so its to early for any opinions from newbie
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hey radek,good luck with it,usually starts getting busier in the next couple of weeks.
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You can easily add an extra port for your vac hose on to one of those tanks. You just need the right sized tank cutter to make the hole, fit a hose barb and seal it on ;)
Nick would maybe help you out with it if you ask nicely :)
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Cheers Jim do you not think they will implode then?
thanks
Gary
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hmm slightly confused i just rang up woodbridge to ask if they sell the electro motors that are used in the mytee escape. To be told that they sell "powervac" motors for them instead. I'm pretty sure that they were supposed to be Electro motors.
Gary
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hmm slightly confused i just rang up woodbridge to ask if they sell the electro motors that are used in the mytee escape. To be told that they sell "powervac" motors for them instead. I'm pretty sure that they were supposed to be Electro motors.
Gary
I dont think any distributor will call them ' Electro motors ' is you look at the link i put up earlier for Larry Cobbs site he is calling them ' Dynachem ' motors .
Its likely Woodbridge made up the powervac name , I think they used to be on the woodbridges old site simply called ' Mytee motors ' and the price was steep enough . All the mytee portables use electros , but only the LTD5 , 1005dx , floodhog , and some of the many boosters use the higher power ones .
You would really need to make sure you are getting the vac model you want , so i would either explain to woodbridge u want the ' Mytee motors ' the higher powered ones with the slightly rounded bottom ( send them a pic ) .... or just phone electro to save confusion and perhaps get them cheaper .
looking at woodbridges site the powervac branded motors are probably european ameteks .... they may be calling all the vacs they sell ' powervacs' , but they should have explained it to you better , as it only spreads confusion as to what motors are used in the escape .
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Thanks John I'll give electro a call and see how much to get them shipped to the UK and also find out the correct model number.
Cheers
Gary
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Gaz, the lift developed by the motor configuration you suggest should be nowhere near enough to implode one of those tanks. The imploded one shown above was done by a positive displacement blower which is capable of way higher lift.
JK may be able to clarify but I'd guess the prowler doesn't have a vac relief valve, or at least that system didn't have one built in to it? Truckmounts are generally limited to 14 or 15" Hg lift otherwise, if the blower was allowed to reach its full potential lift you wouldn't be able to move the wand across the carpet and the vac hoses would collapse!
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You are right Jim, don't think that one did. New ones have one fitted.
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Thanks for that Jim might save me some money if I can get some used ones :) I've made an enquiry at shop4tanks regarding getting a stainless steel one made up depending on the cost.
Thanks
Gary
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No sweat Gaz. Thanks John, thought that might be the case ;)
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2 x 3 stage in series will produce as much or more lift than a prowler.
obviously the CFMs are way down.
2 x 3 stage in series x 2 parallel will give approx. 220+" water lift.
with 210+ CFMs depending on motors used.
Not a good idea to use with tanks designed for parallel machines.
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With respect, have you ever felt the difference between an in-series portable and a truckmount blower, when you lose hold of the end of the hose and it grabs hold of your boll*cks?!! Not sure what the scientific explanation is but a positive displacement blower being mechanically turned by an engine is a hell of a lot more savage than electric vacs, which struggle and bog down under load.
When I used to hook two ninjas up in parallel, it never collapsed the vac hose - I use a small piece of exactly the same hose as my whip line on the TM now, and it stands up to the job perfectly well. Those tanks will be fine!
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Tbh Jim no I haven't I wish I could afford one :( lol. I know it's going to be no where near as powerful as a truck mount. But cost wise it's gonna be a lot cheaper and hopefully do me well until I can afford a truck mount. Also upgrades should be quite cheap if I just upgrade the vacs ie 4 x 6.6 vacs in series/parallel. Cheers Jim
Thank you
Gary
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I spent years and years improving performance, had tanks and machine shells fabricated and what you will find out, no matter how long it will take you is that: truckmounts have been designed by pretty clever guys to deliver productivty, power and reliability and in a way that you will never ecomonmically achieve yourself.
Peter
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You can always strengthen the tanks with a metal bar inside, some of the old ninjas have this mod, not sure why though unless the tanks were that weak.
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Jim, 'lose the end of your hose and it ends up on your b*ll*ocks'? That old chestnut, eh?
I'm guessing someone spent 'Beer & BJ' day alone?
;D
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Jim, 'lose the end of your hose and it ends up on your b*ll*ocks'? That old chestnut, eh?
I'm guessing someone spent 'Beer & BJ' day alone?
;D
hahahahahaahahaha!!!!
;D ;D ;D
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I had a Ninja where the tank was sucking in. I installed a stainless steel bar as was installed on later models.
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I spent years and years improving performance, had tanks and machine shells fabricated and what you will find out, no matter how long it will take you is that: truckmounts have been designed by pretty clever guys to deliver productivty, power and reliability and in a way that you will never ecomonmically achieve yourself.
Peter
Hi Peter could you let me know which configurations you have tried out? Have you tried 4 three stage in series/parallel. Also Peter I'm not sure which part of the country your in but is there any chance you could let me know where you had the tanks made. Because I'm still waiting for shop 4tanks to get back to me with a price.
Thank you
Gary
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Gary
Would your van insurance cover you for a home made machine installed in your van
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Tbh Jim I'm not sure but I dot see how it's much different to having any other type of machine in the van. Because nothing is going to be bolted down in the van apart from the tanks. And If it were to set on fire then fare enough but I'm sure there would be a fare few questions asked if the same were to happen with a tm in the van. Don't forget it really is just 4 vacs and a pump with a couple of tanks.
Gary
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Right got my initial problem sorted today regarding getting a waste tank. I've just picked up today scorpion waste and water tanks including the frame for £200 which I'm pretty chuffed with. Now I've been weighing up which way to go about building my van mounted system. I've been thinking of 2 ways I could do it.
First option is as I originally thought 2 x 2 three stage vacuums in series parallel. With a 500 psi pumptec pump all mounted in the van. I already have a v2 steam mate. So i would use that closer to the wand for better heat.
Second option 2 x 6.6 vacs mounted in the van next to the waste tanks. But this time I was thinking of adding a a Jaguar cub so I can use it as a through booster and also for those smaller jobs or upholstery. I know the cub has a 300 psi pump but I reckon with the v2 steam mate it should be enough the dirtiest of carpets even though it may take a while longer.
What do you guys think would be best way to go about making my van mounted system.
Thank you
Gary
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Right got my initial problem sorted today regarding getting a waste tank. I've just picked up today scorpion waste and water tanks including the frame for £200 which I'm pretty chuffed with. Now I've been weighing up which way to go about building my van mounted system. I've been thinking of 2 ways I could do it.
First option is as I originally thought 2 x 2 three stage vacuums in series parallel. With a 500 psi pumptec pump all mounted in the van. I already have a v2 steam mate. So i would use that closer to the wand for better heat.
Second option 2 x 6.6 vacs mounted in the van next to the waste tanks. But this time I was thinking of adding a a Jaguar cub so I can use it as a through booster and also for those smaller jobs or upholstery. I know the cub has a 300 psi pump but I reckon with the v2 steam mate it should be enough the dirtiest of carpets even though it may take a while longer.
What do you guys think would be best way to go about making my van mounted system.
Thank you
Gary
I think if you are going to build an ETM you should give it more power than aPorty , after all space is not a limiting factor .
Two 6.6 in parallel will have relatively low lift , you'd be better to raise the suction especially pulling through a big tank .
If you want to use two 6.6 .. the second (series) set of motors don't have to as powerful , ie you can combine each 6.6 with say a 1200w three stage which only draws about 5 amps ... giving you 13 amps percord , your pump is only around one amp .
You could also run a separate vac hose for each pair to the waste tank , giving you the option to run one cord if you get very close occasionally .
or just go with your original 4 three stages ...
Two 6.6 will have 1280airwatts
four 1400w lamb three stages will have 1800 airwatts.
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Right I think I'm gonna go with my original idea of 4 x 3 stage vacs. And I still might sell my ninja and grace machines and get a cub. As i think it could come in really handy without taking up to much space.
John have you built your own machine in the past because you seem to know quite a fair bit mate?
Thanks
Gary
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Right I think I'm gonna go with my original idea of 4 x 3 stage vacs. And I still might sell my ninja and grace machines and get a cub. As i think it could come in really handy without taking up to much space.
John have you built your own machine in the past because you seem to know quite a fair bit mate?
Thanks
Gary
I have built several in my head ! ;D
I did start one a while back , got some metal fabricated , drilled some position holes and picked up four 5.7s :) but i never got round to completing as yet .
The 4 5.7s should work well , i'd make sure to get the 1400w as they have more lift ... iv seen some 1200w advertised as 1400w so look out for that .This is the 1400w ...
http://www.1st4cleaningsupplies.co.uk/products/workshop/spare_parts_motors_pumps/vacuummotor573stage230v/
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Thanks for the link John. Hopefully mate you'll get round to complete your ETM build :)
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Gary take a look inside your current electric portables and see how much extra stuff is in there apart from just the vacs and pump. There's capacitors and other malarkey that I don't really understand fully, but you have to understand it's all there for a reason so I wouldn't just wire up 4 vac motors to the mains and hope it works! What I would do is acquire two twin-vac machines that are being scrapped and take the wiring looms out of them.
Don't forget you'll need to consider cooling - twice as many vac motors = two cooling fans and plenty of thought to air flow in/out
In the past I used to run 2 ninjas paralelled together so have run pretty much the same configuration you're planning... it worked really well and that was only with 1.5" hose! Don't choke your system with small bore plumbing - give your "box" two 2" vac outlets and fix a second 2" port to your waste tank.
There is one BIGGGGGG problem here though. Those tanks you've bought are designed to be used with a portable that has its own waste tank and its own means of keeping foam and debris out of the vac stacks. If you just build 4 vac motors into a box and connect them on to one of these tanks, you need to put some serious consideration into this problem. You don't want to just connect a pair of vacs straight through to the tank because you'll be blowing vacs left right and centre.
Just an idea that's popped in to my head... you could butcher a Ninja or something similar..... cut the vertical back panel off the fresh tank and mount your extra pair of vacs in there, soehow use the ninja's waste tank with stack pipes and ball & cage shut-offs. Hmmm, thinking as I type, might not be very easy.
You could adapt the scorpion tanks with two stack pipes that come up through the bottom of it, basically the same as in a ninja or similar. That should work ???
I bet this is going to be a lot more complicated than you first thought :)
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I did think about using tearing apart my backup grace for the project at least for the wiring.
I know what you mean about the tanks it could be a problem but I do think I can adapt them. My ninja uses a float system with a large filter. However the grace just uses a a drainer on the end of the stack with just a bit of sponge and does the same thing so I may just use a bit if sponge lol. Thanks for the advice Jim ;)
Gary