Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 06:19:06 pm

Title: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 06:19:06 pm
But if someone pes about , can you actually sack them im sure you have contracts they are on paye etc etc, has the law changed?
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Moderator David@stives on December 13, 2012, 06:50:42 pm
Yes, you can do what you want, its your business.

If they want to persue you for unfair dismall for laziness, thats up to them.

Not doing your job could be Gross misconduct, I heard of an AA guy who got sacked for nipping home.

If you are skiving that is no worse than obtaining money by deception
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 07:16:45 pm
Yes, you can do what you want, its your business.

If they want to persue you for unfair dismall for laziness, thats up to them.

Not doing your job could be Gross misconduct, I heard of an AA guy who got sacked for nipping home.

If you are skiving that is no worse than obtaining money by deception

thing is dave im kinda on the border of possibly employing someone and the main reason why i havnt is because of not being able to sack him if he pes about and getting taken to court things that a small developing business doesnt need so it kinda put me off would love to hear a bit more about this subject so are we back in the 70s where you could hire and fire i did hear the law changed slightly to the employers favour on the radio not long ago
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Moderator David@stives on December 13, 2012, 07:19:20 pm
The law favours the employer more these days.

You have to be employed for 2 years now before you can claim unfair dismissal
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 07:29:42 pm
Depending on what the  contract say about ideally,

Can't sack anyone without good reason and verbal and written warnings given to them first. Unless you are closing the business.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 07:36:26 pm
lets dissect this Dave says different,what you are saying is the reason why i havnt employed...and who chooses the contract i would just write it all in my favour so he can be sacked if he is late more then 2 times for example.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: bobplum on December 13, 2012, 07:40:14 pm
also put in the contract the right to deduct monies from their final pay salary
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 07:40:43 pm
You can't write a contract just to be in the favour of the employer.
They have to be done fair to both parties.
If they did take it to court, and three judge saw that the contract was just good for the employer then it wouldn't be any good.

Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 07:44:49 pm
ok so dave and bob are getting me excited writing my own contracts is fab richard is the bringer of woe what are the facts  :o
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 07:47:35 pm
ok so dave and bob are getting me excited writing my own contracts is fab richard is the bringer of woe what are the facts  :o

In English?
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 07:49:04 pm
in english,

I just want to know if its easier to fire people these days you are saying it isnt and thats not great imagine if i employed someone and he was a p taker
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Moderator David@stives on December 13, 2012, 07:49:30 pm
Bottom line its your business, they have to play by your rules.

If not, they are down the road, there isnt no judge going to tell me otherwise.

You can follow procedures for sacking if you want to protect yourself, as long as you follow guidelines for sacking you will have no trouble at all.

I have sacked 3 on the spot, with no comebacks.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 07:51:46 pm
in english,

I just want to know if its easier to fire people these days you are saying it isnt and thats not great imagine if i employed someone and he was a p taker

It is very easy if they have done something bad,

But just for messing around, you have no easy way to get rid of them.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 07:52:36 pm
Bottom line its your business, they have to play by your rules.

If not, they are down the road, there isnt no judge going to tell me otherwise.

You can follow procedures for sacking if you want to protect yourself, as long as you follow guidelines for sacking you will have no trouble at all.

I have sacked 3 on the spot, with no comebacks.

this is what i like to hear,im not saying im gona be a numpty and fire someone for turning up 5 mins late but i have the same views as dave, i just heard that getting rid of someone who turns up late doesnt work hard,cleans his own customers with your van, might be difficult and that was the main reason why i never hired anyone,

richard you seem to know a thing or 2 as i dont so would like to hear what you have to say to this
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 07:58:56 pm
Do you have a contract already?

For being late you can give warning for it, then progress to written one then sacked.

Using your van to clean there own customers can be felt with a written warning first then in that say if it happens again they will be sacked.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: bobplum on December 13, 2012, 08:05:32 pm
i think richard isparkle as some more info on this .
many years ago i employed a couple of painters,they walked off the job,made a mess of it ,i withheld there wages or part off to of set the mess and lost in a tribunal,under the law UNLESS ITS WRITTEN IN THERE CONTRACT you have to pay the wages and then sue them ???
as it was i got a reduction so i came out owing only what they were entitled too,so they didn't gain and i didn't loose
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 08:14:30 pm
no rich im thinking of employing so dont have one yet.
so from what i can gather is do what you think is right from dave (which i like) and from you guys make sure you have a contract in place
by the way can i get a contract from someone maybe daves seems full prove since he has sacked 3 people on the spot and never gone to court
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 08:30:21 pm
no rich im thinking of employing so dont have one yet.
so from what i can gather is do what you think is right from dave (which i like) and from you guys make sure you have a contract in place
by the way can i get a contract from someone maybe daves seems full prove since he has sacked 3 people on the spot and never gone to court
Oh right, if you want a copy of the contract I have let me know and I could email u a copy to look at.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: robertphil on December 13, 2012, 08:36:09 pm
make sure they know the trial period is 2 months. most wasters drop out within the first month iv found

 dont be soft is another tip , a lazy type will see your softness as a weakness and play you up bigtime . Weak last minute excuses are another sign of a lazy,such as frequent doctors appointment, panic attacks on buses , throwin up at 0800 etc
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 08:45:16 pm
The law favours the employer more these days.

You have to be employed for 2 years now before you can claim unfair dismissal

2 years now?  It seems to change up or down depending which party is in government.  I hadn't realised it had gone up from 1 year.  Back in the mid 70s when there was low unemployment, it was one month.

Yer if they are employed after April 2012 then is 2 yrs, if the was employed before that then it's still 1 year.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 13, 2012, 09:00:58 pm
no rich im thinking of employing so dont have one yet.
so from what i can gather is do what you think is right from dave (which i like) and from you guys make sure you have a contract in place
by the way can i get a contract from someone maybe daves seems full prove since he has sacked 3 people on the spot and never gone to court
Oh right, if you want a copy of the contract I have let me know and I could email u a copy to look at.

yes please rich could you send it to crystalclear.inbox@gmail.com
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 09:02:47 pm
no rich im thinking of employing so dont have one yet.
so from what i can gather is do what you think is right from dave (which i like) and from you guys make sure you have a contract in place
by the way can i get a contract from someone maybe daves seems full prove since he has sacked 3 people on the spot and never gone to court
OK will do, it will be in a bit for you.
Oh right, if you want a copy of the contract I have let me know and I could email u a copy to look at.

yes please rich could you send it to crystalclear.inbox@gmail.com
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Dani J on December 13, 2012, 09:17:48 pm
Best way to get rid of your bad staff, is to cut thier hours and eventually to pack up and go  ;D
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Richard iSparkle on December 13, 2012, 09:51:44 pm
Dave St Ives is right.

Firstly keep lots of notes on what they are doing wrong.  If anything goes to court this is your evidence and will reduce any payout if there is one.

Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.

It is recommended for staff that you give a warning, second warning, then possible dismissal, but these can all be done at the same time!

best thing to do is have a chat with them and encourage them to make the decision to leave.  i myself love the line 'I dont think you're happy here', and then if they say why hit them with all the things they dont do etc etc and say if you were happy you would do ...  they always decide to go when i have those chats with them...  and its usually on good terms  :)
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 09:54:44 pm


Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.


its only 2 years if they are employeed after 6th april 2012, if it was beofre that then its 1 year!


https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Richard iSparkle on December 13, 2012, 10:25:57 pm


Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.


its only 2 years if they are employeed after 6th april 2012, if it was beofre that then its 1 year!


https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed


thanks Richard.  I wasnt aware of that.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 10:31:46 pm


Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.


its only 2 years if they are employeed after 6th april 2012, if it was beofre that then its 1 year!


https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed


thanks Richard.  I wasnt aware of that.

no problem, also the citizens  advice bureau have it all here:-
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_work_comes_to_an_end_e/dismissal.htm

plus they have a section on there that states:-

Generally, to claim unfair dismissal, you have to have worked for your employer for at least one year if you started working for your employer before 6 April 2012 or two years if you started on or after 6 April 2012.

However, there are special rules for people who have worked for their employer for less than the required amount of time. See under headings Automatically unfair dismissal, and Step 3: have you been discriminated against.

Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: G Griffin on December 13, 2012, 10:32:08 pm
Crystal Clear, do you want to employ someone or just sack them?  ;D

I like it again, Bobby- "panic attack on buses"  :D.
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Richard iSparkle on December 13, 2012, 10:55:52 pm


Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.


its only 2 years if they are employeed after 6th april 2012, if it was beofre that then its 1 year!


https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed


thanks Richard.  I wasnt aware of that.

no problem, also the citizens  advice bureau have it all here:-
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_work_comes_to_an_end_e/dismissal.htm

plus they have a section on there that states:-

Generally, to claim unfair dismissal, you have to have worked for your employer for at least one year if you started working for your employer before 6 April 2012 or two years if you started on or after 6 April 2012.

However, there are special rules for people who have worked for their employer for less than the required amount of time. See under headings Automatically unfair dismissal, and Step 3: have you been discriminated against.



By being dicriminated against is where the

1. racial discrim
2. sex discrim (are they pregnant?)
3. disability discrim

become important... 

this is what i understand that HR legal teams worry about.  My wife has worked in employee relations HR for 15 years for Icelands so that's where I get my advice from!  :)
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 13, 2012, 11:01:40 pm


Secondly they cannot claim unfair dismissal until they've worked 2 years for you.  That means unless they are pregnant, disabled, or classed as a racial minority they have no come back if you sack them.  this means yes you will get away with sacking them on the spot for whatever reason you come up with unless they're with you over 2 yrs.


its only 2 years if they are employeed after 6th april 2012, if it was beofre that then its 1 year!


https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed


thanks Richard.  I wasnt aware of that.

no problem, also the citizens  advice bureau have it all here:-
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_work_comes_to_an_end_e/dismissal.htm

plus they have a section on there that states:-

Generally, to claim unfair dismissal, you have to have worked for your employer for at least one year if you started working for your employer before 6 April 2012 or two years if you started on or after 6 April 2012.

However, there are special rules for people who have worked for their employer for less than the required amount of time. See under headings Automatically unfair dismissal, and Step 3: have you been discriminated against.



By being dicriminated against is where the

1. racial discrim
2. sex discrim (are they pregnant?)
3. disability discrim

become important... 

this is what i understand that HR legal teams worry about.  My wife has worked in employee relations HR for 15 years for Icelands so that's where I get my advice from!  :)

4. sexual orientation
5. age discrimination
6. your religion

there is another 3 to add to the list
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: Crystal-clear on December 14, 2012, 11:06:38 am
Thanks for sending the contracts over rich, lol griff no. But I remember when I was employed many moons ago I would have sacked myself I don't want to be stuck with a non productive staff member looking at these posts it seems I'm ok taken note of the 2 year thing amongs everything els
Title: Re: "just sack em" Dave n Rhino (i like)
Post by: R.C Property on December 14, 2012, 11:37:54 am
Thanks for sending the contracts over rich, lol griff no. But I remember when I was employed many moons ago I would have sacked myself I don't want to be stuck with a non productive staff member looking at these posts it seems I'm ok taken note of the 2 year thing amongs everything els

no problem, hope you can get some ideas from them.