Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: GB Window Cleaning on June 07, 2012, 05:20:45 pm
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so i dont know if this as been brought up on here since its been on the new but id feel bad if i didnt and it happened to one of us!
does anyone know the risks? im wfp with a 350ltr van tank, the thing on my mind is that i never actually empty the tank fully (very nearly some days though) and im concerned the little bit of water always left in the tank could carry Legionnaires!
opinions welcome, good bad and indifferent! :)
george
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check this out!.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionellosis ...
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as far as i was told the water has to be above 23 degrees for it to grow in the water ,and i have taken regular readings and my pure only got to 15,4 degrees.if it was to get warmer i would add a uv light :)
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as far as i was told the water has to be above 23 degrees for it to grow in the water ,and i have taken regular readings and my pure only got to 15,4 degrees.if it was to get warmer i would add a uv light :)
so it is something we should be worried about you think? im gonna test my water temp now and let you know what mine is
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This is from wiki!...
70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
At 60 °C (140 °F): They die within 32 minutes
At 55 °C (131 °F): They die within 5 to 6 hours
Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Growth range
Below 20 °C (68 °F): They can survive but are dormant
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I suspect that if you have water left in your van tank over a hot weekend with the van in the sun, you could easily get over 20deg.
Ditto if you have an IBC in the sun (especially a black one like me).
Possibly worth a bleaching once in a while.
Vin
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Leigionella is only contractable(is that a word?) when it is airbourne. Im pretty sure we cant pick it up from washing the windows down.
Unless there are mico particles coming down that are absolutley riddled, you would then have to have the misfortune of inhaling the dropletts and then the virus taking hold.
It's ever so slightly possible proable more chance of winning the big Euro lottery this friday...
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Your water also has to become contaminated with the host/source of the infection to start with before you can worry about it multiplying...
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Fan jets, droplets?
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Your water also has to become contaminated with the host/source of the infection to start with before you can worry about it multiplying...
It would equally be valid to ask how you would know if it were clear.
From WP: "Legionella live within amoebae in the natural environment" so I get the impression you can't escape the damned thing.
A bleach once in a while might be worth a punt; certainly over the summer. Detecting it is tough, so prevention may be better than cure. I've been considering this for some time. Lots of my customers are elderly (aren't they all?) and I'd hate to kill them off. After all, I need their cash...
I'm thinking of a bottle of unscented thin bleach in a full IBC. Leave for 12 hours, pump into van tank, wait another 12 hours, rinse out.
Do it over a weekend and my total time input will be negligible. Possible payoff, massive.
Vin
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interesting thoughts hmmmmmm well my temp at the moment is 18 c!
do any of you test for legionnaires and if so how?
thanks for all the interest so far!
george
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Your water also has to become contaminated with the host/source of the infection to start with before you can worry about it multiplying...
It would equally be valid to ask how you would know if it were clear.
From WP: "Legionella live within amoebae in the natural environment" so I get the impression you can't escape the damned thing.
A bleach once in a while might be worth a punt; certainly over the summer. Detecting it is tough, so prevention may be better than cure. I've been considering this for some time. Lots of my customers are elderly (aren't they all?) and I'd hate to kill them off. After all, I need their cash...
I'm thinking of a bottle of unscented thin bleach in a full IBC. Leave for 12 hours, pump into van tank, wait another 12 hours, rinse out.
Do it over a weekend and my total time input will be negligible. Possible payoff, massive.
Vin
so bleach kills it hey? i might follow your lead if thats gonna prevent manslaughter charges ???
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O fcku we are all going to die.
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i was told that all water has it in it and that pure is more of a problem because we take out the calcium ,i make 5000l a week and use it all so it does not sit long,also got a mate who is in the navy and they have to steralise there water tankes once a year to meet h/s
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I think it would be wise to go to the Doctors tomorrow and check if we might just have this bug as my muscles ache on some days.
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I think it would be wise to go to the Doctors tomorrow and check if we might just have this bug as my muscles ache on some days.
;D mine do too now you mention it hehehehe
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i wonder if anyone has caught the disease through a wfp set up? ???
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i was told that all water has it in it and that pure is more of a problem because we take out the calcium ,i make 5000l a week and use it all so it does not sit long,also got a mate who is in the navy and they have to steralise there water tankes once a year to meet h/s
so maybe we should start following the navy's H & S procedures! out of interest what does your mate use to steralise the tanks?
thanks
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i just found this on another (yes they do exist ;D) windy forum...
...Your query concerning legionella bacteria and window cleaning has come
through to me. You ask a number of questions in your message which may be
better talking through over the phone. However, I am out of the office for
two weeks beginning tomorrow so in case you don't pick this message up in
time, here are some of my thoughts regarding your questions:
"Can pure water incubate the Legionnaires' Disease?"
The answer here is that legionella will not tend to multiply to dangerous
levels in pure water because they need nutrients to grow and divide.
However, most water will contain some impurities that will act as a
nutrients source for legionella e.g., contamination in pipework - you'd
have to go to some lengths to ensure that water is totally uncontaminated.
"What precautions must window cleaners take to prevent Legionnaires'
disease?"
As well as nutrients, legionella bacteria require temperatures to fall
between 20C and 45C for them to grow and divide. Clearly in warm weather,
like we've had lately, there is potential for stored water to reach these
temperatures. Therefore the approach to take in order to control risks
from legionella would be one that took into account both cleanliness of
the system and water temperatures i.e.,
keep system (pipework, storage tanks, purification equipment) clean
if possible, take steps to keep stored water temperature below 20C.
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makes you wonder about hot water systems eh
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makes you wonder about hot water systems eh
yea it does doesnt it... they wont grow past 70c (according to wikipeadia)
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he did tell me what he used but cant remember what he called it ,i will ask him and let you know
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he did tell me what he used but cant remember what he called it ,i will ask him and let you know
thanks mathew
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just phoned him ,use granular hsch (chlorine).high strength calcium hypochlorite.
80 grames per 1000l leave for 24 hours empty fill with clean water leave for 30 mins all done
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just phoned him ,use granular hsch (chlorine).high strength calcium hypochlorite.
80 grames per 1000l leave for 24 hours empty fill with clean water leave for 30 mins all done
thank for that mate.... when you say "80 grames per 1000l leave for 24 hours empty fill with clean water leave for 30 mins all done"
the part where you say at the end "fill with clean water leave for 30 mins"...then what after the 30 mins? i dont get it!
surley after you fill it with clean water its ready for work and that it?!?! i i missed a trick here? :)
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makes you wonder about hot water systems eh
Most hot water systems would be on demand ie cold water feed heated quickly when required. Maybe the guys using immersion elements might be more at risk? Having said that I believe some companies give the option of recirculating hot water through the tank.
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leave for 30 mins is to rinse the tank you would dump this as well tap water would be fine for this
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makes you wonder about hot water systems eh
Most hot water systems would be on demand ie cold water feed heated quickly when required. Maybe the guys using immersion elements might be more at risk? Having said that I believe some companies give the option of recirculating hot water through the tank.
ours circulates into the tank and warm water sits there everyday... oh dear :(
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makes you wonder about hot water systems eh
Most hot water systems would be on demand ie cold water feed heated quickly when required. Maybe the guys using immersion elements might be more at risk? Having said that I believe some companies give the option of recirculating hot water through the tank.
I had the option of recycling hot water into the tank when i had ours fitted, but was told by (I think at the time) Ionics when i was researching, that they wouldn't advise and fit that option due to the risks of legionnaires. That was 4 years ago.
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high strength calcium hypochlorite.
This is the chlorine that one uses to sterilise swimming pool water,which you can get from a pool shop and must be de-solved in a bucket of water as it could sink to the bottom of your tank. |After 24 hours most of the chlorine will evaporate and you will need to flush the tank and fill with water and flush out again. WHEN FILLING WITH PURE YOU WILL NEED TO TAKE A SAMPLE FROM YOUR TANK AND CHECK ITS tds. This process will not last as the new batch of water could contaminate again soon after the flushing a U V lite would be a better option if its a static tank or just hung in you van tank on week ends.
For me I will not do any as the chances are very slip.I will be more careful when driving as my chances are a lot more risky in the street.
The case in Scotland there were a lot more than meets the eye as the water was heated and running through a cooling tower which would atomise the water.
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leave for 30 mins is to rinse the tank you would dump this as well tap water would be fine for this
oohhh i see matt!! silly me. thanks for that mate, your idea seems the most appealing to me at the moment
george
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high strength calcium hypochlorite.
This is the chlorine that one uses to sterilise swimming pool water,which you can get from a pool shop and must be de-solved in a bucket of water as it could sink to the bottom of your tank. |After 24 hours most of the chlorine will evaporate and you will need to flush the tank and fill with water and flush out again. WHEN FILLING WITH PURE YOU WILL NEED TO TAKE A SAMPLE FROM YOUR TANK AND CHECK ITS tds. This process will not last as the new batch of water could contaminate again soon after the flushing a U V lite would be a better option if its a static tank or just hung in you van tank on week ends.
For me I will not do any as the chances are very slip.I will be more careful when driving as my chances are a lot more risky in the street.
The case in Scotland there were a lot more than meets the eye as the water was heated and running through a cooling tower which would atomise the water.
thanks for that very insightfull!
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here is an official goverment veiw!......
http://www.hse.gov.uk/healthservices/legionella.htm
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Dont forget Legionaires can develope in windscreen washer bottle if you just use water . Now we are all doomed how many people just top up with tap water .
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so to conclude this topic... is anyone actually bothered about this, i mean am i worrying about not a lot of risk? bearing in mind i very very rarley let any water sit for more than couple of days
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Well, for about thirty quid you can get enough chemicals to clean out your entire system once a month for five years.
So, for anyone using an immersion, I'd say it was definitely worth it - if you get it wrong you could kill a customer.
For anyone else, once a month through the summer might be worth it. A few minutes of actual work and a bit of messing with a tank of water.
I'm going to add it to what I do (I'm cold, so summer only) but I suspect most won't.
Vin
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Well, for about thirty quid you can get enough chemicals to clean out your entire system once a month for five years.
So, for anyone using an immersion, I'd say it was definitely worth it - if you get it wrong you could kill a customer.
For anyone else, once a month through the summer might be worth it. A few minutes of actual work and a bit of messing with a tank of water.
I'm going to add it to what I do (I'm cold, so summer only) but I suspect most won't.
Vin
ok vin im on your side with this one, after all prevention is better than a cure or in this case a manslaughter charge!
so me and mate... what are you gonna do? im all hears mate! what chemicals and method etc? ;)
george
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vin... just to add im also cold so think i will do once a month just in summer too!
also will you be testing for legionaires as well as cleaning the tank?
and... what about the pipe work to and from the pump and or di vessel etc?
oh one more thing ( in a columbo voice) what about the water in an ro's prefilter etc?
thankyou
george
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I'm going to pop to a pool place near me and buy Chlorine shock granules - they are calcium hypochlorite.
Empty IBC (needs it anyway as it's not been emptied for a year).
On a Thursday evening when the van tank's full, bung 80g of the powder into a bucket and fill with pure. Put into IBC. Fill to brim with pure. Leave for 12h.
Then transfer using normal pump etc into van tank (now empty after Friday cleans). Leave. I might add another 40g into the tank befor loading it up, but I'm not sure; that's in case the chlorine has all been used in the IBC - you need free chlorine that hasn't reacted. Should clear the transfer pump and hose (I can make sure the hose remains full of the solution as I have a stoppable nozzle on it).
Run the tankful out of the van via the reel hoses.
Flush out the IBC and tank with pure.
Fill IBC with pure.
Hopefully that'll do it.
Testing: every site I've looked at says don't bother; there'll be legionella in almost every sample so you won't find anything out.
At the very least I'm doing something about it...
Vin
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thanks alot for that info vin i will have to read that all again later to properly analyse what your doing and see how a can use your methods for my set up, which is just a van tank i have no ibc static to worry about yo see!
okay seems like testing is not needed then!
and yeah at least were doing something abaout it mate i agree with you!
speak soon mate and thanks again!
george
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vin... check this out mate a couple of interesting things about additives .........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hypochlorite
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Answer for above. Liked the tread above but remember if you bought it over the counter at a pool shop it would contain copper which would my it slow release,it will take longer to de-solve.
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Is this post a wind up ?
Talk about urban myths
Ionics have done a lot of research on this, I would check what they have to say
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Is this post a wind up ?
Talk about urban myths
Ionics have done a lot of research on this, I would check what they have to say
"Urban myth"? In what way? (one definiton of an urban myth: A story, generally untrue but sometimes one that is merely exaggerated or sensational, that gains the status of folklore by continual retelling. Such stories, which may be old and cliché-ridden, are often given a degree of plausibility by being updated in a contemporary setting, or by the teller's claims of personal involvement.)
We're creating aerosol sprays of water that may be stored in a tank above 20 deg for some time. That's a potential problem.
Can't see anything by ionics despite my best Googling efforts; not even on a site search. ( http://tinyurl.com/cyou3ua )
FWC seem to think it might be worth taking it into account: http://i.thelocalpeople.co.uk/business/zone98/subzone1/14437793/docs/3866.pdf
Vin
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Didn't someone once suggest on here that the Legionnaires scare with WFP was originally started by the ladder manufacturers who were worried about lose of business?
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The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.
The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.
The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella
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The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.
The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.
The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella
The comment I have put in bold above is a stupid comment to make Dave, more so that your a moderator. Legionella Kills people do you not watch the news ?
If there is a risk and there is, it is defo worth worrying about and preventing it do you not think ?
Our tank water in the summer months cold is not 5 degrees sat in the van (you may want to test that with a temp gage to show yourself that your wrong there mate.
Anyone that uses a static will be a lot higher than that.
The problem I see with this is the hot water some people use and cycle it back to the tank, this is a real risk
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The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.
The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.
The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella
Hmmmm interesting david. the thing is i would say the water im filling up with at the moment is defo well above freezing point (around 17c) thanks
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its not something i worry about myself as i use a cold system and water is changed every day when working.leaving the van for a couple of days in hot weather with a full tank?i dont think so as ill be out working!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
how long does the water have to be at a certain temperature before legionnaires starts growing?and if the water temperature drops overnight does this kill the bacteria?if so us with cold systems have nothing to worry about.i wouldnt be so sure with a hot system though.although i have no plans to go hot.
also is it stagnant water at a certain temperature for weeks on end that could be a breeding ground for it?if so again it wont be a problem for us as temperature will always fluctuate and water ends up getting sloshed about even though i have a baffled tank.
its probably nothing to worry about although i think ill read up on it.
regards
dazmond
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Hi
Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,
Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO our water is never stagnant for long enough,
We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.
I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,
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Hi
Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,
Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO our water is never stagnant for long enough,
We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.
I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,
we are different from them David we run a business that carries water and many using hot water, and many using an emersion heater, have you had a bump on the head, I put you last post down to being a saturday night with football on so maybe you had a few beers.
no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella
Thats a good thing! and I for one would not want to be the first.
it is better to be safe than sorry is it not ?
Air con units we all take for granted and they are a main problem, this is more aimed at people using hot water than cold, could you imagine if one of your guys (god forbid) the HSE says "Mr Morris what did you do to prevent this from happening?", your reply "I did'nt worry about it". Can see that standing up have a valid acceptable answer.
You clearly cannot remember much about this as you have already said, maybe you should just have a read up to refresh yourself .
I personally don't use hot water, but I would prefer to be armed with the knowledge than not worry and risk others health.
And as a moderator should you not lead by example ?
Now I am not saying that everyone is in danger, but if there is a risk, that risk should be looked into to prevent it, don't you agree?
Ian
P.s woke with a head ache so little grumpy this morning
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So with these hot systems, is water at a constant sufficient temp and stagnent enough to encourage bacteria ?
If there was a problem, wouldn't we see suppliers jumping on the band wagon or the government identifying us as a risk group, as I'm the case of these aqueous tunnels
http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sectors/manuf/03-09-06.htm
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So with these hot systems, is water at a constant sufficient temp and stagnent enough to encourage bacteria.
If there was a problem, wouldn't we we suppliers jumping on the band wagon or the government identifying us as a risk group, as I'm the case of these aqueous tunnels
http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sectors/manuf/03-09-06.htm
for many using emusion heaters, what do you think ? also the ones feeding back to the tank the hot water. we use sprays of water do we not.
we at the moment are flying under the radar, you can tell this by the insurance companies, some of the vans I have seen in the past month are hazards waiting to happen, I just hope this is not one of them because if it does happen I guarentee it will affect a lot of business using wfp systems yours included and is sure to hit the news.
One of the benifits of using Cold Water ;D
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Please explain in your first statement how quickly the legionella will grow and how it will happen,
The way I see it after an 8 hour shift the system will be shut off and ultimately the system will then cool, also the system wouldnt be stagnant if in use.
The "spray" term mainly refers to "aerosol" as opposes to being jetted out of a small bore hose
As for being under the radar, I don't think so, the hse are pretty much spot on, they even stopped pat testing there own electrical equipment due to the risk being so minuscule.
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Hi
Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,
Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO our water is never stagnant for long enough,
We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.
I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,
It's rarely I disagree with you Dave, but we are different form people with a header tank in their loft; we're producing an aerosol of water at height around the homes of (very often) elderly people.
I'll have a check of the temp of water in my tank after a Thursday evening fill and the van spending a couple of days in the sun over the weekend (The timings aren't too uncommon for me, even if the sun is at the mo).
Vin
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Please explain in your first statement how quickly the legionella will grow and how it will happen,
The way I see it after an 8 hour shift the system will be shut off and ultimately the system will then cool, also the system wouldnt be stagnant if in use.
The "spray" term mainly refers to "aerosol" as opposes to being jetted out of a small bore hose
As for being under the radar, I don't think so, the hse are pretty much spot on, they even stopped pat testing there own electrical equipment due to the risk being so minuscule.
I found a pdf from wras for you all to read: http://www.wras.co.uk/PDF_Files/Preheated_Water_Report.pdf
Dave the part where you say we don't use aerosol, we break the surfuce of water into a spray (aerosol type) if you have not seen this before look up when it is coming off the window or stand back and watch one of your guys cleaning and you will see a mist (airborne water, which is where legionnaires will be, should it be present)
Without blowing this well out of proportion, it is a risk and should be looked at as such.
this post is mostly aimed at hot water users, but we all should be aware of risks we could/can face.
Sorry for the delay I was cutting the grass ;D
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Wow this has got really interesting! keep it up lads! ;D im glad i started this topic now! even if i turn out to be completly wrong i still feel im doing the best thing by raising this issue!
infact i hope i am wrong! and there is no concern!
george
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We have just finished a very heavy weekend of drain jetting, in heavy rain, a very very wet environment with most kinds of water in the surrounding environment & airborne.
Both of us came away from the works on Monday morning with a heavy cough and a rough chest.
I have since revised method statements to include airborne water particles and the inhalation of the said water and am doing ongoing research into the problems caused by our constant work environment. I have some concerns to the point that we may start using mouth & nose coverings (of some description).
Because of the nature of my work/s I am more concerned with Weils disease but the principles are the same, inhalation of water droplets.
The lining of the lungs can and does cope with some water but not at high saturations and the end result can and has killed people. I have seen all the things on inhaling vapours and E-cigs for pleasure & medicinal purposes and as I have said this is ongoing
I know I felt bad on Monday morning and it took a few days for the symptoms to wear off. This was enough for the revisions in my work practises.
I don't want to get into the argument about Legionella but I am a little more cautious than most and if I was using it every day I would be looking at a regular disinfectant programme.
In my works we are surrounded by saturated air, all day everyday - I would say to some degree so is WFP window cleaning but to a much lesser degree and you are not as on top of it as we are.
My method statements and risk assessments and my decisions to include certain criteria or not are for my piece of mind and hopefully show the client that I am doing all I can to minimise any risk.
Just because someone tells you it is ok that doesn't necessarily make it correct, make your own judgement and go from there.
The reality is that a defence of someone on a public forum told me it would be ok may not stand up in court.
Good luck
Rob ;D
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Wow this has got really interesting! keep it up lads! ;D im glad i started this topic now! even if i turn out to be completly wrong i still feel im doing the best thing by raising this issue!
infact i hope i am wrong! and there is no concern!
george
I am glad you raised this subject nice one ;), it shows you think also great for everyone that never thought about it before, and also help people brush up on details.
Any other posts like your thinking about ?t start up new threads on each very interesting to read ;)
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mind and always use screenwash in your vans resivoir,kills 99 or 100% bacteria.
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right listen, dave is right, there is nothing we do that will cause legionaries, it is in almost every source of water and even if you drink it will not harm you, it has to be a vapour before that happens, we do not cause a vapour, small streams through jets or spray through fan jets but vapour no, yes the guys with tanks circulating warm water are encouraging growth but it is still harmless, unless you send a few thousand gallons up a cooling tower or whatever
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The previous thread got me think ,its the isopropanol in the screen wash that would kill germs SO ONE COULD JUST ADD ISO INTO YOUR WATER TANK AND KILL ANY GERMS THERE MIGHT BE.IT WOULD BE THE EASIEST SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM IF IT WORRIED YOU.
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right listen, dave is right, there is nothing we do that will cause legionaries, it is in almost every source of water and even if you drink it will not harm you, it has to be a vapour before that happens, we do not cause a vapour, small streams through jets or spray through fan jets but vapour no, yes the guys with tanks circulating warm water are encouraging growth but it is still harmless, unless you send a few thousand gallons up a cooling tower or whatever
you may want to go and read up on it a little more Stuart
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So how can you get the disease from a shower? My shower doesn't vaporise the water like my fan jets do. The trouble on this forum is that everyone is an expert.
In reality someone needs to talk to a proper 'expert' and remove the guesswork.
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OK, done some research.
This applies only to my situation, so yours may be different.
Filled tank in van on Friday afternoon as normal.
Filled IBC (black, in 30-90% shade depending on sun position) in garden on Friday as normal.
Weather: Yesterday, bright but not sunny. Today, bright and sunny until 2, bright but overcast since.
Sun hits van from about 9am.
Measurements at 17:40 today.
Temperature of water in IBC 17.6deg
Temperature of water in van 23.4deg
From: http://www.hse.gov.uk/healthservices/legionella.htm "Legionella bacteria is commonly found in water. The bacteria multiply where temperatures are between 20-45°C and nutrients are available"
That puts it in the danger region for temperature. Whether nutrients are available is a moot point - my water's currently TDS003 - is that enough?. A warm weekend and I'm prepared to bet that the temperature of the water in the van would have been much higher.
I'm putting this into my risk assessment for the summer months. By all means tell me I'm wrong and that you don't need to.
Vin
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right listen, dave is right, there is nothing we do that will cause legionaries, it is in almost every source of water and even if you drink it will not harm you, it has to be a vapour before that happens, we do not cause a vapour, small streams through jets or spray through fan jets but vapour no, yes the guys with tanks circulating warm water are encouraging growth but it is still harmless, unless you send a few thousand gallons up a cooling tower or whatever
Stuart,
I'm not sure that's quite accurate. For the transmission of legionnaire's disease the water doesn't have to be a vapour, it has to be an aerosol (suspension of droplets in a gas). There is a significant difference. You're right, we do not create a vapour, but we very definitely do create an aerosol.
Look up at an upstairs window tomorrow towards the sun and you'll see spray everywhere, whether you're using fans or pencils. That suspension of water droplets in air is an aerosol.
Vin
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well nobodys caught it yet using wfp so we're fine. :P
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im still deciding if its worth me doing anything about this or not to be honest ???
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So how can you get the disease from a shower? My shower doesn't vaporise the water like my fan jets do. The trouble on this forum is that everyone is an expert.
In reality someone needs to talk to a proper 'expert' and remove the guesswork.
1. Unclean shower head
2. Steam is water vapour - a "hot" shower produces steam/vapour - just like a water cooling tower
I think to all practical purposes this is a load of "who shot John" ...
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Actually, I've changed my mind,
My advice now is "ignore it and it'll go away".
Vin
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Actually, I've changed my mind,
My advice now is "ignore it and it'll go away".
Vin
How about "it was never here"?
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Actually, I've changed my mind,
My advice now is "ignore it and it'll go away".
Vin
How about "it was never here"?
Read through the thread.
Someone asked a question about legionnaire's.
Since then we've been told that:
It can't be contracted from washing windows down as it needs to be airborne
It's an urban myth
Water in tanks remains at tap temperature
Water in tanks is freezing
We are no different from people with a water butt in their back garden
We do not cause a vapour
We do not cause an aerosol
Legionnaires is cause by unclean shower heads.
All of which smack to me of putting your head under the bedclothes to avoid the monsters.
Factually, the water in my tanks (measured, not opinion, see post above) hits the danger zone. Factually, I produce an aerosol of water from that tank. Factually, an aerosol of water with legionella in it can infect people 500m away (some reports claim 6km but that appears uncertain).
I know you're unpersuadable and that any risk that hasn't already occurred never can occur, so ridicule it and ignore it and it'll go away.
Vin
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i know what your saying vin...
ive sort of come to the conclusion (right or wrong) that the water in my van tank (i dont have an ibc) is not stored long enough to pruduce risky amount of leggionella!?
also i make a oint now of not keeping water stored for any amount of time e.g... i fill up OVER night and use the next day! (mostly)
thanks vin
george
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I think it's in the same category as strapping tanks in vans.
It's a risk, probably a small one, but a potentially lethal one.
No one has died from it yet wfp and no-one has a report of being squashed by their tank either.
One day though, it will probably happen somewhere.
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if your working most days then your water is constantly being used and replenished so i dont think we have anything to worry about.i use cold water so no problems although its VERY LUKE WARM on hot sunny days!! ;D ;D ;D ;D