Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lee Burbidge on April 20, 2012, 07:16:44 pm
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There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety :)
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There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety :)
I would like to know how safe we are at 60 mph should we crash.
Also Are ratchet straps safe to carry our loads of water.
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There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety :)
I would like to know how safe we are at 60 mph should we crash.
Also Are ratchet straps safe to carry our loads of water.
Thank you Window Washer, I will put that question to MIRA :)
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Yes 5 ton ratchet straps I'm interested in what speed will they be good enough with
A quarter to half a ton of water behind you please lee
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either :( ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question ;) are you becoming a troll ?
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I am waiting to hear this answer because my set up is 450 litres and ratchet straps at four points.
also on a tank which way should the baffles go mine go front to back ... is this best?
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either :( ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question ;) are you becoming a troll ?
Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.
As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?
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I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?
The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.
What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?
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Up until the 1990's and the introduction of seat belt tensioners, airbags, side reinforcement bars etc if you were travelling in a car at 30 mph and crashed headlong into a tree you would most likely be dead - as several of my friends proved. Safety has become an obsession and rightly so. Vans have progressed massively in this time in terms of safety but nothing is inherently safe.
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Yes 5 ton ratchet straps I'm interested in what speed will they be good enough with
A quarter to half a ton of water behind you please lee
Ok Colin.
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I guess that would be down to the safety system of the vehicle.
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I am waiting to hear this answer because my set up is 450 litres and ratchet straps at four points.
also on a tank which way should the baffles go mine go front to back ... is this best?
I will raise the question
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I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?
The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.
What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?
Thank you Mark. I have all that down. :)
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Up until the 1990's and the introduction of seat belt tensioners, airbags, side reinforcement bars etc if you were travelling in a car at 30 mph and crashed headlong into a tree you would most likely be dead - as several of my friends proved. Safety has become an obsession and rightly so. Vans have progressed massively in this time in terms of safety but nothing is inherently safe.
I agree :)
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I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?
The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.
What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?
In an ideal world all of these questions could very easily be answered if you were to take a van along to MIRA, pay the crash-test fee and and go crash testing! - financially though it's better if a research facility doe this on our behalf. I also would be interested to see if any research centre (MIRA and Thatcham included) has ever tested bulkheads or loading loops. In all of my dealings with MIRA during our crash-test process for the GrippaMax systems, I never heard them mention any van internal fixing data or crash testing.
I did learn a lot though about the force that is unleashed during a simulated dead-stop - it is fairly awesome and if you are standing nearby it can be quite scary. The main difference between the concrete block crash-test (such as Ionics used) and HyGe test sled that we used is that the concrete block test utilises the crumple energy absorbing zone on the front of the van. Whilst this looks and behaves very much like driving a van into a bridge support at 30mph it does allow the highly engineered van's crumple zone to start absorbing a lot of the energy from the impact before the tank restraints start to feel the strain. Using the HyGe sled means that the full force of the simulated 31mph impact is absorbed just by the tank restraint - there is no cushion to absorb some of the force involved. I believe that this is a tougher test of the strength of the restraint system.
In response to some of your other questions - In our testing we used a fully loaded tank as we believed that this would put the restraint under greater force and this is of course backed up by the mathematics of physics. We found that the two restraint issues were stopping the tank crushing in on itself and stopping the whole structure sliding forward along the floor. We stopped the first one with a redesign of the tank structure - lower is better and no fancy shapes just a tough rectangular box. The second took a little more time, but we got there in the end with a structure that had zero forward movement providing absolutely no penetration into the passenger zone. None of this is cheap though and the whole process of designing testing and bringing to market a crash-test system cost about £55,000 - we felt it was worth doing as others have also felt such as Ionics who started the whole process off.
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Thanks Alex, very informative (as usual). I wondered if a half full tank was worse than a full one because of the sloshing effect of all the water shifting but obviously the total weight must be the issue. I actually prefer the handling of my van when full because it becomes a bit unstable once the water can move about.
Many of us carry family in the front of the van at weekends and this is the biggest reason I went for a bolted in system plus I wanted an upright and I didn't think straps alone would hold it. At the time it would have made more sense for me to use Ionics as a) theirs is crash tested and b) they are just down the road from me but due to the way they come across on this forum I kind of have no interest in them. I went for Pure Freedom in the end which meant a ridiculous drive and a system that although seems very good has no proof it would stand up to a crash. The same for Concept20 too I would imagine.
There are several methods of securing tanks being supplied by other sources that make me cringe to be honest. I suppose one day some poor cleaner will get killed in an accident and then we will all wake up to the danger.
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Thanks Alex, very informative (as usual). I wondered if a half full tank was worse than a full one because of the sloshing effect of all the water shifting but obviously the total weight must be the issue. I actually prefer the handling of my van when full because it becomes a bit unstable once the water can move about.
Many of us carry family in the front of the van at weekends and this is the biggest reason I went for a bolted in system plus I wanted an upright and I didn't think straps alone would hold it. At the time it would have made more sense for me to use Ionics as a) theirs is crash tested and b) they are just down the road from me but due to the way they come across on this forum I kind of have no interest in them. I went for Pure Freedom in the end which meant a ridiculous drive and a system that although seems very good has no proof it would stand up to a crash. The same for Concept20 too I would imagine.
There are several methods of securing tanks being supplied by other sources that make me cringe to be honest. I suppose one day some poor cleaner will get killed in an accident and then we will all wake up to the danger.
We tested with a full tank because it put the maximum possible weight on the restraints, but in a non-baffled tank the slosh effect of a half full tank will put another strain on the system. However with our system's tanks (and I believe the Ionics' ones) they have a honeycomb baffling which reduces this effect to a minimum. Our tanks also have structural baffles which have helped to make the tank very, very strong however on their own they would not be enough to control the slosh.
We have designed our tanks (after initial crash tests) to be the flattest crash-tested moulded tanks available. An upright tank will want to 'fall forward' on a crash which would rip up the rear mountings. The other downside of an upright tank is that the centre of gravity of the van will be significantly raised which will affect handling and even fuel economy. If you have the choice (space-wise) go for a flat tank.
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either :( ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question ;) are you becoming a troll ?
Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.
As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?
i cant call you as you hide behind a fake name ;)
the question I asked, I would like to know the answers to hence why I asked it, maybe you had a little trouble understanding my question. :-*
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Might be worth asking MIRA if a half-full tank will indeed "slosh". My guess is that it wouldn't; I think accidents are too quick, e.g. 0.07 seconds (for evidence, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMl-WQ5XkMI from impact to stop = 0.07 seconds or so).
My intuition would say that in 0.07 seconds, there will be minimal sloshing during the deceleration phase. I'd suspect the weight of water in the tank will behave like the same mass of bricks and just hurtle straight forward. I may well be wrong, but could the guys at MIRA confirm or deny that?
Also, if a load strap is rated at 5T, does that mean you can hook a 5T weight straight onto it and it'll support it, or does it mean that if you gradually increase the weight to 5T it'll support it? Have they done crash tests on loads of any kind supported by ratchet straps? What were the results?
What impulse can a typical bulkhead withstand?
Do they have data on the distribution of accident speeds on UK roads (are 60mph accidents 1% or 50% of accidents)?
Vin
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I don't need to know if ratchet straps are safe or not, just if it is a legal way to carry water
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I don't need to know if ratchet straps are safe or not, just if it is a legal way to carry water
so if it was legal yet dangerous this would not bother you ?
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I don't need to know if ratchet straps are safe or not, just if it is a legal way to carry water
so if it was legal yet dangerous this would not bother you ?
every thing we do in life is dangerous, but as long as we abide within the law at least we can't be prosecuted, of course if I found out it was dangerous I would limit the probability of it happening, but others have already asked the question, so I specifically want to know if it is legal or not, the safety aspect will be answered anyway
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I don't need to know if ratchet straps are safe or not, just if it is a legal way to carry water
so if it was legal yet dangerous this would not bother you ?
every thing we do in life is dangerous, but as long as we abide within the law at least we can't be prosecuted, of course if I found out it was dangerous I would limit the probability of it happening, but others have already asked the question, so I specifically want to know if it is legal or not, the safety aspect will be answered anyway
If you're only worried about legal responsibility and you're not employing someone then why not just bung an IBC loose in the back?
You'll only really risk prosecution if you get killed, so it won't matter.
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The main difference between the concrete block crash-test (such as Ionics used) and HyGe test sled that we used is that the concrete block test utilises the crumple energy absorbing zone on the front of the van
You seem to forget that Ionics also did the sled test at 31mph (and passed it) AS WELL AS the crashing into the concrete block test.
http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing_development_tests.html
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The main difference between the concrete block crash-test (such as Ionics used) and HyGe test sled that we used is that the concrete block test utilises the crumple energy absorbing zone on the front of the van
You seem to forget that Ionics also did the hyper-g sled test at 31mph (and 3 other as well) AS WELL AS the concrete block test.
http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing_development_tests.html
Hi Nick
I was pointing out the difference between a concrete block test, such as that used by Ionics, and the HyGe sled testing. You are right though that it is easy to overlook the HyGe sled testing that Ionics did as they tend to focus on and promote the concrete block test on their website and literature. To be honest for pure testing purposes if you have done the HyGe sled test then you do not really need to carry out the concrete block test - although the latter test does look more spectacular in video form.
The concrete block test does help though to impact on clients' minds the destructive forces that be wreaked on van and contents at just 31mph - which has to be a good thing.
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either :( ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question ;) are you becoming a troll ?
Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.
As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?
i cant call you as you hide behind a fake name ;)
So your name is really Window Washers ::) ::) ::)
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How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?
I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either :( ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question ;) are you becoming a troll ?
Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.
As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?
i cant call you as you hide behind a fake name ;)
So your name is really Window Washers ::) ::) ::)
yep its my business name, your welcome to check out what we do ;D
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I don't need to know if ratchet straps are safe or not, just if it is a legal way to carry water
so if it was legal yet dangerous this would not bother you ?
every thing we do in life is dangerous, but as long as we abide within the law at least we can't be prosecuted, of course if I found out it was dangerous I would limit the probability of it happening, but others have already asked the question, so I specifically want to know if it is legal or not, the safety aspect will be answered anyway
If you're only worried about legal responsibility and you're not employing someone then why not just bung an IBC loose in the back?
You'll only really risk prosecution if you get killed, so it won't matter.
because that would be pure stupidity and illegal for not securing your load
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There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety :)
The name MIRA (Motor Industry Research Association) sounds pretty immpressive. Do they actually do any 'research', if so have they done any on fluid tanks in vans and is it published anywhere?
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Might be worth asking MIRA if a half-full tank will indeed "slosh". My guess is that it wouldn't; I think accidents are too quick, e.g. 0.07 seconds (for evidence, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMl-WQ5XkMI from impact to stop = 0.07 seconds or so).
My intuition would say that in 0.07 seconds, there will be minimal sloshing during the deceleration phase. I'd suspect the weight of water in the tank will behave like the same mass of bricks and just hurtle straight forward. I may well be wrong, but could the guys at MIRA confirm or deny that?
Also, if a load strap is rated at 5T, does that mean you can hook a 5T weight straight onto it and it'll support it, or does it mean that if you gradually increase the weight to 5T it'll support it? Have they done crash tests on loads of any kind supported by ratchet straps? What were the results?
What impulse can a typical bulkhead withstand?
Do they have data on the distribution of accident speeds on UK roads (are 60mph accidents 1% or 50% of accidents)?
Vin
No probs Vin. Alex, thanks for the info ( way ahead of my email to ya lol :) we can discuss more )
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Something else that's occurred to me: if you employ and your employee falls off your ladder due to say a damaged rung
or poor training or nobody footing the ladder, we all know that it's highly likely the employer is going to get sued at least and maybe prosecuted.
Now, if you send your employee out in a van with no bulkhead and a 1000l ibc tank secured with battons fibreglassed to the floor or whatever and the load shifts .............. what happens then, are you as an employer still liable?
Following on from this I can see in the future that systems will surely have to be approved and crash tested to get insurance and employee cover? I don't suppose builders have a problem though?
What do you think?
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Something else that's occurred to me: if you employ and your employee falls off your ladder due to say a damaged rung
or poor training or nobody footing the ladder, we all know that it's highly likely the employer is going to get sued at least and maybe prosecuted.
Now, if you send your employee out in a van with no bulkhead and a 1000l ibc tank secured with battons fibreglassed to the floor or whatever and the load shifts .............. what happens then, are you as an employer still liable?
Following on from this I can see in the future that systems will surely have to be approved and crash tested to get insurance and employee cover? I don't suppose builders have a problem though?
What do you think?
I think laws work on given examples in terms of previous successful cases. If an employee has a crash with a non crash tested system or poorly fitted system and is injured, given that safer means of securing said systems are available on the market the employer will suffer a degree of liability ( BTW Im no lawyer )
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If an employee has a crash with a non crash tested system or poorly fitted system and is injured, given that safer means of securing said systems are available on the market the employer will suffer a degree of liability ( BTW Im no lawyer )
None of the current road, employer and equipment legislation that could be applied to the
restraint of cargo on vehicles makes any specific provision concerning the safe restraint of
cargo under accident conditions
Advice is..........
Practical limitations exist in adequately restraining cargo with a single mass greater than
approximately 50kg. If cargo with a single mass greater than 50kg needs to be carried in a
vehicle then a purpose designed engineered solution will be needed to adequately restrain this
mass of cargo under R17 crash loading conditions. This would include the carrying of large
water tanks or generators positioned on or in vehicles.
Thats from a report by TRL for the FTA
Source..............
http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/loading_of_vehicles/technical_reference_on_cargo_restraint.pdf
Whether or not the current American seatbelt regulation (AKA Ionics crash test FMVSS-208 accreditation) fits the bill for 'R17 crash loading conditions' i've no idea. I'm no lawyer either but i couldn't see an employer having any liability for a 50 mph crash if something has only been tested at 30 mph even though there is no requirement to do so?
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Reading between the lines it seems to me that MIRA accept that any crash at speeds in excess of 30mph will result in total destruction of the vehicle and non-preventable injury/death of persons in the path of the dislodged cargo.
They therefore seem to be concentrating on minimising the effect of crashes up to 30mph which presumably they regard as survivable.
In other words, don't worry about crashing at over 30mph, you're probably going to be dead.
Up to 30mph if your tank etc is secure, you might survive. BUT IT STILL BOILS DOWN TO "HOW WELL IS YOUR TANK SECURED TO THE CHASSIS?"
If the tank and chassis are in effect one solid unit, then the tank is safe but only up to the point where the chassis fails. So in reality the limiting factor is the quality and strength of the chassis.
We realised this a long time ago and so designed our fixings using angle steel across the vehicle cargo bed and secured with 12mm HT bolts passing down each side of the 'fore and aft' main chassis members with a short length of angle steel across the underside of the member to form a "U" bolt around the chassis. With the upright web of the angle steel drilled to accept the claws of as many 5ton ratchet straps as we can fit in, we believe this to achieve the 'one solid unit' as above and therefore as safe as it is possible to be.
Having read Alex's report that the main movement of the tank is likely to be horizontally forward, we now also incorporate a further angle steel braced across the front of the cargo space and bolted to the vertical members forming the support around the side and roof of the driver's cab. This steel is positioned so that it bears against the front of the tank approximately half way up.
As the materials we use are far thicker and stronger than any of the chassis, then the only way this can fail is when the limit of the chassis is exceeded and the vehicle is destroyed.
Obviously we haven't had this crash tested but we have complete confidence in it within the limits of the strength of the vehicle itself.
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What bothers me with strapping (and this could be one for Mira) is that the angles for strapping loads are all wrong, the straps are always ninety degrees to fit around the tank. On any information I've managed to find, all strapped loads should be strapped with much lower angles. Maybe Mira could crash test with straps? Give it to some apprentices with a few scrap Transits to test out and keep the costs down
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I would agree that the straps could be a weak point in our system. With our fixing arrangement it wouldn't be too difficult to engineer steel fixings over the tank and bolted to the angle steel.
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Maybe Mira could crash test with straps? Give it to some apprentices with a few scrap Transits to test out and keep the costs down
They're a commercial profit making establishment. They'll test for whoever pays them. I wouldn;t hold your breath waiting for them to test things for the general well being and saftey of us all as a matter of course. I'm suprised Wydale have never delved into this as its mostly their tanks that get used for mobile use.