Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lee GLS on March 16, 2012, 03:06:24 pm
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If veolia waters ban on their domestic customers waking pure water doesn't change, what will you do?
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Hi Lee, any chance of a few more details? regards Steve
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Read through these
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=149154.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=149235.0
Basically veolia are the only water company to actually impose a ban on making deionised water if you are one of their domestic customers.
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I'm not a Veolia customer.. But if I was I would just change to a business tariff.
Andy
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It wouldn't make any difference. The current position is we cannot use their water to clean domestic windows using WFP, you can clean commercial but not domestic.
They feel it is perfectly acceptable to clean using traditional tools on poles if we decide not to use ladders.
Quite an interesting situation, not been in this position before, but enjoying the challenge.
In answer to the question I would:
A: Source water outside the area (with a clear trail as proof)
B: Use ladders
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As far as I am aware business tariff is same as domestic. I am under Veolia water and have static RO set-up in garage. I informed them about 4 years ago of this so i could claim a sewerage rebate for water not returned to drain, although I claim the rebate from Anglian Water who are responsible for sewerage.
Until they personally inform me otherwise I plan to continue using my RO. I am on meter so I already pay for all the water I use.
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On the veolia website under restrictions on page 11 where it says we cannot use WFP, it has this under the exceptions
A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety. This includes:
a) removing or minimising any risk to human or animal health or safety; and
b) preventing or controlling the spread of causative agents of disease
So can we use this as a way of carrying on using WFP with regards to health and safety?
That it the exception that ionics used to when talking to the water companies in 2006 and they agreeded.
K
It should be noted, however, that this distinction is now at the water-companies' discretion. Before the 2010 order, water companies did not have the power to restrict businesses during hose-pipe bans no matter what type of work they performed. Now the situation is different. The 2010 order gives water companies the power to restrict the USE of water drawn from their supply, not the user.
In theory this means that water companies could, if they chose to, restrict window cleaning of domestic houses even by window cleaning businesses, though they would not be able to restrict window cleaning on commercial buildings.This could lead to a ridiculous situation whereby a domestic window cleaner would be restricted, but a commercial window cleaner would not.
It's encouraging that so far, it appears that water companies are not restricting window cleaning businesses at all in the new hose-pipe bans for 2012, but it is important to note that they have the power to do so.
Thankfully, there is an even more powerful argument in favour of the window cleaner.
A Special Dispensation for Health & Safety
The issue of window cleaning with waterfed poles during a drought first came to light in 2006 when water shortages were experienced throughout much of Southern England. In accordance with legal procedure, the water companies involved held public hearings to consider what impact any restrictions would have for the public and businesses. Craig Mawlam, chairman of Ionic Systems and founder of the British Window Cleaning Academy spoke in behalf of the window cleaning industry.
Craig argued that window cleaners should not be expected to assume the life-threatening risks associated with work at height simply to save a relatively small amount of water, and should be granted a dispensation on the grounds of Health & Safety. The fact that other dispensations existed, for example to allow ponds and fountains to be filled to protect fish and other animals served to illustrate that the preservation of life is obviously more important than a relatively small water saving. Of course, human life is just as (if not more) worthy of protection as that of animals.
This argument was accepted by both water companies and the then Secretary of State who later approved the water companies' plans for managing the drought that year.
But more importantly, it appears that this consideration was written into law in the 2010 order.
Section 12(2) of The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 specifically states:
"Cleaning walls, or windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe
12.—
(1) The category of use in section 76(2)(i) of the Act applies only to the cleaning of the external walls or windows of domestic premises.
(2) Using a hosepipe to clean the walls or windows of domestic premises for health or safety reasons is not to be treated as falling within the category of use in that section."
The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010; Sec 12(2)
As was argued by Craig Mawlam, window cleaners who use waterfed poles do so for health & safety reasons. The alternative to using waterfed poles would be to work at height (using either ladders, scaffold towers or hydraulic platforms etc). But this would cause a problem, as the Work at Height Regulations 2005 require that work at height be avoided if there is a reasonably practical alternative.
So, section 12(2) of the new order appears to indicate that hosepipe ban restrictions won't apply in cases where health and safety would be adversely affected.
This provision should allow window cleaners to continue to use the safest method available to them - waterfed poles - during a hose-pipe ban.
As these new laws are so new, the exact legal interpretation has yet to be established, but it would certainly seem that window cleaners using waterfed poles have a very strong case.
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Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.
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Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.
It should be noted, however, that this distinction is now at the water-companies' discretion. Before the 2010 order, water companies did not have the power to restrict businesses during hose-pipe bans no matter what type of work they performed. Now the situation is different. The 2010 order gives water companies the power to restrict the USE of water drawn from their supply, not the user.
In theory this means that water companies could, if they chose to, restrict window cleaning of domestic houses even by window cleaning businesses, though they would not be able to restrict window cleaning on commercial buildings.This could lead to a ridiculous situation whereby a domestic window cleaner would be restricted, but a commercial window cleaner would not.
It's encouraging that so far, it appears that water companies are not restricting window cleaning businesses at all in the new hose-pipe bans for 2012, but it is important to note that they have the power to do so.
Thankfully, there is an even more powerful argument in favour of the window cleaner.
A Special Dispensation for Health & Safety
The issue of window cleaning with waterfed poles during a drought first came to light in 2006 when water shortages were experienced throughout much of Southern England. In accordance with legal procedure, the water companies involved held public hearings to consider what impact any restrictions would have for the public and businesses. Craig Mawlam, chairman of Ionic Systems and founder of the British Window Cleaning Academy spoke in behalf of the window cleaning industry.
Craig argued that window cleaners should not be expected to assume the life-threatening risks associated with work at height simply to save a relatively small amount of water, and should be granted a dispensation on the grounds of Health & Safety. The fact that other dispensations existed, for example to allow ponds and fountains to be filled to protect fish and other animals served to illustrate that the preservation of life is obviously more important than a relatively small water saving. Of course, human life is just as (if not more) worthy of protection as that of animals.
This argument was accepted by both water companies and the then Secretary of State who later approved the water companies' plans for managing the drought that year.
But more importantly, it appears that this consideration was written into law in the 2010 order.
Section 12(2) of The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 specifically states:
"Cleaning walls, or windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe
12.—
(1) The category of use in section 76(2)(i) of the Act applies only to the cleaning of the external walls or windows of domestic premises.
(2) Using a hosepipe to clean the walls or windows of domestic premises for health or safety reasons is not to be treated as falling within the category of use in that section."
The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010; Sec 12(2)
As was argued by Craig Mawlam, window cleaners who use waterfed poles do so for health & safety reasons. The alternative to using waterfed poles would be to work at height (using either ladders, scaffold towers or hydraulic platforms etc). But this would cause a problem, as the Work at Height Regulations 2005 require that work at height be avoided if there is a reasonably practical alternative.
So, section 12(2) of the new order appears to indicate that hosepipe ban restrictions won't apply in cases where health and safety would be adversely affected.
This provision should allow window cleaners to continue to use the safest method available to them - waterfed poles - during a hose-pipe ban.
As these new laws are so new, the exact legal interpretation has yet to be established, but it would certainly seem that window cleaners using waterfed poles have a very strong case.
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simple thing to do is this... All you say is that you have purchased the water from a source outside their area simples :)
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Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.
How's that ;D
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From this post I will not make friends but frankly dont give a ~~~~.
Reading these posts its obvious that 'Window cleaners' are missing Veolia's point. Its no good just putting a set of 'blinkers on' and ignoring it. Surely this subject should be at the top of all the posts not which ficking pump works best!
Their point is ...windows dont need to be cleaned FULL STOP so HS gets kicked into touch. They are taking the same approach with pressure washing, WE CANT PRESSURE WASH DOMESTICS FULL STOP- in their eyes it doesnt need to be done - However this will obviously have a massive impact on companies providing these services - US.
What we all need to do is get off our arses complain to everyone Veolia, local papers local MPs make everyone aware of what they are intending to do. What gives them the right to shut companies down, where as other water companies ie Anglian are allowing us to continue.
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The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!
I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.
Have you spoken to veolia today?
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Great post Matt, very useful and would be worth putting to the test, for anyone brave enough.
In this case Mike's view appears to be correct, Veolia will take action against anyone using a hosepipe on domestic premises, they are not interested how many livelihoods it may affect.
The head of Veolia legal suggested using trad tools on poles if ladders cannot be used, to which I have replied.
Even OFWAT have a statement which is in line with Thames, Anglian & Southern, this will be my next call on Monday to see if they have the power to change Veolia's mind.
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windows will have to go dirty if not done traditional. they dont care about window cleaners like they didnt care about the car industry. coal miners, public sector workers. hospital workers . we aren't that important. health and safety is a poor arguement. if wfp is gonna be restricted then the windows will go dirty or trad. i wouldn't bank on the water boards letting you carry on if we have a hot summer. prepare for a change
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Personally i dont give two S hits about any water restrictions
It wont stop me earning 1pence than i did last december
They cant prove where my water came from.
I pay my water rates, year on year, if they want to p their profits up, thats up to them.
They should have invested, not forced water restrictions, i have no sympathy for them.
In short F 'em
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Personally i dont give two S hits about any water restrictions
It wont stop me earning 1pence than i did last december
They cant prove where my water came from.
I pay my water rates, year on year, if they want to p their profits up, thats up to them.
They should have invested, not forced water restrictions, i have no sympathy for them.
In short F 'em
Word!
The world is gonna end before Christmas anyway so I'll live for today.
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The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!
I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.
Have you spoken to veolia today?
Lee, I do realise it only seems to be a small minority affected and others just cant seem to grasp the true reality. Really feel for you as from your previous posts you have ploughed alot recently into your company, 100% respect, no fault of your own results may be ltd due to unfortunate timing.
The majority of our work is Pressure washing, we also cover Anglian 'area' which is a god send at present.. unless they adopt Veolia's ideas. We are introducing recycling and will push it as far as possible in all 'directions' customers media etc.
I have spoken to V again today they are currently looking at the situation with their legal team, in the mean time also sending in an appeal thro their hydrant division.
Whatever the results they wont stop us working - unless the drought escalates. As for this forum I now realise it is a huge waste of time, as I have been told numerous times by a few guys
Best Mike
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Cheers mike, let us know what the response from veolia is, even if they don't change their mind.
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The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!
I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.
Have you spoken to veolia today?
Have you considered getting together and contacting your local MP?
Also the local media might be interested in this story which could put the water company in a negative light as they are not acknowleging Health & Safety implications.
Don't just talk about it......DO SOMETHING!
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As for this forum I now realise it is a huge waste of time, as I have been told numerous times by a few guys
A thread titled "Veolia water customers" is probably not being read by many people.
Can I ask what you are expecting of "the forum"?
Vin
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What happens if you get caught using WFP when you shouldn't be in the affected area?
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plead ignorance, ;D im only a fik winda cleana
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plead ignorance, ;D im only a fik winda cleana
That shouldn't be too hard.
But I'm still interested in the Thames Water aspect of all this. Veola are not the water producer round here although thats who we pay our bills to. Thames water produce the water and process the waste.
Now it seems to me that Veola are the ones that are getting all ar5ey but are they actually in the driving seat or are Thames Water? I would much rather believe Thames Water. Maybe Veola are all pi55 and wind?
There certainly seems to be somebody in Veola's legal dept with a bad attitude. Probably just one self important to55er with an ego.
But one jobsworth should be easy to put in his place. If not we will have to stop work which is a human rights issue (believe it or not!). Its no good waiting for somebody else to do it and moaning. Kick up as much dust as you can now. Get your MP to write to them, thats always a good one.
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Vince,
You have till 21st March to put any representations forward to Thames Water, I have emailed mine across and will have to wait to see what the out-come is.
Veolia had a meeting last week, as they told me all the water companies down here are not singing from the same song sheet, so something needs to be sorted out.
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What happens if you get caught using WFP when you shouldn't be in the affected area?
Probably a warning first off, but your card will be marked after that
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Probably a warning first off, but your card will be marked after that
And then what if you do it again? A fine?
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Probably a warning first off, but your card will be marked after that
And then what if you do it again? A fine?
I would have thought so but if you take it to the extreme, they have the right to seize your gear and even your van. I can't imagine it would come to that though. That sort of measure is usually reserved for people dumping chemicals in rivers.
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Any new news lads????
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if it happens we should all get together like the lorry drivers a few years ago and do a rolling blockade protest 100's of signwritten(or not) wfp vans! ;)
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I cant understand why they let car valeters use water (which i used 2 be) and not us??? WHATS the difference? In FACT u would use a LOT MORE water valeting!! I think that Veolia, who took over from 3 valleys water, do not really understand, what it is that we do? They must think were getting a garden hose and lashing down all the house windows??? In actual fact we are carefull with the water because (at a cost) we either make it, or buy it!! >:(
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f*** me guys this is very serious they must be on another planet what are you gona do?
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If this happens in my area. I will be on to my MP, like tick on a camels ass.Its my right to earn an income ,end of.
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if the water companies say theres a hosepipe ban,most custies cut down water usage using less water has, in previous years been enough ,without rationing or enforcement.
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I just read on Nats forum that someone phone veolia, and they were told they couldn't even clean windows in the veolia area with water sourced from a different area, and that the health and safety arguemeant was only relevant over one story. They are being real idiots about this. Luckily they relented on the issue of bringing in water from another area, but still standing firm on the WFP side of things.
Craig mawlam has now written to veolia, wether it will be of any use or not
http://www.bwca.co.uk/bwca_letter_to_veolia_water_16_mar_2012.pdf
Another thing veolia said was, "if we can stop farmer watering their crops that feed the nation, we can stop a few window cleaners"
These are the sort if people we are dealing with.
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Get your MP on it if you're affected.
Go to: http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/ and find their name.
Then PHONE THEM. MPs take much more notice of phone calls than letters or emails. Get an appointment to see them at their surgery.
Explain the position. Point out the fact that you are being prevented from working. Get them on your case.
MPs get a bad press but if you present yourself professionally and honestly, they can work wonders.
Vin
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but still standing firm on the WFP side of things. ??
So if we can source water outside veolia, we can wfp? and do u know what there borders are lee, as there map is sh**e. cheers m
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It also says on Veolia website that water drawn from source before 5th April can be used- how do the prove that?
It would seem the biggest problem is filling your van, once it's in there the H&S argument would come into play for work?
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but still standing firm on the WFP side of things. ??
So if we can source water outside veolia, we can wfp? and do u know what there borders are lee, as there map is sh**e. cheers m
Best thing is to find somewhere you think you can get it from and type the postcode in on the veolia website and it will tell you if it falls under their area
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Sorry mate, are u saying if we get around the water source, we can wfp?? What about having hoses trailing off the van? thanks m
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You can get water from an area that veolia doent supply, or a commercial supplier of pure water. You can then clean in the veolia area from your van with WFP
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Good news
Update from Veolia Water to be published this Thursday.
Any business in existence prior to March 15th 2012 whose sole income depends on the cleaning of domestic windows, walls, patios or private motor vehicles are exempt from the restriction until July 4th 2012 at which point it will be under review.
Hope this helps.
John
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its going to rain everyday in april and may and then they will say they have to much water
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Good news
Update from Veolia Water to be published this Thursday.
Any business in existence prior to March 15th 2012 whose sole income depends on the cleaning of domestic windows, walls, patios or private motor vehicles are exempt from the restriction until July 4th 2012 at which point it will be under review.
Hope this helps.
John
I wonder what has caused them to do that?
Did any of you in the Veolia area get your local MP involved?
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Yes I did, I also requested the help of the FSB (Federation of Smalll Business), FWC etc, I think Craig Mowlams letter from the BWCA was very good. I can only assume the change of heart was in response to information received and formal requests for exemption.
Had they not relented I would have seriously considered challenging them in court.
Anyway it's good news for now, but not over yet.
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Good man. ;)
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And East Surrey & Sutton water gave us the all clear today also
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I thought there were posts earlier saying we was all ok as we run a bussiness.
So in short we are all stuffed if a hosepipe ban comes into play in your area.
Well surely they cant stop you earning a living.
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Hose-pipe ban is coming into play in the South East 5th April make no mistake there, you did need to put your case across to add weight to the original restrictions that most of the SE water companies had on their websites. A few of us on here did just that.
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It's a little complicated, the answer is yes & yes. Each company is legally entitled to apply the act (regulations) as they see fit however they do try and show a united front. The issue we encountered with Veolia is that they decided to take a completely different stance to the five other companies and restrict any company using a hosepipe on domestic premises. They even went as far as to say the Health and Safety exemption could only apply to cause not use.
I think the act does not intend to restrict businesses working on domestic premises but it is not clear hence the problems we have encountered.
It would be good if the act could be changed to clarify this point otherwise we may have to go through this each time, god forbid.
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John
And that is why you had to put your representations forward by last week to get your case across.
Veolia took a hard line, and which from what you are saying common sense has prevailed and they have changed their stance.
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Thats extremely good work there. Well done everybody. Award yourself a pat on the back.
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Very good news. Thanks for the update John.
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Here is the official publication which as you can see is not such good news.
Published today in two national papers and the Veolia Water website:
We are window cleaning business, are we affected?
Yes. However if your business was in existence before 15 March 2012 and your income is solely dependent on this activity, we will make an exception until 23:59 on 4 July 2012. During this time we are requesting that businesses ensure that at the end of the time period they can operate under the restrictions.
To summarise, they have given us a three month reprieve after which they will restrict the use of WFP, Pressure Washers etc. on domestic properties by service providers effectively destroying the livelihoods of many small businesses.
This would appear to be in contradiction to their peers at Anglian, Southern, South East & Thames Water.
I will continue to fight our cause with the assistance of the FWC, BWCA, FSB and our local MP.
I will keep you posted.
John
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John,
I'm the same s you, but fighting the pressure washing side, not great news.
I haven't heard anything personally other then East Surrey & Sutton water.
Veiola seem to have taken the hard line here which is not good at the end of the day.
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if it happens we should all get together like the lorry drivers a few years ago and do a rolling blockade protest 100's of signwritten(or not) wfp vans! ;)
I'm up for a day off to show the barstewards and blockade their workplace along with other vans - wherever it may be. I'm not in their area either. They need to be shown the extent of feeling about this or other areas may try it on too.
EDIT: I've just read further down the thread about a temporary reprieve. A dry Summer and we will be back on this in July.
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Thank you very much for a sterling effort John
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For anyone that is interested Thames Water have now updated their web-site with the new exemptions which is fairly good news, it does give us (pressure washing) the all clear to carry-on.
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hi
just had letter from Veolia anyone who was in Business before the 14 March 2012 can carry on using wfp for another 3 months.
it should be on they website by now.