Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Pj on March 12, 2012, 08:12:43 am
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Hosepipe ban for 20 million in next 2-4 weeks. Even though this won't restrict us legally, residential customers will be feeling concientious about water conservation.
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Just tell them you wont rinse then ;)
Seriously just seen that too, you're right though it wont restrict us legally just yet and a drought order ought not either, but it is a situation that cannot be ignored. They'll have trouble enforcing restrictions though, peoples livelihoods, mortgages and food on the table is dependant on being able to work. Could be interesting situation as the summer progresses.
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Zzzzzzzzzz just keep cleaning if a customer complains then skip em till ban ends ... Simples
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I was walking round a reservoir yesterday and it was the fullest I've seen it in 10 years. I never thought I'd feel grateful for all the rain we get in Cornwall :-\
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The media have done a cracking job the last couple of months spouting out the doom and gloom.
Although their information has been very distorted.
For example in one water region one of the resevoirs is 60% capacity however in another part of the region another resevoir is 90% capacity.
From listening to the media they would have us believe its like the sahara. >:(
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Zzzzzzzzzz just keep cleaning if a customer complains then skip em till ban ends ... Simples
Ok Captain Schettino, lets all get back to work now.
This year could well be tough. It isn't just the media, its the way things are.
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If anyone does complain about water usage just explain that the water used is less than a shower and it recycles back into the system....
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YAAAWWWWWNNN :-\
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Seriously... This has no effect whatsoever on windys
"Hosepipe Ban" to be replaced by "Discretionary Use Ban"
At present, water companies can, at their discretion, impose 'hosepipe bans' in an effort to reduce water consumption by the public. These hosepipe bans are limited in their scope by section 76 of The Water Industry Act 1991.
Put simply, by imposing a hosepipe ban water companies can restrict certain uses of water drawn from their supply network, including washing of private cars, the watering of private gardens etc. Hosepipe bans do not have any impact on window cleaning by method, including the domestic sector. This means, for example, that during a hosepipe ban a householder would not be allowed to wash their car using a hosepipe, but would be allowed to wash their windows
with a hosepipe.
"
From http://www.bwca.co.uk/news.html
Stop worrying about nothing...
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if we dont have a wet spring by summer i predict not just hosepipe bans but
drought orders in certain areas.
im lucky i come under severn trent and they have promised no hose pipe bans etc
my water is piped from wales.
i was out on a warwickshire river yesterday fishing and i dont remember the last time
i saw river levels so low this time of year,the longer the lack of rain carries on the more
an issue this will become and more it will be highlighted in the media this will definately
affect the mindset of the average customer whatever the legality of the situation is
it definately could cause problems
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More info..
The only restriction so far is that water-fed poles must not be
directly connected to the mains water supply. For example,
a window cleaner would not be permitted to connect their
water-fed pole to a customer’s outdoor tap. Water-Fed
Poles fed from a mobile tank, such as a van or trailer
system, are still be permitted.
This will come as a relief to a great many window cleaners
who have invested in water-fed systems in order to comply
with the 2005 Work at Height Regulations.
If your customers get arsey make a leaflet outlining the law and give them it. If you are conforming to the law (just as they are) they should have no reason to say anything more. If they still get weird about it just move on - what are you going to do? pi$$ on a rag and damp up the glass? Besides how many custys do you think are actually going to cancel after they know for a fact you are conforming to law? 1/100? probably not the best custy anyway...
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if the majority cared about that so called law nobody would be employing
ladder jockeys and they are still the majority when it comes to window cleaning ;D
i dont think anyone should panic...but like i said before if the lack of rain
continues in certain areas these regulations could change rapidly,summer is still
months away i for one will def keep one eye on this situation and if things do
go from bad to worse i will simply adapt to suit :)
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It might be ok to wash from the vans tank
But will it be illegal to fill van via a hose pipe from the mains??
found this online
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2006/e06061.htm
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Very good post Sean, only glad that i am the North East, with Kielder reservoir,It is the largest artificial lake in the United Kingdom by capacity,and holds 200 million litres, was built to supply the heavy industry in the North East, but sadly most of the industry has now gone.
idealrob
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But who uses customers' water to fill their wfp tanks? isn't it always manu'd ro, di water that you bring along?
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Thames Water announced ban in a month, includes that you can't clean your windows.
Oooerr! What they gonna do if next door calls a big van with a splishy splashy broomstick who goes round soaking everything? And they can't get their own bucket out?
Gonna raise a few questions innit
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Thames Water announced ban in a month, includes that you can't clean your windows.
Oooerr! What they gonna do if next door calls a big van with a splishy splashy broomstick who goes round soaking everything? And they can't get their own bucket out?
Gonna raise a few questions innit
Ideal time to see if neighbour wants theirs doing ;)
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Looked at Anglian Water's website, they have produced a Drought Pack
http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/_assets/media/Drought_Pack_Ruthamford.doc.pdf
It clearly states (pages 4 & 5), that at present the ban only applies to DOMESTIC users - not businesses !
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Looked at Anglian Water's website, they have produced a Drought Pack
http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/_assets/media/Drought_Pack_Ruthamford.doc.pdf
It clearly states (pages 4 & 5), that at present the ban only applies to DOMESTIC users - not businesses !
Thats interesting.
It says you can't water your garden with a hose.
So, when it comes to waste water, do we make sure we let it run down the drain? Because we can't water the garden with it! Hmmm!
Who's going to phone the Water Authority for me? :o
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Rehearse after me :-
I use water collected from my roofs. (during last winter of course)
The water I carry came from Wales/Devon or Cornwall/Cumbria/Scotland* - I drive there every weekend and buy my water there/fill up from a friend.
*whichever is closest
:) ;)
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Just heard on the radio an hour ago Anglian water (thats my area) have just ordered a hosepipe ban, not worried yet its drought orders that might prove difficult.
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does this effect us ??
Hosepipe bans are to be issued in south-east England and East Anglia from April 5 with fears drought could spread as far north as East Yorkshire
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Yes any wc thats not registered as being commercial with their water company will be charged accordingly or fined £1,000!!!
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Yes any wc thats not registered as being commercial with their water company will be charged :D ;Daccordingly or fined £1,000!!!
Oh no I best sign off the dole then
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Yes any wc thats not registered as being commercial with their water company will be charged accordingly or fined £1,000!!!
I don't know if you are messing about but that's not possible for some. For instance,what about a situation where a few businesses are in work units and the landlord pays the water company. He might charge the businesses based on self-installed meters.
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do you have to register as a business with your water company
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I think you'll find it is cheaper to pay £1000 fine than to register as a business user. Business tariff is for monster users
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Yes any wc thats not registered as being commercial with their water company will be charged accordingly or fined £1,000!!!
That is rubbish, the water board don't charge you commercial rates from a private dwelling. All you need to do is let the water board know what you are doing and metered accordingly.. Hose pipe bans do not affect you if you are running a business. Your right about the fine, but i was told by a southern water board inspector the fine can be as much as £10,000 if you are none compliant. I have a sub meter fitted for none sewage use and this is deduced from the main meter and charged to my business. A hose pipe ban will still affect your home for instance washing your car and watering the garden.
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just trade and use a bucketfull last you
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Should be ok as long as hose is not connected to mains tap .Drought order might be differant best to check wording of hosepipe ban when its issued
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Looks like a bad drought here in south east and they are allready talking about restricting commercial customers.
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From the BWCA
The 2004-2006 drought in South East England served to focus attention on the outdated nature of the 1991 Drought Direction, which sets out the circumstances under which water companies may apply for a drought order, and also the restrictions that they are able to impose.
The consultation document sets out proposed changes to current legislation and aims to gather information from interested parties on the suitability of those changes.
The British Window Cleaning Academy is actively involved in this consultation, and recognizes that the proposed changes may have an impact on the way window cleaners work in drought conditions.
However, it must be emphasized that it is not yet clear how the proposed changes would (if at all) affect window cleaners, as the proposal document does not specifically discuss the cleaning of windows by tradesmen, but only generically (ie the cleaning of windows by the householder)
The definition of window cleaning "using sprinkler, hosepipe or similar apparatus" is also the subject of some dispute, especially as to whether this definition extends to the use of water-fed poles or not.
Pure Water - A Manufactured Product
The proposal document makes clear that any restrictions apply only to water that has not been "used". Although no definition of this term is given, some useful guidance is provided;
"Our proposals apply only to water supplied by water companies under their statutory supply duties. These supply duties are directly linked to quality criteria. The filling of a receptacle by hosepipe from the mains supply, with no intervening use, for a proscribed purpose would be a breach of any restrictions in force. However, once water supplied by a water company has been used then that water is no longer of a kind that was originally supplied"
Section 3.3.3.1 (italics ours)
According to this guidance, restrictions both present and future do not apply to water that is "no longer of a kind that was originally supplied" .It is obvious that once water has passed through the treatment processes which enable it to be used for window cleaning, it too is "no longer of a kind that was originally supplied"
Of course, in order to make use of water for window cleaning with a water-fed pole system, a number of processes are necessary to alter the quality of the water. In fact, the production of pure water for window cleaning is in itself a "use" and in many other industries, purified water is considered a manufactured product, with mains water being simply a raw material. Since water purification is not subject to any restriction, this would be an effective defence if one were needed.
"Hosepipe Ban" to be replaced by "Discretionary Use Ban"
At present, water companies can, at their discretion, impose 'hosepipe bans' in an effort to reduce water consumption by the public. These hosepipe bans are limited in their scope by section 76 of The Water Industry Act 1991.
Put simply, by imposing a hosepipe ban water companies can restrict certain uses of water drawn from their supply network, including washing of private cars, the watering of private gardens etc. Hosepipe bans do not have any impact on window cleaning by method, including the domestic sector. This means, for example, that during a hosepipe ban a householder would not be allowed to wash their car using a hosepipe, but would be allowed to wash their windows
with a hosepipe.
There are several proposed changes to this structure which involve the replacing the 'hosepipe ban' with a more consistent 'discretionary use ban'. Under the proposal this would be much broader in its scope and restrict a wider range of activities than the 'hosepipe ban'.
Section 4.1.4 (v) of the proposal document makes clear that under the new discretionary use ban that, just like the washing of private cars, within the domestic sector window cleaning using a hosepipe will be restricted. By limiting the discretionary use ban to the domestic sector (ie use by householders, not window cleaners) this change would have no impact on the way window cleaners work. This is because window cleaners, whatever type of properties they clean, operate in the commercial, and not the domestic sector.
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I will be fine i know how to trad and use a ladder ;D ;D ;D
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i would be intrested if anybody has spoken to anglian water about this. ive just got of the phone to them after asking about the hosepipe ban, told them i used a water fed system to work and iam on a domestic tariff. they didnt have clue after putting me on hold they came back and asked how much water i have in my bucket ??? ???
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Oh to be a trady. Get your trady skills going wfp boys.
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Oh to be a trady
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Business's will not be effected....
Those are the words that just came out of the Anglia news presenters mouth regarding hose pipe bans....Phew!!!
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Do you have to register as a business though?
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how will trad guys wash there scims as their washing machines will use a lot of water to wash them , then it takes even more water to clean the waste water produced by their washing scims, so they will prob use more water than a wfp operater
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i would be intrested if anybody has spoken to anglian water about this. ive just got of the phone to them after asking about the hosepipe ban, told them i used a water fed system to work and iam on a domestic tariff. they didnt have clue after putting me on hold they came back and asked how much water i have in my bucket ??? ???
I have gone through all this for weeks with southern water, a inspector needs to visit you.
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Do you have to register as a business though?
Hmmmmn I dont know ??? I feel an anonomous phone call coming on ;D
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Hose-pipe bans will not affect us as window cleaners, but the situation is likely to escalate into a 'Drought Order', then we may well be affected. Not necessarily, but if the situation is grave enough they can implement stage 4 even if stage 3 hasn't been incorporated (Stages 1 and 2 are (1) hosepipe ban, (2) exclusions whilst hose-pipe ban is in force).
Stage 4 is serious, when we are at this stage small cleaning companies that rely on water may be permitted to continue trading whilst WFP, however if the water-board wish to impose that part of the order they do not have to grant exclusions to those businesses (us) if they feel it would be innapropriate.
Read this http://www.oakleywindowcleaning.co.uk/drought.pdf page 11 onwards is where its at.
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its got to be worrying for people in hosepipe ban areas its only early
march we are barely out of winter months till summer .plenty of rain
between now and june would be extremely helpful
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Same here
Exemptions
using a hosepipe in a garden or for cleaning
walls or windows of domestic premises, paths
or patios, a private leisure boat or an artificial
outdoor surface, where such use is necessary
for health and safety reasons.
http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xbcr/corp/Drought_-_What_it_means_for_you.pdf
(http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xbcr/corp/Drought_-_What_it_means_for_you.pdf)
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how will trad guys wash there scims as their washing machines will use a lot of water to wash them , then it takes even more water to clean the waste water produced by their washing scims, so they will prob use more water than a wfp operater
Land. Cuckoo. Cloud
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This is my 7th year of window cleaning... EVERY year we get this, hosepipe bans, drought orders etc etc...
It will only ever effect us if the water companies turn peoples taps off and we all have to get drinking water from stand pipes in the street!
Andy
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Then it's time to dust off the ladders and get to the supermarket to pick the mineral water of your choice
to wash custies windows :'(
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Don't fancy trad but will do what needs to be done.
Sold my double A frame last year, serves me right :D
I will tell custies they have to pay a retainer to keep me even if i can't clean their windows during drought with w.f.p
You've just got to educate em :D
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how will trad guys wash there scims as their washing machines will use a lot of water to wash them , then it takes even more water to clean the waste water produced by their washing scims, so they will prob use more water than a wfp operater
Land. Cuckoo. Cloud
[/quot
Better stop washing our clothes to then lol
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I can trad. And enjoy the odd bit of it too. But after 2 years of wfp the thought of being back up the ladders and going slow does my head in.....seems painfully slow, and hard work!
Lets hope doesn't cause us too many probs here in the midlands, if need be as plan b will trad the downstairs first before resuming ladder work.
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Should be ok as long as hose is not connected to mains tap .Drought order might be differant best to check wording of hosepipe ban when its issued
where else would it be connected to ?
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I will never stop wfp and thats that! Il use rain water river water im not metered any custys complain i will say its all caught of my uncles warehouse! Simples ;D
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The hose pipe ban posts, there is loads of them ;D
seriously on other forums this is frowned upon and they are merged
not that I am bothered we have plenty water in Scotland
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Oi you stop lifting your Kilt! (willy waving ;D)
we could do with some of that looks like you get the last laugh. scots have tough winters for work
looks like us southerners are gonna be struggling in summmers to come?
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want me to post some down, purified water in litre bottles £10 :D
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Should be ok as long as hose is not connected to mains tap .Drought order might be differant best to check wording of hosepipe ban when its issued
where else would it be connected to ?
If you arent use a hose to connect to mains, then you are fine! technicalities and all that........
If you use plastic push fit connectors, for instance, to your RO, then its not classes as hose pipe. And once its gone thru the RO its an altered substance so not applicable to hose pipe bans..
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want me to post some down, purified water in litre bottles £10 :D
cheaper in Halfords :o ;D
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are they doing the ban?
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what the hell will happen when they ban the hose pipe ?? ::)
how will i top my van up ... ;D
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Your not connected to mains tap when you use back pack or out of van so no problem
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If it changes to a drought order things may be differant
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ah steve we will be all right mate ;) a hose pipe is defined as a flexible hose connected to the mains more than .75 meters long just get a short hose straight to the di and then run your hose from the DI as it is no longer drinking water once it passes through the DI ;D
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I read somewhere on CUI that there's going to be hosepipe ban.
;D ;D ;D
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I will never stop wfp and thats that! Il use rain water river water im not metered any custys complain i will say its all caught of my uncles warehouse! Simples ;D
no good if we dont get any rain ;D
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I thought I'd get in on the act. I don't like feeling left out.
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=149220.0
;D ;D ;D
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well i'm glad it's only hose pipes their banning , if they banned any other "pipes" i'd be screwed come the weekend ;D
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Who started all this anyway? ;D
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this ban sounds good maybe i should come down from scotland and canvass your jobs with my 650lts of 000tds water ;D ;D
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Just heard on the radio an hour ago Anglian water (thats my area) have just ordered a hosepipe ban, not worried yet its drought orders that might prove difficult.
hey DAN,Off topic but have you seen any of the town binwashers lately ? iv not seen any,not that big red Sherpa that was Always about ,or that white merc , altho iv seen loads of bin lorries this year .
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Looks like anytime soon I'll have to stop doing the 50 to 75 houses a day that I average all year round.
At the moment I'm earning about £2k to 3k a week so it'll mean cutting back on those few luxuries I allow myself.
Good job I'm signing on. Another plus is that I will still be able to use my disabled badge to sign on every 2 week.
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The disabled badge holders club is handy i use mind for doing a big asda ... ;D
doesn't every window cleaner sign on anyways?........ :o
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Rehearse after me :-
I use water collected from my roofs. (during last winter of course)
The water I carry came from Wales/Devon or Cornwall/Cumbria/Scotland* - I drive there every weekend and buy my water there/fill up from a friend.
*whichever is closest
:) ;)
I live in Devon, lucky me! :D
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nah mate floods are coming ;) better building arks I think
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it can flood all it likes in wales as long as they keep piping it to me
in birmingham :)
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Just heard on the radio an hour ago Anglian water (thats my area) have just ordered a hosepipe ban, not worried yet its drought orders that might prove difficult.
hey DAN,Off topic but have you seen any of the town binwashers lately ? iv not seen any,not that big red Sherpa that was Always about ,or that white merc , altho iv seen loads of bin lorries this year .
no not seen them, but i dont really see them much anyway..ships passing in the night probably
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i used to see them a lot on the estates, not seen them this year,i reck theyv quit. they were very busy in fact i used to be a tad jealous of them a few years ago ,running around with clipboards etc , when i first started up and i hadnt much work at the time .
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Use a hosepipe in a garden or for cleaning walls or windows of domestic premises, paths or patios, a private leisure boat or an artificial outdoor surface, where such use is necessary for health and safety reasons;
Use a hosepipe in the course of a business to clean a private motor vehicle, or for cleaning walls or windows of domestic premises, paths or patios or an artificial outdoor surface, where this is done as a service to customers
Taken from Anglian Waters Web Site "What am I still allowed to do"
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my god did a moderator merge them all ;D well done ;D
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dude on 10o'clock news just speciffically said window cleaners will not be effected by hose pipe bans..we all knew it but nice to hear it from the horses mouth ;)
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+1 Trad :o
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Are we expecting a drought then? ???
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I think a few will ignore the ban but they will be chancing a £1000 fine
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see what some of you p takers think of us scrubbers traders now some got there nosers up in air but what u going to do go back to trad you will have to start at 12 at night coss will feel to embrass turning over to wfp myself but wont be slagging me friends who are trads
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Anyone would think it's a foregone conclusion that it's never going to rain.
In the history of the UK, just how many stage 3 drought orders (or the equivalent) have there been?
I'm not saying it's impossible but the grounds of probability are it won't and anyway, if it's going to happen, it will, and if it won't, it won't. Endlessly chewing the chewed won't change a thing.
I'll just go back to cleaning those jobs that can be done trad. If you can't do that and you're worried, better start saving every penny now, think about what can be sold at boot markets and what luxuries can either be got rid of or canceled. Spend less on food, less on beer or fAgs, drive more carefully and save on petrol, don't buy any takeaways, or what ever. Most people can find ways to spend less but most don't want to or won't.
I was speaking to another local window cleaner about the drought and all that and he was worried but when I said about flogging his 3 year old car if needs be, he flatly refused. I've a van for work and a car, and if needs be, the car will be the first thing go.
Instead of worrying, £1 000 fines and all that junk rubbish 'what if' stuff, make some plans instead.
Rant over.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114131/Diktats-drought-police-Not-just-hosepipe-ban-ELEVEN-tough-restrictions-water-use.html
Just read this and if things stay the same it dont look good, its ok saying business wont be affected but the simple fact is most guys are on a domestic meter even if its for business, I think its time to start worrying...
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The Daily Mail..............
They specialise in junk, non provable lies, rubbish and above all, twisting the truth. They have years of experience in the fear factor. It sells newspapers.
Don't read what they write.
Same goes for all other mass junk 'celebrity above all else' garbage news papers.
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The ban will not include Hampshire, so I'm ok!!! ;D
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Looks like a bad drought here in south east and they are allready talking about restricting commercial customers.
really please provide proof on this ?
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dude on 10o'clock news just speciffically said window cleaners will not be effected by hose pipe bans..we all knew it but nice to hear it from the horses mouth ;)
Don't you call the lovely Susannah Reid a "horse"! ;D
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Rang up anglian water and they day businesses are ok and have nothing to worry about.they aren't allowed to stop people earning a living.aslong as your a legitimately tax registered business your ok.
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I will never stop wfp and thats that! Il use rain water river water im not metered any custys complain i will say its all caught of my uncles warehouse! Simples ;D
Still illegal, it makes no difference where the water comes from.
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its got to be worrying for people in hosepipe ban areas its only early
march we are barely out of winter months till summer .plenty of rain
between now and june would be extremely helpful
Part of the problem is that rain after mid March may not help the situation very much. Some areas have large reservoirs in proportion to the number of bore holes/aquifers in the relevant area. Many parts of the southeast don't have large reservoirs. Reservoirs can fill up pretty much any times of year - one drawback being that they may be more prone to evaporation in heat. Aquifers only recharge in Winter because the growing season means that roots etc. prevent the water sinking deep enough to recharge them. A reasonable planning strategy would be to have a decent balance on reservoir/aquifer numbers. However, companies that rely on profit and paying divis to shareholders tend not to invest in infrastructure. In recent years it has become increasingly obvious that privatisation of water was total madness. It is the one thing that life depends upon almost on a day to day basis and really needs to be in government hands with large investments in infrastructure. Strangling such investment is a false economy because in a very bad drought, businesses would be seriously affected which reduces income to the exchequer in any case. If prevented from working, I estimate that my turnover would drop by 40% - perhaps as much as 50% even because since switching to WFP, I have been happier to take on work that can't easily be accessed by ladder. It's not just about a few window cleaners though.
Still, ultimately, if it's a choice between being unable to keep clean and earn money compared to having drinking water then obviously we all have to stink and go bankrupt. Such choices could have been prevented by better planning. We had warnings 5-6 years ago. The only changes I'm aware of have been more draconian measures to restrict supply - though there may have been infrastructure upgrades of which I'm unaware.
On a more positive note, at least if we go on the streets to protest they won't be using water cannon on us :)
I seem to recall that idiot Cameron extolling the virtues of becoming a window cleaner.
Anyone know how to do those online petitions. I would like one about bringing water back into public ownership. They can bail out banks but can't ensure enough water to keep the economy moving.
Winkers the lot of them.
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There is only one thing for it.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7x9obbxQV0
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I will never stop wfp and thats that! Il use rain water river water im not metered any custys complain i will say its all caught of my uncles warehouse! Simples ;D
I thought you needed an abstraction license to take water from a river?
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il be cleaning to the death!!!! ;D
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I will never stop wfp and thats that! Il use rain water river water im not metered any custys complain i will say its all caught of my uncles warehouse! Simples ;D
Still illegal, it makes no difference where the water comes from.
Unless they changed it* in recent years, the roof water is OK and the river water isn't.
*This may well have happened with the recent change in the regs.
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Rainwater harvesting time - if there is any!
Probably see that restricted as well.
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IM WITH SEVERN TRENT ;D not heard anything like this hear
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i spoke to severn trent today and they say there will be NO hose ban this year for severn trent areas.
and even if there was it would not effect water fed pole window cleaners.
just goes to show the media jumping on it again fear mongering spreading all there bull pooe .
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Can we keep all these drout posts in one place?
I don't know what the flap is about anyway; this isn't the first time this has happened; and window cleaning remained unaffected the last time. In fact, we're probably tiny water consumers compared to many other businesses.
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This come up on my facebook, some good info
http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/news.html
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For the love of mike!
Look; what's going on is that water companies are acting now to deal with a problem that may otherwise come to a head later in the summer. All credit to them for doing so. By stopping the use of hosepipes for, for example, watering lawns now, they are working to ensure that there will be no need for more draconian measures later.
What you're getting from the media is this week's bunch of media hysteria. They'll have moved onto something new next week. Just ignore it and the headlines truly will go away. However, the potential problem may not, so you need to make sensible plans on how to deal with it.
By the way, here's my top tip for a happy life. Stop reading the daily papers and watching the daily news. Get a weekly paper or journal instead, if you must. They tend not to have space for hysterical stories so you get a more balanced and reasoned view. I stopped reading dailies several years ago and I've never been happier.
Vin
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Just got this off veolia water website regarding the hose pipe ban, it's at the bottom of page 11
https://central.veoliawater.co.uk/docs/drought-restrictions-explained(1).pdf
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of ‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this de- ionised water, this activity is restricted.
What do you make of that?
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Just got this off veolia water website regarding the hose pipe ban, it's at the bottom of page 11
https://central.veoliawater.co.uk/docs/drought-restrictions-explained(1).pdf
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of ‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this de- ionised water, this activity is restricted.
What do you make of that?
Deionised water is only tap water thats been through a series of filters. Its still tap water in their eyes. The fact that it went through a couple of processes on the way to your van doesn't change anything
The fact that you should not be commercially processing water in your home if you on a domestic tarriff creates another area of risk which they are sure to pick up on if they question you. You can't win, they get you both ways. I can't remember offhand what the fine is
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I think the fine is £1000.
Would that be tax deductable? ;D
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For the love of mike!
Look; what's going on is that water companies are acting now to deal with a problem that may otherwise come to a head later in the summer. All credit to them for doing so. By stopping the use of hosepipes for, for example, watering lawns now, they are working to ensure that there will be no need for more draconian measures later.
What you're getting from the media is this week's bunch of media hysteria. They'll have moved onto something new next week. Just ignore it and the headlines truly will go away. However, the potential problem may not, so you need to make sensible plans on how to deal with it.
By the way, here's my top tip for a happy life. Stop reading the daily papers and watching the daily news. Get a weekly paper or journal instead, if you must. They tend not to have space for hysterical stories so you get a more balanced and reasoned view. I stopped reading dailies several years ago and I've never been happier.
Vin
I quite agree about newspaper reading. Although I take a daily sometimes, I tend to keep to the less sensationalist papers such as "i" - IMO the best daily out there for facts rather than opinions.
An interesting link that you posted. I do remember those drought hearings a few years ago. The first two were classics. I imagine that the water companies thought they were up against, amongst others, a load of "thick as doodoo" window cleaners. Craig Mawlam, and others, wiped the floor with them. He led them down a number of tempting alleys and when they got sucked in, he made them look pretty stupid. If ever I was in the dock, I'd rather have him represent me than any solicitor. I analysed what he was doing, as far as I could, and it became a lot clearer to me how he had managed to build a large business or few. Ionics has its knockers on here but the bit I find it hard to fault them on is presentation, both of their business and of the window cleaning industry at a public hearing (though I accept Craig was there for the FWC rather than for Ionics/BWCA). My hunch is that we would pretty much be left alone until we got into, or close to, standpipe territory. By the time it gets that far, the window cleaners' case is far more difficult to argue because you could be choosing between having drinking water/failure of public water supply versus cleaning windows by pole.
Back in the 80s, Margaret "Tina" Thatcher's mantra was "One man's pay rise is another man's job loss.". It is both appalling and preventable that it could later become "One man's bath is another man's job loss."
If things do end up getting worse, I think the water companies would be surprised to find that many window cleaners can be pretty accommodating. Personally, to help prevent a crisis, I would be open to squeegeeing reachable windows. I would also be open to running on resin only even though I receive hard water. Those two measures alone could potentially achieve a 75% reduction in water usage. OK it would cost me more to run my business plus I would earn less (or work longer for the same) but I'm not such an ogre that I wouldn't be prepared to do my bit.
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most water companies have this on their website
Any activities that are necessary for health and safety reasons (i.e. necessary to remove or minimise any risk to human or animal health/safety or prevents/control the spread of causative agents of disease).
H&s was changed regarding ladders so youll find that as we now need to use water fed poles because of the change in H&S and is detrimental to your business then you should be able to carry on as normal.
You can still clean a car with a bucket
You can still play gold on brown lawns
You can still clean your driveway with a broom.
We cannot use ladders to clean windows as the H&S was changed no matter what the debates about that are its fact .
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Hosepipe ban for 20 million in next 2-4 weeks. Even though this won't restrict us legally, residential customers will be feeling concientious about water conservation.
As I posted at the outset above, we won't be restricted legally.
I hope they don't take this debate up too soon, those of us who filter reasonable large quantities of water from home also produce a lot of waste water. Now I know that goes down your drain, but wouldn't it make more sense to just let it run on our gardens, and next doors', and next door to them too?
Or maybe I'm missing something..
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http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/news.html
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This is old technology can can easily be adapted for the UK but money for the shareholders come first.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sahara-forest-project-that-breathes-life-into-deserts-claims-climate-week-2012-award.html
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I will carry on wfp.all my custies already no that ladders are banned so they will be happy for me to wfp.
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good link, thanks steve
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i spoke to severn trent today and they say there will be NO hose ban this year for severn trent areas.
and even if there was it would not effect water fed pole window cleaners.
just goes to show the media jumping on it again fear mongering spreading all there bull pooe .
thats because most of our water is piped from wales..if you arenot in a severn trent area
in the midlands you could be in trouble by the time that summer arrives
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Anyone would think it's a foregone conclusion that it's never going to rain.
In the history of the UK, just how many stage 3 drought orders (or the equivalent) have there been?
I'm not saying it's impossible but the grounds of probability are it won't and anyway, if it's going to happen, it will, and if it won't, it won't. Endlessly chewing the chewed won't change a thing.
I'll just go back to cleaning those jobs that can be done trad. If you can't do that and you're worried, better start saving every penny now, think about what can be sold at boot markets and what luxuries can either be got rid of or canceled. Spend less on food, less on beer or f*gs, drive more carefully and save on petrol, don't buy any takeaways, or what ever. Most people can find ways to spend less but most don't want to or won't.
I was speaking to another local window cleaner about the drought and all that and he was worried but when I said about flogging his 3 year old car if needs be, he flatly refused. I've a van for work and a car, and if needs be, the car will be the first thing go.
Instead of worrying, £1 000 fines and all that junk rubbish 'what if' stuff, make some plans instead.
Rant over.
I have a cunning plan...............
Cleaning with a trolley or a backpack will draw a whole lot less attention to yourself than having yellow hoses draped across the pavements for all to see. Using a clear 6mm hose from the trolley won't show up so much. Things of that sort and a lot more trad should get us through. It will be slower of course but you have to think not only about the loss of income. You have to think about losing customers too.
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I will carry on wfp.all my custies already no that ladders are banned so they will be happy for me to wfp.
Well this is a big part of the problem - misinformation, ladders are not banned!
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Cheers Steve! Read this with much interest as H & S regulations would have been my argument too! I also have a koi pond though, which is classed apparently as livestock and not affected by a drought order, so if things were to come on top i could say i was filtering the waste pond water to clean windows! ;D ;D
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good stuff, nice info
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Just got this off veolia water website regarding the hose pipe ban, it's at the bottom of page 11
https://central.veoliawater.co.uk/docs/drought-restrictions-explained(1).pdf
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of ‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this de- ionised water, this activity is restricted.
What do you make of that?
THAT DOES NOT SOUND GOOD :o
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No problem fellers, hope it all helps.
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Interesting. Thanks for posting that.
It's also interesting the amount of guess work and speculation on some other threads regarding the same topic.
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Good information within the document- interesting take on the H& S aspect but well presented by Ionics
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For those who come under Southern Water.
With regards Southern Water. The measures coming into effect on April 5th DO NOT affect any business use of water. I have also phoned them and I can carry on using my RO system even if it's connected via a hosepipe.
http://www.southernwater.co.uk/News/latestNews/default.asp?aID=76510414&year=2012&month=03
Drought forces water restrictions in Kent and Sussex - 12/3/2012
Southern Water is to bring in restrictions on water use for the first time since 2005/6, following the second driest 12 months on record.
From April 5, the company is restricting the use of hosepipes and sprinklers in Kent and Sussex. The restrictions apply to customers whose water is supplied by Southern Water and primarily cover domestic, not commercial, use.
They also include:
Watering of public parks, gardens and allotments
Filling swimming pools, paddling pools, ponds and fountains
Any apparatus connected to a hosepipe
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Hows does this wording work in the caseof draught order ?
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Just got this off veolia water website regarding the hose pipe ban, it's at the bottom of page 11
https://central.veoliawater.co.uk/docs/drought-restrictions-explained(1).pdf
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of ‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this de- ionised water, this activity is restricted.
What do you make of that?
Exceptions
A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning
of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety. Its not very reassuring mate, but maybe we'll have to use those h&s rules back at them, the same way they did on us when using ladders! Im with veolia too, so it looks like a grey area? Would it be a water ban v H&S issues? Or tops wfp and base trad? If it does get that bad, ill have to go to a commercial pure water supplier, untill the ban is lifted.
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Southern Water is clear. What's not allowed is: "Non-commercial cleaning of domestic windows, walls, paths or patios with a hosepipe"
From http://www.southernwater.co.uk/pdf/environment/waterResources/droughtRestrictions.pdf
Vin
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hmmmm in a nut shell as long as the drought doesn't get to bad domestic window cleaners can use the health and safety reg's to supersede the drought order, if it does the water companies still withhold the right to enforce it.
Commercial window cleaners are totally fine.
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ill have to go to a commercial pure water supplier, untill the ban is lifted.
You may find they're prevented from producing water themselves as a result of the restrictions. Cant see why not if they ban others from producing water and cleaning windows with it.
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WHAT ABOUT THE BREWERYS AND SOFT DRINK MANUFACTURERS ETC? THERE ARE LOADS OF INDUSTRYS THAT WILL GRIND TO A HALT IF THEY GO FULL ON DROUGHT ORDER.
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A month of drought oder and this place will be an apocolyptic mess! ;D
Mad Max here we come! :o
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A month of drought oder and this place will be an apocolyptic mess! ;D
Mad Max here we come! :o
2 days ago, i saw a truck that could haul that tank of gas!!
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Thanks for posting that info. Steve, interesting and it's good to be well informed, cheers
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At least if they stop businesses from using water then the inland revenue will also loose money from less tax having to be paid due to loss of work
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just been told via violia water cant use hose at any domestic to fill up tank, doesnt matter ifur a business or what ur using it for, cant even fill up at home unless reg commercial.
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purify water into ibc from ibc to barrels no hose, problem solved :)
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just been told via violia water cant use hose at any domestic to fill up tank, doesnt matter ifur a business or what ur using it for, cant even fill up at home unless reg commercial.
What are you going to do?
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purify water into ibc from ibc to barrels no hose, problem solved :)
Er no according to Violia you can not use wfp Suggest you ring them... doesnt matter if you purify via fixed plumbing then transfer into tank can not use on domestic properties!
Who said it wont effect wfp
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just been told via violia water cant use hose at any domestic to fill up tank, doesnt matter ifur a business or what ur using it for, cant even fill up at home unless reg commercial.
What are you going to do?
At this moment no idea just had email from Violia will not even let us hire stand pipe to fill up tank as we will be using the water to clean domestic properties. Mainly roofs at this moment its our business gone.
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Violia are the only company to say this, all the others say wc'ers can carry on :-\
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Violia are the only company to say this, all the others say wc'ers can carry on :-\
Had to mod this just spoke to Angian we can pressure wash domestic + commercial didnt ask about wfp l...
According to Violia WFP banned, will not allow you to purify then transfer into tank as it will be used on domestics with wfp. *ucking crazy. We were looking to go over 85% recycled doesnt mean a thing still cant do it.
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Violia are the only company to say this, all the others say wc'ers can carry on :-\
What are you going to do ??? ???
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I spoke to veolia (my supplier) yesterday and they said there was no hose pipe ban in my area (clacton) as the water they draw is from underground sources,but 5 miles up the road in colchester there will be a hose pipe ban as the water comes from ardleigh reservoir.
I suppose veolia have differant regulations for the differant areas that they run....
https://east.veoliawater.co.uk/at-home.aspx
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My brother is with Essex and Suffolk water and they have no ban in place at the moment, so I can get him do it.
If I was in your situation, I would carry on, and go down the heals and safety line i the ionics link, if I got question.
There was a guy who worked for the water companies on the radio yesterday and according to him, no one has ever been fined for using a hose pipe during a ban
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Veolia Central Water state clearly on web site that WFP is restricted (although could be fought under health and safety according to the exception listed). I have spoken in some length and await written confirmation stating clearly that commercial or mixed (commercial/domestic) water users are not restricted and can continue to use WFP on any property commercial or domestic. The web site applies to those who use water at domestic sites rather than water drawn from a commercial/mixed source.
My understanding is that if using WFP you should be rated as a commercial user (if operating from a commercial site) or a mixed user if operating from a domestic site. I imagine most would be classified as mixed users. Costs would increase by the appropriate cubic metre rate (assessed if non metered) plus the whole bill would be subject to VAT (even the original domestic element) I would estimate a cost of around £400 per user however this would be offset against tax.
We are currently at level 3, they will escalate this to level 4 in August if we have insufficient rainfall, this would affect/restrict commercial/mixed users including WFP, at that point its ladders out or we all do a rain dance :))
Hope this helps.
Ps. We have six vans, 99.9% domestic, classified as a mixed user and will continue to operate WFP during the level 3 restriction.
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Are you saying that you are on a different tariff to a standard domestic usage being a mixed user?
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purify water into ibc from ibc to barrels no hose, problem solved :)
Er no according to Violia you can not use wfp Suggest you ring them... doesnt matter if you purify via fixed plumbing then transfer into tank can not use on domestic properties!
Who said it wont effect wfp
have no need im in a severn trent area my water comes from wales ;)
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No, the tariff remains the same, just charged for the cubic metre used, in our case we use around 200 cubic metres per year per operator. The additional tarriff's are for mid 3000+ or large 50,000+ cubic metre users and therefore cheaper than the standard rate.
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So as a domestic customer can we be classed as mixed users?
Let us know when you get a reply from violia
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Thats different from what they have told me ??? They stated we can not even transfer purified water from a static purified tank to vehicle tank as it will be used via wfp. Doesnt matter if its domestic or commercial. Seems they are giving out conflicting advice will request written clarification.
I can't see how HS is going to help surely their point is windows dont need to be cleaned ??
Obviously at a cost to us!
Email response to pressure washing - in effect stopped altogether both Domestic and Commercial
Hello Donna (my partner!)
Thank you for your quick response. Having read through the restrictions unfortunately we would not be able to grant you a licence for any cleaning works for driveways (both domestic and commercial properties), patios and roofs of domestic properties. This falls under the restricted activity of cleaning other artificial outdoor surfaces using a hosepipe. It mentions that this activity would not be allowed regardless who is undertaking the cleaning and whether they are domestic or commercial.
Full details including the restrictions and definitions can be found on our drought webpage following this link https://central.veoliawater.co.uk/drought.aspx If you have licences with neighbouring water companies it would be advisable to contact them also as we are one of 6 companies in the South East having to take these measures.
If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards, Kay
Kay Lewin
Hydrant Enforcement Team
___________________________________________
Veolia Water
Tamblin Way, Hatfield, Herts, AL10 9EZ
DD: +44 (0)1707 398605 (Ext: 6605)
www.veoliawater.co.uk/central
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I have been speaking with a lady called Sheila, I believe she is handling/is in charge of the restriction issues for Veolia Central. She advised today that they have/will amend the guidelines to clearly state that as a business drawing water from your own location (not your clients domestic residence) you are not restricted in using WFP to clean domestic and or commercial properties. I was advised you should be classified as a mixed user (commercial/domestic) which means you will have VAT applied to the whole bill, however I have since seen documentation covering another area that would negate this.
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these water companies cant lose can they! supplly less and will be able
to cast their net out to engulf more money!
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these water companies cant lose can they! supplly less and will be able
to cast their net out to engulf more money!
Its crazy they fail to provide then profit from it!
I have been told by Anglian we can continue to pressure wash as a business (which is good!) but have to use their standpipes, these are not metered !
So basically we have to pay them to use a standpipe which isnt metered whats the difference from using a domestic tap! (they get extra £400 + a yr)
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I have been speaking with a lady called Sheila, I believe she is handling/is in charge of the restriction issues for Veolia Central. She advised today that they have/will amend the guidelines to clearly state that as a business drawing water from your own location (not your clients domestic residence) you are not restricted in using WFP to clean domestic and or commercial properties. I was advised you should be classified as a mixed user (commercial/domestic) which means you will have VAT applied to the whole bill, however I have since seen documentation covering another area that would negate this.
There is still no change on there website. ???
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Lee, although you say you pay your bill to Veola there is a pretty good chance you actually come under Thames Water. Thames Water is the big daddy, Veola is just the billing agent.
Its hard to say but I strongly believe Thames Water has the juristiction. Try this -
1) Search THAMES WATER AREA MAP and see if you are in their area. If you are print it off and keep it
2) Search THAMES WATER HOSEPIPE BAN and print it off. Then get a highlighter pen and highlight item 3 in the exemptions
This might make you feel a bit better
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these water companies cant lose can they! supplly less and will be able
to cast their net out to engulf more money!
Its crazy they fail to provide then profit from it!
I have been told by Anglian we can continue to pressure wash as a business (which is good!) but have to use their standpipes, these are not metered !
So basically we have to pay them to use a standpipe which isnt metered whats the difference from using a domestic tap! (they get extra £400 + a yr)
Was told above yesterday by Anglian look at their website states as we are a business can carry on as normal using hose... they havent got a clue!
Veolia still say we cant use their water on domestics and they are applying current law... they are saying Anglian are wrong! F**king crazy
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Just heard from Veolia, complete u-turn, legal team state we cannot use WFP on domestics in their area even though we are a business. It would appear that they have decided to stand alone and interpret the law to restrict our business. I am still in communication with them.
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Thames water.
http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/corp/hs.xsl/15443.htm ;)
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ExemptionsThe following will be exempted from the restriction:
i.using a hosepipe in a garden or for cleaning walls or windows of domestic premises, paths or patios, a private leisure boat or an artificial outdoor surface, where such use is necessary for health and safety reasons.
ii.watering a garden attached to a domestic dwelling or watering plants on domestic premises using a hosepipe, by people with severe mobility problems who hold a current Blue Badge as issued by their local authority.
iii.using a hosepipe to clean a private motor vehicle, or walls and windows of domestic premises, where this is done as a service to customers in the course of a business.
iv.using a hosepipe to water an area of grass or artificial outdoor surfaces used for sport or recreation, where this is required in connection with a national or international sports event.
v.drip or trickle irrigation watering systems, fitted with a pressure reducing valve and a timer, that are not handheld, that place water drip by drip directly onto the soil surface or beneath the soil surface, without any surface run off or dispersion of water through the air using a jet or mist.
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Just heard from Veolia, complete u-turn, legal team state we cannot use WFP on domestics in their area even though we are a business. It would appear that they have decided to stand alone and interpret the law to restrict our business. I am still in communication with them.
john can u check your answer phone, wanted a quick word. cheers m
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There has been a very large number of new houses built in this region over the last decade or two which means increasing profits for water companies. Problem is it is the driest part of the country. So have they been making new reservoirs to cope with increasing demand from all these new homes?
I don't think so.
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im buying mine from a commerical unit so should be fine but im worried the situation gets worse.. i wish for once it would bloody rain
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tomorrow mate,your wish will come true
:P
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tomorrow mate,your wish will come true
:P
really cos i have a canvassing day planed? still i dont car as long a sit bloody rains and keeps those water bars of our backs
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Sorry if this has been said already, but on the veolia central restrictions, regarding window and building cleaning it says:
Storage tanks
Restrictions apply to water drawn from the mains supply after the statutory notice has been
given. So water drawn into a container prior to that date may be used for cleaning the
exterior of buildings.
(bold font added)
Therefore the use of a WFP system is not going to be banned.
The restriction is producing the DI water from mains/hosepipe.
I'm not 100% clear on this but... it also states that:
If a building can be cleaned by permanent plumbing then it is still a permitted activity.
So maybe if a RO/DI system was permanently plumbed in (ie not just hose from garden tap to RO system) then maybe the water production could be carried on(?)
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But how much water can you store? thats going to give you an extra 2 days max
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Just to clarify:
The hosepipe ban is now in force for 20 million users.
I've read some threads saying you can clean domestic but you can't clean commercial, or the other way round etc.
Just to help anyone who may be getting mixed up, these regulations are written to property owner, be he commercial or domestic. They are asking the property owner to refrain from using a hosepipe.
We, as windowcleaners can go and clean the windows of a domestic or commercial, or any premises, it's our livelihood.
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yawn yawn.....!!whats all the fuss about?
just carry on as normal.if you want to trad the ground floor windows then do that.
it simply doesnt affect businesses.you have to go about your business and earn money!
i remember there was a hose pipe ban up here in the north west in my first year wfp.i just carried on and no complaints off customers whatsover.
I NEVER EVEN GAVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT!!sometimes in life its better not to give a toss about some things.this is one of them IMO.
REGARDS
DAZMOND
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I too have been in windowcleaning a little while now, Dazmond. 25 years, the last 7 wfp.
You've repeated the same info as me, but I think mine may have been a little more helpful and polite! ;)
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Its not so much as how it effects us but i think some customers reactions will be negative because you are allowed something they aren't and we all know how funny folks can be. Interesting!! in fact i called anglian water yesterday to ask if i was ok to use mine as it feeds ro and told its fine but and logged it down in case anyone tries to shop me, FEEEEW lol
interestin
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Too many of you are creating negative scenarios cos you're worried about the hosepipe ban. Just get on with your job and stop worrying.
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So, any updates on the hosepipe bans?
There was a lot of speculation earlier this year, wasn't there?
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old news/ topic ....tosh