Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AuRavelling79 on March 06, 2012, 11:52:03 pm
-
Well I dunno - looking at safety stuff on the net it seems the most secure way is up against the bulkhead and fixed to the anchorage points (if rated high enough - but half tonne per point in modern vans I think and should be 3 x weight restrained so a 650L tank should be anchored at at least 4 anchor points).
Using ratchet straps they should be at as low an angle to the horizontal as poss - preferably at less than 60 degrees in which case they should be rated for twice the weight of the full tank.
Thoughts?
-
If you could post a link to your findings that would help those who will say it should be bolted.
Otherwise you will be accused of not showing value for the gift of life.
Personally sounds reaonable to me.
-
its all about not having to much weight over your axles, ;)
cause if you do then you know what will happen if you get pulled and told to get on a weigh bridge ;)
more important me thinks
-
I'd be interested to see your findings too gold, I was unable to get definite facts myself.
I wouldn't trust these lashing points unless the tank was up against the bulkhead. tho from my experience, and obviously depending on van payload and how close you get to your max weight, up against the bulkhead tends to overload the front axle slightly, if you have an upright tank.
-
NOT up against the bulkhead. In a smash the bulkhead is too fragile to provide any real protection, and even the best restraints may allow the tank to move a little.
Also,.. using the standard anchor points is not enough. The tank may only weigh 650kg, but in a crash this force can be multiplied by 40 to 50 "High G loads are common even at low speeds, which explains why child safety seats are so vital. For example, the dummies in the federally mandated 30 mph crash test routinely register 40 to 50 Gs. " Source: http://www.vcu.edu/cppweb/tstc/crashinvestigation/kinetic.html
You really need a restraint system that will hold 30 tonne or more,... and that's just for a 30mph crash!
-
Utter balls
-
100% agree with Nathaniel. Also if you have an upright tank against the bulkhead you will most likely overload the front axle so can be fined if caught.
-
Utter balls
I think you can become paranoid really in that if you believe that having an accident that will make your 400/650kg water tank kill you from behind you forget that it will prolly kill you with the immovable structure you hit or the 1.5 to 30 tonne car or wagon that hits you from the front.
While I don't agree with nokmonds way of giving his brutal comment - it is not fathomable to have 30 tonne ratings in a van that can only weigh less than two tonnes itself.
The websites I looked at are a mix for Aus and NZ regs; USA and UK Health and safety for load securing. Google "Safety of loads on vehicles" and you'll find illustrations and ratings for different vans and lorries.
The guidelines seem to be that against the bulkhead (if factory fitted in a vehicle to "western standards") stops the intial movement and that the load against the bulkhead should be no more than half the vehicle payload - so in a 1000kg payload van then a 500kg load against the bulkhead is a maximum guideline - the point made is that it's better to make sure the load doesn't "let go" because if it does then the bulkhead will not stand the same force.
If you lash to anchorage points (the system is only as strong as its weakest point) they should be rated at 500kg per point in a vehicle up to 2 tonnes payload and there should be 6, 8, or 10 points depending on the length of the "bed".
It seems that a (say) 500kg load should have 3 times its weight in lashing points.
Also webbing straps are highly favoured but should be kept dry (as you can lose 15% strength), cut or fray free and free of corrosives as you can lose all the strength.
They should also be at low angles, preferably below 60 degrees from horizointal as the load they in turn put on the anchorages increases greatly if pulling upward then "along" - indeed at 60 degrees you "only" need a strap and anchors at twice the weight where as with the strap at 80 degrees (almost upright) you need ten times the weight due to the pull on the anchor point.
That last point is proven by the principle that if you had a nail into a piece of wood and pulled out at a low angle it would "never" come out without destroying the wood where as at a high angle it will pull out relatively easily.
You'll have to google various sites to find it all.
But .... to the "chassis mod" boys the recommends are you don't modify the vehicle without consulting the manufacturers.
All my untrained musings and talking to guys with engineering and welding "nouce" but no formal qualifications.
-
Pretty much agree with Nat. Although i haven't a clue about the figures. If you search the net for loads on HGV's for instance you will see diagrams of the angles that ratchet straps need to be. With an upright 650l tank you'd need to be secured near the back door and beyond. Most lashing points in vans look less impressive than a normal seat belt mounting, some of the points (Citroen) are like spaghetti hoops welded to the wheel arches.
You could of course use a bit of plywood and some batons glued to the floor.
-
You could of course use a bit of plywood and some batons glued to the floor.
;D lol!
thanks for info gold, yes that's why if it's not bolted to chassis (and maybe even then) I prefer up against the bulkhead. if, or rather, when the tie downs let go, the bulkhead will last better than a huge mass of the tank hitting it at speed.
-
Good point Mark - I found that too - the thing is when an accident causes forces to "pull" anchorage points out the van (as opposed to breaking flimsy D rings and underrated straps) the forces are colossal the impact itself is likely to kill you whether its the unsafe load from behind, the concrete pillar from the front or the wagon from the side.
We should focus on the tank and I think the scaremainering channelled properly is good but also serves to fill the pockets of certain scaremainers in the system building and insurance industry.
And don't forget - the tank should be baffled too which helps.
-
Personally I think the upright 650l tanks are poor in that their shape makes them inherently unstable. The 500l tanks by contrast are more cube shaped (if that makes sense) so have a lower centre of gravity and so are more stable.
Personally I am not a fan of lay flat tanks as it can be a pain to pump the water when the level gets low unless you park up on a kerb facing the right way.
If the 650l tanks were more cube shaped they would be easier to safely secure. An alternateive would be to have a tank custom built e.g www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk
-
also the shape of my van, and the fact that my tank is mounted on a platform means it physically cannot fit into the cab area. however this will all change when I get my 500 litre tank..... :S
in ref to dd comment there appear to be 2 sizes with 500 litre upright, a narrow but tall tank, and one that is more cubelike as you say. I paid more to get the cube one.
-
Entirely up to you Mr Gold ;)
But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.
This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.
-
Entirely up to you Mr Gold ;)
But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.
This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.
You could prove that point by showing us where these death traps have actually caused serious injury.
It is more likely that in such an accident the plastic tank would rupture and shed its load rather than come through a bulkhead.
-
Entirely up to you Mr Gold ;)
But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.
This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.
What is "properly"?
Modifying the chassis without the manufacturer's "blessing"? - buying a tank fitting kit that hasn't got the same? Going to an engineering firm and still not getting the manufacturer's blessing?
If you buy from a system installer what guarantee do you get? I don't mean insurance compliant - I mean safety compliant.
As far as I can see safety regs indicate a load must be "secure" is there anything beyond this that I am missing?
I do have sympathy with sunshine's view - where are the accidents from these unsecured tanks in real life?
-
Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.
I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.
If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! ;D
-
Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.
I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.
If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! ;D
Not at all! ;D
I'm about to fit a 650 layflat and am quite happy to do what is necessary - it ain't rocket science - just means getting a competent person to tell me what to do. I know guys who can weld and "do light engineering" - it's not the Clifton Suspension Bridge!!!!
-
Sounds like your mind is made up. ;D
Deathtraps - we've all seen them on here over the years: tanks with a metal band mounted in the wrong direction, 1000l ibc tanks with a bungy rope, loose 25ltr containers and no bulkhead at all. I'm not pushing any brand - I just had mine mounted as best as possible by an engineer - peace of mind knowing there is nothing more I can do apart from going to Ionics. Do what you like boys, makes no difference to me.
-
Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.
I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.
If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! ;D
why do they have to justify ?
some people scrimp on things I think thats a fact thats overlooked here.
I have had a factory fitted system, I designed 2 others and still I went done the road of having it fitted to van by coach builders at extra expense, I have done what I feel is within my relm to make my vans safe for me and for people driving it.
the question is has others ?
to your crashing theory I have not seen anyone crash with or without a factory fitted system, the crash tests that have been done are not real life crashes.
do you know anyone that's crashed with a strapped system, a factory fitted system, a system as mark etting said about have been shown on here, ibcs unsecured held back with a ply batten etc which is dangerous. ?
-
Utter balls
Congratulations on a well-thought-out and perfectly reasoned argument. You have me convinced.
-
Its surprisingly easy to fit incredibly strong anchor points to a van WITHOUT modifying the structure.
NEVER drill through the chassis, only make holes in non-structural elements (the floor for example)
All you need is to get brackets made up that go around the chassis members in a -|_|- shape with 4 big high tensile bolts going up through the van floor to a flat plate with a securing ring on top. Tighten the bolts & it'll hold the bracket to chassis member and provide you with an anchor point that cannot be moved without ripping the chassis in half.
Repeat this 3 more times, once for each corner of your tank and use four 20 tonne ratchet straps to hold the tank down,... simples.
Straps should be inspected regularly, tightened as required & replaced according to the manufacturers instructions.
-
Its surprisingly easy to fit incredibly strong anchor points to a van WITHOUT modifying the structure.
NEVER drill through the chassis, only make holes in non-structural elements (the floor for example)
All you need is to get brackets made up that go around the chassis members in a -|_|- shape with 4 big high tensile bolts going up through the van floor to a flat plate with a securing ring on top. Tighten the bolts & it'll hold the bracket to chassis member and provide you with an anchor point that cannot be moved without ripping the chassis in half.
Repeat this 3 more times, once for each corner of your tank and use four 20 tonne ratchet straps to hold the tank down,... simples.
Straps should be inspected regularly, tightened as required & replaced according to the manufacturers instructions.
Fuel tank, fuel pipe's, exhaust, spare wheel fixing, handbrake cable, shocker's and shock dampener's will alway's get in the way. It can be done on some van's, but it certainly is not simple by any mean's. On many, a Connect included, it just can't be done this way.
-
Its surprisingly easy to fit incredibly strong anchor points to a van WITHOUT modifying the structure.
NEVER drill through the chassis, only make holes in non-structural elements (the floor for example)
All you need is to get brackets made up that go around the chassis members in a -|_|- shape with 4 big high tensile bolts going up through the van floor to a flat plate with a securing ring on top. Tighten the bolts & it'll hold the bracket to chassis member and provide you with an anchor point that cannot be moved without ripping the chassis in half.
Repeat this 3 more times, once for each corner of your tank and use four 20 tonne ratchet straps to hold the tank down,... simples.
Straps should be inspected regularly, tightened as required & replaced according to the manufacturers instructions.
Fuel tank, fuel pipe's, exhaust, spare wheel fixing, handbrake cable, shocker's and shock dampener's will alway's get in the way. It can be done on some van's, but it certainly is not simple by any mean's. On many, a Connect included, it just can't be done this way.
there is no such word as can't most things are possible if you think it can be done.
-
very true. but it doesn't make something surprisingly easy then. and any modifications to a vehicle make selling it on more difficult (unless it keeps its use as a wfp system van).
-
very true. but it doesn't make something surprisingly easy then. and any modifications to a vehicle make selling it on more difficult (unless it keeps its use as a wfp system van).
I just took mine to a coach builders and got them to fit it, sod doing it myself again, cut knuckles a lot of sweating and getting dirty or pay about £100/£150 and get it done for you. No brainer really
-
there is no such word as can't most things are possible if you think it can be done
Ok, if you say so sunny Jim. I will believe that.
-
I just took mine to a coach builders and got them to fit it, sod doing it myself again, cut knuckles a lot of sweating and getting dirty or pay about £100/£150 and get it done for you. No brainer really
that's cheap window washers what did they do to fit your tank?
Sorry don't know a lot about fitted tanks, reading all this with intrest. ;)
-
I just took mine to a coach builders and got them to fit it, sod doing it myself again, cut knuckles a lot of sweating and getting dirty or pay about £100/£150 and get it done for you. No brainer really
that's cheap window washers what did they do to fit your tank?
Sorry don't know a lot about fitted tanks, reading all this with intrest. ;)
I supplied the tank and custom made frame
they drilled the holes supplied the bolts and nuts and fitted it securely, I got receipt.
They know more than me and they secure a lot heavier things than my tank, so happy to pay it, also the other reasons I put up also play a factors because I am a tart
-
On a connect/pug partner and many other small vans you'll need to drop the fuel tank to fit the brackets,.. its a bit of extra work, but by no means impossible.
On bigger vans its usually dead simple to do.
-
Thanks window washers, money well spent there not a fortune and you saved yourself a weekend of stress :D
-
local windy round here has two 200l sanky water butts ratchet strapped to the inside of his berlingo! he used to have a flat tank fitted upright and 1 water butt but has now obviously upgraded
-
On a connect/pug partner and many other small vans you'll need to drop the fuel tank to fit the brackets,.. its a bit of extra work, but by no means impossible.
On bigger vans its usually dead simple to do.
Hi Nat,
One of the other problems with these 'car derived' vans is that the manufacturers put a plate over the footwell that would be used in the people carrier version to make the cargo floor level. So securing the front of the tank to a chassis structure is very difficult as the cargo floor and the footwell is seperated by a gap of about 200mm or more.
So on both the Peugeot Partner and the LWB Connect we fitted tanks to, the front was secured to this leveling plate with spreader plates underneath.
Spruce
-
the forces involved are higher than you might think.
its a simple matter of A-level maths and the equations of motion (brings back memories this)
Force = mass x acceleration
we know that the mass of say a 650 litre system is about probably about 680kg, but what is the acceleration? (or decceleration in this case)
the equation of motion to use in this case will be v=u+at where v=final speed, u= initial speed t=time and a=acceleration.
v(final speed) will be zero
u(initial speed) will be 30mph which is 13.41metres per second in SI units
t is the time. I think its safe to say that if you had a crash into a solid object you'd come to a stop within quarter of a second, so i'm assuming this is 0.25
so, rearranging that equation to find the accelleration gives us:
(v-u)/t = a
(0-13.41)/.25 = a
so the acceleration a=-53.64 m/s/s
(its a negative number cos its deceleration, but the magnitude of the force is still the same)
so the force exerted by a 680kg load travelling at 30mph, and stopping in quater of a second is:
Force = mass x acceleration
Force = 680 x -53.64
Force = -36,475.2 kg
or 36.4752 tonnes, and that is only at 30mph
so your restraints need to be able to hold 36 tonnes.
My old maths teacher would be proud!
;D ;D ;D
-
Interesting and revealing, thanks Nick
-
I like your solution, but rather than guessing the deceleration time, why not use v2=u2+2as?
Then the crumple zone size = s (=distance of deceleration)
If the crumple zone is 1m (generous, but possible)
Then v2 = 13.42
u = 0 (final velocity)
and s = 1
so 13.42=2a
180 = 2a
a = 90m/s/s
And F = 61.2tonnes.
Even worse.
-
A quick look at, say, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMl-WQ5XkMI suggests 0.25 of a second is VERY generous. And that my 1m crumple zone is also VERY generous.
Looks more like 0.07 seconds on there. So by your maths, about 140 tonnes.
Those straps (the ones meant to hold stuff on the back of a lorry from flying or rolling off) and bulkheads (the ones meant to stop small items hitting you on the back of the head when you brake) need to be pretty tough, if you ask me.
Vin
-
If you do the maths, it's quite hilarious (in a morbid way) to see some of these DIY systems with little more then some straps going over the top. They won't be able to stop a tank from moving. But for some reason people insist that the forces involved are nowhere near that amount and that it's safe as can be. It's their lives, but you gotta feel sorry for their lack of comprehension.
-
and yet 97% of people (according to golds pole) have not personally heard of anyone whose tank has gone thru bulkhead or injured someone apparently.......
you'd have thought it would be higher with the amount of cowboys like me out there with our straps..... :D :o :P
-
If you do the maths, it's quite hilarious (in a morbid way) to see some of these DIY systems with little more then some straps going over the top. They won't be able to stop a tank from moving. But for some reason people insist that the forces involved are nowhere near that amount and that it's safe as can be. It's their lives, but you gotta feel sorry for their lack of comprehension.
It's because they strap their tanks in with ratchet straps, try to manually shift and they can't, understandably. They then respond witha smile on their faces with 'That ain't going anywhere' failing to realise that their strength is negligible compared to the forces created in an accident.
-
You're all assuming accidents only happen with a tank FULL of water, just make sure if you're gonna have one, make it the end of the working day :)
-
One guy on here is so confident his tank is "going nowhere" because he's fixed it to the bulkhead with spreader plates and ratchet straps.
I might have got the wrong end of the stick and he should be fairly safe I suppose .............................. provided he drives backwards everywhere!
-
and yet 97% of people (according to golds pole) have not personally heard of anyone whose tank has gone thru bulkhead or injured someone apparently.......
you'd have thought it would be higher with the amount of cowboys like me out there with our straps.....
And you think 57 people that never heard of any accident involving water tanks is a good size test sample group to risk your live for, with simple physics that can't be disputed working 100% against you. Seriously? :-\
-
A bit like smoking I suppose - the warning signs are there only many choose to ignore them.
When I started I ratchet strapped 650l to the floor with spreader plates only under the floor. I thought the Ionics crash test was a load of rubbish to be honest. One day I tried to remove the tank with less than an inch of water - I couldn't lift it at all, not even one end. It dawned on me then the colossal weight of water.
-
and yet 97% of people (according to golds pole) have not personally heard of anyone whose tank has gone thru bulkhead or injured someone apparently.......
you'd have thought it would be higher with the amount of cowboys like me out there with our straps.....
And you think 57 people that never heard of any accident involving water tanks is a good size test sample group to risk your live for, with simple physics that can't be disputed working 100% against you. Seriously? :-\
it's definitely by no means conclusive. and even if it was 500 people, it still wouldn't be conclusive. a test (or several) in varying test environments where a load is up against the bulkhead and 'better' restrained than what is shown in ionics etc video would be conclusive.
I know personally a whole heap of window cleaners. I also know of quite a few who have had accidents, some big enough to 'write off' their vehicle. yet none of them got injured or killed by their tanks. this, too, isn't proof. but my reasoning is that surely more people would have known some more ppl injured in this mini poll.
for sure having a load properly secured is safer than the huge question mark over bulkhead integrity, tie down points, bungees (!) etc. No doubting it! but I feel perhaps there is a certain amount of scaremainering also. that or maybe everyone has been lucky and not had big enough smashes with enough water on board!
the likes of ionics etc would have a lot more converts to professionally fitted systems if their test was slightly more realistic, i.e. better secured, against the bulkhead....... as opposed to all I've seen on these tests so far. that being said it's on my to do list once I've collected my new tank tomorrow. don't know what that says ....that I agree it's got to be safer?!
-
and yet 97% of people (according to golds pole) have not personally heard of anyone whose tank has gone thru bulkhead or injured someone apparently.......
you'd have thought it would be higher with the amount of cowboys like me out there with our straps..... :D :o :P
It only needs to happen to you once to spoil your day.
Can you foresee a situation where, with a tank full of water, you hit something at 30mph (or worse)?
Well, I can, so mine's a Gardiners, thanks.
Vin