Clean It Up

UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Hilton on January 14, 2011, 01:02:36 pm

Title: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 14, 2011, 01:02:36 pm
Here's a comforting thought for the start of the new year,

Tesco have been trialling a Home Repair Service for the past 3 months out of their Swindon branch, they leaflet dropped 180000 homes in the area offering everything from Glaziers to Locksmiths, they have admitted they aim to roll this out country wide and go into direct competition with British Gas Homeserve and the AA.

As Tesco have their own home insurance I suppose it was the logical next step to offer a one stop shop for all your needs, you even get double points on your card when you use the service. So Mrs Shopper will have her plumber in spend her money get points on her card then go back and shop in Tesco to redeem the points, what a blinding bit of marketing.

A friend of the family is a Tesco area manager and he has told me that there has been discussions about adding a
Soft Furnishings Cleaning Service if this happens and with their marketing power and loyalty brand shoppers, it would blow a lot of CC away for ever you simply could not compete.

Comforting thought is it not ?

By the way they have just launched 'Tesco Tyre's' to go in to competition with Quik-Fit

Tesco really are taking over the world.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Neil Williams on January 14, 2011, 01:14:22 pm
A friend of the family is a Tesco area manager and he has told me that there has been discussions about adding a
Soft Furnishings Cleaning Service if this happens and with their marketing power and loyalty brand shoppers, it would blow a lot of CC away for ever you simply could not compete.

A couple of thoughts:
1. Would this be on a sub contract basis to approved people or are they going to create their own Chemdry?
2. There will always be a place for sole trader types (otherwise there wouldn't be any small shops left in the country) but Chemdry, Rainbow, SM etc need to be a little concerned, if they go nationwide because high prices will be a part of history.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: gwrightson on January 14, 2011, 01:29:50 pm

and in responce to your post Hilton,
Where do youdo your shopping , Tesco,s i guess or some other big supermarket, i hate the places ,biggest rip of going and i get fed up of people complaning about supermarkets when in fact it is themselves who created the problem,
geoff
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 14, 2011, 01:48:45 pm
I wish I had created Tesco.

Yes we shop at Tesco, and Morrisons and M&S with some local shopping as well.

Whats that got do with the threat that will come from Tesco should they decide to operate a Carpet Cleaning Service, if you are worried that I might use them, rest assured I wont.  ::)
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Great One on January 14, 2011, 02:04:34 pm
In the future (far future0 there will be amajor global rebranding:

earth will be Tesco's

Moon will be Tesco express   ;D

Martin 8)
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: from edge2edge on January 14, 2011, 02:13:22 pm
Hilton Just woken up from a snooze and cant agree more with this thread Tescoland is here and all of us need to get used to it   aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh   we re all doooooooooooooooomed  Regards Alan(Swindon aka TESCOLAND WEST)
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: jasonl on January 14, 2011, 02:14:44 pm
This has been tried in America , and flopped , the ex MD of Chem Dry has just gone over to try and do it again for Homeserve.

The main reason it wont work is that there are too many variables and things that an emplotee can do wrong in someones home. Managing such an operation is too costly.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: M.Acorn on January 14, 2011, 02:26:21 pm
My bro in law works for the,he is a manager of one of their express stores,it`s all he ever talks about,Tesco this Tesco that,i hate the place.
But like it`s been said already,we created the monster,we were the ones who didn`t want to go to lot`s of different shops,as it was much easier to just do all the shopping at one
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 14, 2011, 02:26:50 pm
As I understand it and I believe that they have been doing this in Swindon,

They will use 'approved' local contractors not directly employed . Of course this could end being Chem-Dry or Servicemaster but not necessarily so.

With Tesco Tyres they have a couple of local tyre business's in the area who they appoint, the customer picks which one they want to use and also choose the time and date.

Double points all round.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: from edge2edge on January 14, 2011, 03:29:46 pm
Hilton I will await the call from the Swindon branch then Regards Alan(swindon)
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Tony_Browning on January 14, 2011, 04:11:17 pm
My local Tesco's are getting rather concerned with my new Green Grocer's venture  ;D
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Matt Seymour on January 14, 2011, 04:23:56 pm
Tesco considering offering soft furnishing cleaning?

That's not a company I would be wanting to go head to head with.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on January 14, 2011, 05:25:15 pm
i tried the Lloyds bank home repair service when my heating brokedown

It was not fixed in four weeks

Got british Gas

If Tesco whent into home-cleaning it would be in conjunction with a leading franchise

Just noticed Chem dry is back in my areas=
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: PaulKing on January 14, 2011, 05:31:16 pm
Is homeserver still cleaning carpets?
They used to as they took all the work in house and one of my staff left to join them, he's now doing pest control so guess they aren't anyone hear differently
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: clinton on January 14, 2011, 05:51:25 pm
Did another company try it in the late 90s ???Remmember seeing something in cleaning and higene mag years ago..
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Mark Slaney on January 14, 2011, 05:56:55 pm
  If they're going to be anything like Homeserve i would'nt worry. I get about 5-10 jobs a month from Homeserve correcting what the're tech's have made a mess of. Good thing about it is there mostly cushion covers and they post them to me so i can work from home. I actually done a job today for them- red wine stain on carpet in Fulham. The're tech had emptied tons of vanish :o into the carpet on two previous attemps, he even managed to leave some about a meter away from where the mark was.

Mark
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Griffus on January 14, 2011, 05:59:05 pm


If Tesco whent into home-cleaning it would be in conjunction with a leading franchise


Spot on, so does it really change anything?
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Matt Seymour on January 14, 2011, 06:15:09 pm
I suppose the major factor would be the scale of marketing Tesco are capable of.

If they do go for it they'd be hard to compete with.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: wynne jones on January 14, 2011, 06:30:14 pm
They can't compete with me.

They can't build a personal relationship, they can't be as flexible, they can't offer the depth and breadth of experience.

All they can offer is a brand and a price and I don't compete at all on these fronts.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Shaun_Ashmore on January 14, 2011, 06:30:58 pm
Tesco etc won't go into cleaning, they may go into insurance but not cleaning, WHY you ask? because if a Tesco clean your suite and it comes up 90% of the way then people will complain and therefore the brand will be tarnished.

Shaun
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: JandS on January 14, 2011, 06:40:12 pm
They hire out Rug Doctors at ours now, just noticed them yesterday.

John
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on January 14, 2011, 06:59:31 pm
If they start promoting a "value" carpet cleaning service then we be fcked!!  :'( lol

Seriously tho, big brand name at a cheap rate then this wont be good for most CC (putting bravado to one side)  I'm sure they'll do their market research on the pros and cons of carpet and upholstery cleaning and decided not to go down this route. Getting that quality just right while paying minum wage just anit gonna happen.

Tony
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Matt Seymour on January 14, 2011, 07:05:44 pm
I'm not so sure Tony.

Tesco is a massive and trusted name and if they offer a low cost service they will have plenty of takers.

They've already successfully expanded into so many other markets and I wouldn't bet against them making a success of anything they do. If they did prove successful other supermarket giants might also follow suit.

Hopefully, they would take more business from those of the inclination to hire a Rug Doctor rather than "proper" cleaners.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: davep on January 14, 2011, 07:18:32 pm
Who said they will be low cost? 
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on January 14, 2011, 07:21:22 pm
No, I am agreeing with you Matt. They are a massive brand and they do provide low prices. << This part might be their down fall though!

Even if they paid the person carrying out the clean  a whole £10 an hour, the quailty of the work will be brought in to question on more than one occasion. Thats not mentioning all the problems you'll encounter if you rush a job i.e. drenched carpets and upholstery, smells, shrinkage, bacteria growth, colour bleed, leaving items to high a ph etc etc

The only way they could do it would be to go in to partnership with the likes of chemdry, and take a comession for every job generated. But with the prices chemdry charge.... maybe not right for your average Tesco penny pincher type customer lol
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on January 14, 2011, 07:23:55 pm
Who said they will be low cost? 

Most likely Dave. Well atleast thats what their entire marketing stratagy is with everything else they sell anyways.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: wayne zabel on January 14, 2011, 07:34:13 pm
Tesco may be low cost on certain loss leaders but there prices compared to the real LOW COST supermarkets are high.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: clinton on January 14, 2011, 07:43:05 pm
If this is true whats stopping the other big so called 4 going into cleaning.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Neil Williams on January 14, 2011, 07:45:42 pm
It could work for them if they buy and sell in bulk, which is how supermarkets get their prices so low.
At the end of the day Tesco might be cheap but there are still enough people shopping at Waitrose, M&S etc which says people still don't mind paying extra for quality.
But at the end of the day I suspect it will be too much effort to justify the profit in what is really a small market place. Tyres are a different ball game, every house has at least 1 car if not 2, each car has 4 tyres and the law requires that they are kept to a certain standard at any given time.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Derek_Walker on January 14, 2011, 08:13:01 pm
I cannot see Tesco's entering the service market unless they can guarantee consistancy in their product, there are too many variables for that to happen. Offering a Rug Doctor is a better option for them, as the product stays the same but the result is down to the customer.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: John Kelly on January 14, 2011, 08:39:05 pm
Don't worry about it, its only competition. I know 3 plumbers, 1 works for British Gas, 1 works for a biggish private company, the other is an independant. Guess which one is the millionaire.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Neil Williams on January 14, 2011, 10:24:44 pm
It's not about what the individual earns, it's about what the 'parent company' can earn, so i'd guess BG would be the bigger in your example.
Tescos might not pay their staff much but their turnover/profit is massive.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Doctor Carpet (Ret'd) on January 14, 2011, 11:13:17 pm
Don't even know why be are bothering to debate this.

Tesco's sell products-we sell a service.

There is a difference.

Tesco will not be entering into the provision of a carpet cleaning service.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: John Kelly on January 15, 2011, 12:03:01 am
Maybe Tesco may enter into the service sector. Even if they don't you can bet that there will be some big players who will in future. Look on the positive side with their marketing clout they may even persuade more people to actually have their carpets cleaned. Which in my view is the thing which could really benefit the industry.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: heritagecleaning on January 16, 2011, 08:16:47 am
For the record, I'm in Swindon and have not seen or heard anything about this.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: seamus campbell on January 16, 2011, 04:29:45 pm
I really am begining to think that the only time CCers are happy , is when they have somthing to worry about, is this debate seriously about somthing that a company MAYBE THINKING about, Heard it all now,
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: PaulKing on January 16, 2011, 04:37:38 pm
The sky the sky its falling!
 :D
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Len Gribble on January 16, 2011, 05:29:30 pm
Now if lord Peckham with Bill Gates plus Warren Buffett (who has a stake in tescos below 3%) hope you get my drift  as for SKY what can I say ;D
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus) on January 16, 2011, 05:39:03 pm
If, as has been suggested by others on this forum, there isn't enough work out there to keep carpet cleaners busy - why on earth would Tesco want to get involved.

Or, just maybe there is shed loads of work around just waiting for you to capture.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Paolo on January 16, 2011, 05:52:23 pm
If, as has been suggested by others on this forum, there isn't enough work out there to keep carpet cleaners busy - why on earth would Tesco want to get involved.

Or, just maybe there is shed loads of work around just waiting for you to capture.

Why would you bother coming onto a forum and talking complete and utter sense?? ;D





Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Jamie Pearson on January 16, 2011, 09:33:23 pm
What happens when you buy an oven valet from curries / comet.

Is it an independent that attends?
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 17, 2011, 11:17:59 am
I have to have a chuckle at those who post things along the line of ' Its only a maybe' I bet Quick Fit were not saying that when they heard Tesco were entering their market, or Homeserve when they got wind of it. They would have prepared themselves to hit back with all manner of incentives and improved service.

Forewarned is forearmed, If they do not use the major franchisors then I suspect they will be looking towards local suppliers who would all be members of the NCCA (who will probably ignore this) fully insured of course and maybe Trading Standards Approved. I reckon if you were to get included you could probably guarantee year round custom.

Tesco's are definitely operating their Home Services in Swindon but not carpet cleaning (at present) at this stage its only a trial.

As for Rug Doctor operating out of their stores, how easy would it be for Tesco to look back over the past 3 years and see how many times the cleaners have been ordered out at any particular store, put the data together and then asses the benefits of offering their own service, with the might of their marketing machine behind them. As people do  now, walk in get your shopping and then book a carpet clean at the same time or do it on line with a guaranteed date and time slot.

Tesco is the 4th biggets retailer in the world, they want the lot I would not be at all surprised if at some point we have Tesco approved cleaners out there.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: seamus campbell on January 17, 2011, 12:23:31 pm
Do you seriously think every carpenter , plumber and spark, is sitting worirng about Tesco breaking into the market, And nobody knows if its even a maybe, I dont think i will start drawing up my battle plan just yet .   ; ;D
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 06:00:58 pm
If, as has been suggested by others on this forum, there isn't enough work out there to keep carpet cleaners busy - why on earth would Tesco want to get involved.

Or, just maybe there is shed loads of work around just waiting for you to capture.

Its not that there isn't enough work... Its the fact that its getting to expensive so they won't buy. Our prices are in a way being dictated by the suppliers of equipment and chemicals. The price of the machinary now by some of the sellers is astronomical.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: JandS on January 17, 2011, 06:45:03 pm
Your right about the equipment prices Monty.
Been looking at buying a new Drymaster tool.
£480 including "the dreaded" over here.

From America it's less than $480 inc shipping.
That's approx £263 + £37 shipping = $300
Know where I'll be buying.

John
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 06:52:29 pm
I now get most of my stuff from the US as allot cheaper. I am thinking of setting up and importing equipment and spare parts etc and selling on to the end user at a more realistic price. We are not paying for just the product anymore... we are paying for the particular brand. Makes me laugh cos most of it made at the same place. For me, it's not about masses of profit... its's about the right product at a reasonable price and this inturn should create customer loyalty. If we all stick together we could infact drive the prices down here
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: clinton on January 17, 2011, 07:12:06 pm
Sounds a good idea monty and am sure you would have a good few clients form here for a start too.

Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Shaun_Ashmore on January 17, 2011, 07:17:09 pm
I was thinking about this topic today and was thinking like a customer may think here goes,

"can I have my 3pc suite cleaned a pack of pork sausage please" ;D

Shaun
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 07:19:40 pm
I wonder if they will get double points?
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 07:20:14 pm
To be onest I was thinking of rounding up about 20-50 of us and each throwing in equal amounts and all becoming equal share holders importing the stuff, and we become our own supplier, and the supplier to others. When you really think about it.... not that hard to sort out.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: jasonl on January 17, 2011, 07:23:59 pm
...And dont forget my clubcard points .

Tesco sub out all non core services, insurance is with aviva, mobile is with voda, credit card is with lloyds , etc , transport is done by Stobart , would not be any different with carpet cleaning.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 07:26:27 pm
possibly go to that chemy dry thingy or is it dry chemy clean
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on January 17, 2011, 10:23:31 pm
If everybody was happy there would be nothing to talk about.

Except  committing suicide because you are the only one who is not
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Shaun_Ashmore on January 17, 2011, 10:31:26 pm
I remember a few years ago some cleaners decided what they wanted from the US then put a shopping list together and then found a supplier that sold or could supply it all, how it landed in the UK and got distributed I have no idea, if I remember the £ to $ was the same as it is now.

Shaun
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Doctor Carpet (Ret'd) on January 17, 2011, 10:39:35 pm
I remember a few years ago some cleaners decided what they wanted from the US then put a shopping list together and then found a supplier that sold or could supply it all, how it landed in the UK and got distributed I have no idea, if I remember the £ to $ was the same as it is now.

Shaun

Sounds like they were hoping to make a CLEAN break from UK manufacturers :o

Rog
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Jamie Pearson on January 17, 2011, 10:43:07 pm
From America it's less than $480 inc shipping.
That's approx £263 + £37 shipping = $300

Add import duty and VAT to that too.

I bought a load of snowboard gear a couple of years back.
Was saving a fortune basically the £ price was what it was in $
Got a card from Parcel Force to say that I needed to collect from delivery office.
Stung for best part of £200 before they would hand it over.
Ended up being close to the £ price after it all.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 10:47:15 pm
I have already spoke to these http://www.pmftools.com/index.php
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Shaun_Ashmore on January 17, 2011, 10:49:06 pm
You get vat on items wherever you buy from. Roger the 'deal' was done I think by Martin Lightbown I think probably 5 years ago.

Shaun
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: John Kelly on January 17, 2011, 10:49:44 pm
It all sounds great until you actually start doing it. The carriage and finance charges are the killer. Its fine when you are just bringing the odd item over but when you start to bring more stuff the costs start to rack up.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on January 17, 2011, 10:52:28 pm
get the numbers right and anything works
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Shaun_Ashmore on January 17, 2011, 10:57:32 pm
It's that and the hassle, who wants to run it? delivered to an address in a crate or box then individually packaged to new owner with added carriage which then saves you absolutely nowt, if you do it the best thing to do contact John then if there's a big enough order from everyone then arrange a suitable discount with him, I'm sure if there's enough in it for everyone it would work out best for all.

Shaun
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on January 18, 2011, 01:05:47 am
Your right about the equipment prices Monty.
Been looking at buying a new Drymaster tool.
£480 including "the dreaded" over here.

From America it's less than $480 inc shipping.
That's approx £263 + £37 shipping = $300
Know where I'll be buying.

John

thought you also had import tax plus vat
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Simon Gerrard on January 18, 2011, 08:12:21 am
Anyone, including Tesco, who is prepared to market carpet cleaning services on a national basis can only be a good thing for all of us, in my view. Our industry only serves around 20% of the population, if that were to increase by only a few percent then we would all benefit. One reason why the market in the US is so big is that it was mass marketed by huge corporations that used national TV ads to create awareness and yes, it benefitted the advertisers but it also benefitted the whole industry. I was there in the 1980's and visted companies that even back then had 10 truck mounts all fully booked and going out, not just to clean a lounge carpet, but all of the house and furniture with job tickets of $150 (a lot of money back then) It is awareness that we are short of in this country and just as in this topic there will be people who get the exposure to carpet cleaning marketing but think negatively about Tesco but still have the urge to have their carpets cleaned, that's where we come in.

Simon
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: robert meldrum on January 18, 2011, 08:24:19 am
I'd forgotten that Sears were a major player in the carpet cleaning industry across the pond .
I have'nt checked for a while but I believe they offer low cost services to consumers and have a pretty big share of the market.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 18, 2011, 08:34:41 am
Anyone, including Tesco, who is prepared to market carpet cleaning services on a national basis can only be a good thing for all of us, in my view. Our industry only serves around 20% of the population, if that were to increase by only a few percent then we would all benefit. One reason why the market in the US is so big is that it was mass marketed by huge corporations that used national TV ads to create awareness and yes, it benefitted the advertisers but it also benefitted the whole industry. I was there in the 1980's and visted companies that even back then had 10 truck mounts all fully booked and going out, not just to clean a lounge carpet, but all of the house and furniture with job tickets of $150 (a lot of money back then) It is awareness that we are short of in this country and just as in this topic there will be people who get the exposure to carpet cleaning marketing but think negatively about Tesco but still have the urge to have their carpets cleaned, that's where we come in.

Simon

I agree and yes they do offer double points, look at the new Tesco Tyres Site, it would be the same for Soft Furnishings.
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: JandS on January 18, 2011, 10:06:46 am
The price I posted was the final price including carriage.

John
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: Hilton on January 18, 2011, 12:17:01 pm
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8772335.Tesco_helps_in_the_home/?ref=twt


Take a look here;
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: seamus campbell on January 18, 2011, 12:48:16 pm
You really are determined to depress yourself,  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tesco Home Services, should you be concerned?
Post by: jasonl on January 18, 2011, 01:55:23 pm
,,The key phrase in that article  "clear and fair pricing"    A carpet cleaner is not worth as much as £100 per hour , neither is a carpet cleaner worth as little as  £ 10 an hour , customers want clarity and fairness in pricing  , and that is what Tescos are good at , along with some smoke and mirrors in ther 3 for £4 offers , 3 for price of 2 etc.