Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: steve123 on December 18, 2010, 08:46:37 am
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I have a heater element fitted to my tank which heats my water to about 60'c so thought i was "winter proof"
However I could not have been more wrong.
Sure I can clean the windows and rinse them so I have technicaly done my job, but when working in these very cold temperatures, before the window has had chance to dry it freezes. So the customer is often left with a window they can not see out of.
If I were the customer this would not be acceptable.
So my conclusion is having hot water is a total waste of time and money.
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if water is freezing on the windows whether you use hot, cold or indifferent, you should not be window cleaning. It is too cold.
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Which is why I say there is a very small margin where hot comes into its own - probably somewhere between minus two and minus four I would guess.
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like helen said, if the water is freezing on the glass then it is time to go home, or trad if your desperate
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I have a heater element fitted to my tank which heats my water to about 60'c so thought i was "winter proof"
However I could not have been more wrong.
Hot water does freeze quicker than cold
Sure I can clean the windows and rinse them so I have technicaly done my job, but when working in these very cold temperatures, before the window has had chance to dry it freezes. So the customer is often left with a window they can not see out of.
If I were the customer this would not be acceptable.
So my conclusion is having hot water is a total waste of time and money.
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I have a heater element fitted to my tank which heats my water to about 60'c so thought i was "winter proof"
However I could not have been more wrong.
Hot water does freeze quicker than cold
Sure I can clean the windows and rinse them so I have technicaly done my job, but when working in these very cold temperatures, before the window has had chance to dry it freezes. So the customer is often left with a window they can not see out of.
If I were the customer this would not be acceptable.
So my conclusion is having hot water is a total waste of time and money.
Yes I had heard that, but surley that is not the point. Whether it freezes quickly or slowly, if the end result is a pane of glass coverd in ice, (even if its clean) then this is not acceptable to the customer.
All hot water does is allow us to say we did the job and grab the money. Oh and sorry about not being able to see out of your windows for a few days.
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Have a little faith,.. when the window defrosts it'll be clean,... :)
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Have a little faith,.. when the window defrosts it'll be clean,... :)
Yes I am sure it will be, the water that is freezing is pure and clean and therefore will still be when it thaws.
My worry is leaving them in that state, If the temp does not rise for a week the window will be frozen for the entire time.
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All hot water does is allow us to say we did the job and grab the money. Oh and sorry about not being able to see out of your windows for a few days.
That is a very naive view of using hot water for window cleaning.
Yesterday me and the chap that works with me were out working. I have an L5 running for myself, he doesnt. Guess which system froze and the water wasnt freezing on the glass.
Because we have been able to work this week I have had the best week window cleaning in 13 years of being self-employed.
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All hot water does is allow us to say we did the job and grab the money. Oh and sorry about not being able to see out of your windows for a few days.
That is a very naive view of using hot water for window cleaning.
Yesterday me and the chap that works with me were out working. I have an L5 running for myself, he doesnt. Guess which system froze and the water wasnt freezing on the glass.
Because we have been able to work this week I have had the best week window cleaning in 13 years of being self-employed.
Matt I understand what you are saying, I guess it depends on temp difference, perhaps where you are the temps were not as low as I have in my area this week.
It does not alter the fact that I had hot water, I cleaned the glass. and 10 minutes later the water that was left behind froze.
If that was happeining to your jobs what would you do?
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Hot water does freeze quicker than cold
Bored of saying this, but this is only true under VERY specific cicrumstances - in tall, narrow cylinders, typically - that don't apply to the way you use hot water in WFP.
Keep repeating it though and it might come true just for you.
Vin
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If the water is freezing in one big sheet on the windows I would prob pack in for the day,.. personally this has only ever happened to me once though,.. normally the worst I get is a few frozen droplets that don't look any worse than a wet window.
But I think there's a good few degrees of temp between when a cold system freezes & when hot water freezes on the glass,.. if it keeps you working until the weather is genuinely extreme then surely its a good thing?
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perfect windows, excuse my ignorance.
So your saying this hot water freezing quicker than cold only applies in test tubes?
Nat, i know you have hot water system, you posted last year i think, what was the temp the water has to be in relation to outside temp to prevnt cracking glass?
thanks lee
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Sorry vin i have to disagree - hot water spread thinly over glass seems to freeze pretty instanly when i have used cold and
it has not. i think there is a temprature band where you can hot wfp over cold BUT as you finish and the water rinses down
it will freeze leaving the windows frosted over ( and i know from reli's that have just had theirs done - they are not happy )
I dont use hot WFP but i have used hot (50 deg) water to trad, and before you get the blade on its frozen. so wfp will be the same good while applying then freeze - i'm sure the windows will be good - logic dictates this but customers sometimes have
enough problrms wfp never mind frozen windows that will then thaw clean.
i'm still looking into hot for next year, but not decided on other factors like the freezing after i've finished and the ice that will form on paths etc...
Darran
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All hot water does is allow us to say we did the job and grab the money. Oh and sorry about not being able to see out of your windows for a few days.
That is a very naive view of using hot water for window cleaning.
Yesterday me and the chap that works with me were out working. I have an L5 running for myself, he doesnt. Guess which system froze and the water wasnt freezing on the glass.
Because we have been able to work this week I have had the best week window cleaning in 13 years of being self-employed.
It does not alter the fact that I had hot water, I cleaned the glass. and 10 minutes later the water that was left behind froze.
If that was happeining to your jobs what would you do?
IF that was happening to me I would go home too. But the impression of what you were saying was that hot is pointless, end of! And it isnt that simple. 90% of the time hot enables me to work when otherwise I owuldn't have been able to.
Hot water does freeze quicker than cold
Bored of saying this, but this is only true under VERY specific cicrumstances - in tall, narrow cylinders, typically - that don't apply to the way you use hot water in WFP.
Keep repeating it though and it might come true just for you.
Vin
Correct, which is a novelty ;D
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perfect windows, excuse my ignorance.
So your saying this hot water freezing quicker than cold only applies in test tubes?
Nat, i know you have hot water system, you posted last year i think, what was the temp the water has to be in relation to outside temp to prevnt cracking glass?
thanks lee
I try to keep the hot water about 20C above ambient in this weather,.. hardly even lukewarm to be honest, but its enough to stop the hoses & jets freezing & let me keep working. In summer I'd happily use it at 50C,.. but in winter I'm very cautious. I've never cracked a window yet.
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having a hot system is pointless i have been using cold and i dont see a advantage to change and pay more money for more to go wrong for no advantage
in winter hot systems have no advantage over cold
1 water will still freeze on glass
2 water will still freeze on the floor
3 hot water freezes faster than cold water
so any one with a hot system no better off than anyone with a cold system
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thanks very much for the ino Nat, what's it like in your part of the world, weather wise?
thanks lee
Ps. merry xmas ;)
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hot nots pointless
but it is pointless using it all the time
in the summer cold water systems water
will be warmer than those using hot in the winter ::)
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perfect windows, excuse my ignorance.
So your saying this hot water freezing quicker than cold only applies in test tubes?
Not just test tubes; tall buckets of water will do the job.
Vin
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I think these people who keep saying hot water still freezes on glass needs to come out with me for a day as I'm sure you will change your minds.
I worked until 4,10pm yesterday using hot and it never and has never frozen on the glass.
but to be honest I have never worked in temps like what their experiencing up in scotland but have worked in -5 with no problems.
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Worked yesterday and the only time water (warm) froze on the glass was on an unheated porch.
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I think the best way of saying it is- hot water can freeze quicker than cold, not does.
There are so many variables to this; most of which don`t matter when it comes to cleaning windows.
I think people should concentrate on what happens when cleaning windows and tell of their experiences.
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having a hot system is pointless i have been using cold and i dont see a advantage to change and pay more money for more to go wrong for no advantage
in winter hot systems have no advantage over cold
1 water will still freeze on glass
2 water will still freeze on the floor
3 hot water freezes faster than cold water
so any one with a hot system no better off than anyone with a cold system
I had 2 out with hot, 2 with cold on Thursday.
The guys with hot did 75% day, no freezing on glass (except a conservatory or 2)
The guys with cold did nowt.
1. The water is less likely to freeze on the glass (the warm water takes the chill off the glass)
2. Salt
3. This is not true if you are referring to cold water which is almost at freezing point in the first place.
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http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/PhysFAQ/General/hot_water.html
The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect. Because, no doubt, most readers are extremely skeptical at this point, we should begin by stating precisely what we mean by the Mpemba effect. We start with two containers of water, which are identical in shape, and which hold identical amounts of water. The only difference between the two is that the water in one is at a higher (uniform) temperature than the water in the other. Now we cool both containers, using the exact same cooling process for each container. Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first. If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect. Of course, the initially warmer water will not freeze before the initially cooler water for all initial conditions. If the hot water starts at 99.9°C, and the cold water at 0.01°C, then clearly under those circumstances, the initially cooler water will freeze first. However, under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first -- if that happens, you have seen the Mpemba effect. But you will not see the Mpemba effect for just any initial temperatures, container shapes, or cooling conditions.
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You`re right Form B, we could be here all day using different scenarios.
Now, that is pointless ::).
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thanks very much for the ino Nat, what's it like in your part of the world, weather wise?
thanks lee
Ps. merry xmas ;)
Its better here (Cork, Ireland) than a lot of you guys in the UK have had it. The coldest I've worked in this year is -5,... but to be honest its never been the working temp that has stopped me cleaning windows,.. its when the driving conditions get too bad that I pack it in.
I put down loads of salt (Dishwasher salt is very cheap from Lidl), work fast & am careful not to splash water where its not salted. I have aquarium heaters in my static tank & a fan heater in my van at night,.. good gloves & hat,.. and despite the weather I am still on target to have EVERY pre-xmas job completed by the 23rd,... Hot definitely pays for itself,..
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I have a heater element fitted to my tank which heats my water to about 60'c so thought i was "winter proof"
However I could not have been more wrong.
Sure I can clean the windows and rinse them so I have technicaly done my job, but when working in these very cold temperatures, before the window has had chance to dry it freezes. So the customer is often left with a window they can not see out of.
If I were the customer this would not be acceptable.
So my conclusion is having hot water is a total waste of time and money.
I agree that hot water is not the all encompassing solution to cleaning windows in sub zero conditions that I had hoped it would be.
It definitely gives you more opportunity to work, where work would otherwise be impossible though.
Not sure where the cut off point is but we have worked in around -4 without too much issue, I think any colder will be pushing it though.
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having a hot system is pointless i have been using cold and i dont see a advantage to change and pay more money for more to go wrong for no advantage
in winter hot systems have no advantage over cold
1 water will still freeze on glass
2 water will still freeze on the floor
3 hot water freezes faster than cold water
so any one with a hot system no better off than anyone with a cold system
Im finding the naivety of the lads in this thread nothing short of mind blowing!
im not even going to lower myself to the depths of even trying and educate the cold water lads here, as i think you seem to have made your somewhat jeleous minds up!
In a post 3 weeks back i stated that every other window cleaning company in my home town( no fewer that 12) were unable to work due to snow and sub zero temperatures yet us Clear View Professinal Window Cleaners with our hot water Thermopure machine completed the weeks programme of work and even started on the following mondays schedule.
I was filled pride when we received a phone call form a certain contracts manager passing on his tennats sincere thanks for continuing with scheduled clean for that week in the snowy and frosty condtions and extended thanks for gritting all paths and doorways after window cleaning had finished.
So the gentlemen un decided and in my honest opinion naively blinkerd to the benifits of hot water wfp.............please do the simple maths and try to cast aside the derogatory comments and immature mindset that you have somewhat adopted without conclusive evidence that hot water is no better than cold
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And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere. It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it. Some good things and some bad.
It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...
Vin
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And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere. It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it. Some good things and some bad.
It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...
Vin
Great post "perfect" i could not agree more...............pure water is pure water be it hot or cold
my issue here is the fact that some lads will not be aducated to the fact you can work in lower temps with hot water
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Thanks, Nathanael Jones
Nat what is your setup themopure or just aquatic heater in tank in van? at home?
would be intrested to know what heater you have for your water; i have static 625 ltr tank at my parents place and use freedom trolley and barrels.
Nat
stevenpaulmatthews
and other hot water guys
thanks for your posts, its nice to hear from people with real experience, i will have to do something for next year.
Luckily where i live it's not been too bad,
having said that it is now snowing heavy and i'm sure that's me done til 2011 :'(
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And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere. It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it. Some good things and some bad.
It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...
Vin
Completely right. Very often its black or white, either/or.
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@ Lee,
I'm using a modified L5 heater at the moment,.. but I'm waiting for a sample of a heater from china that has been built to my specs with wfp in mind, hopefully I'll be using this from the new year on if it lives up to the manufacturers promises (and its CE marked!). You could use a gas heater to heat the water as you fill your barrels (a bigger one than an L5 or you'd be all day filling!) and get a taste of warm WFP.
I also have aquarium heaters in my static tank,.. I fill my van tank in the evening & the residual heat helps keep the whole van frost free overnight.
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Lee where are you based mate as it not been to bad here either 5inches of snow at the most
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Thanks Nat
Hi stevenpaulmatthews, i'm in waltham abbey essex junction 26 off M25, snow here saturday started about 12.30pm i'd say a few inches now :'(
I fear this maybe my last entry, God bless you all
;D
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Thanks for the replies everyone, its been a long while since I was on here but I guess desparation drew me back as the cold weather is really affecting things for me.
I still have mixed feelings but am willing to try again.
My worry is still the same though, what is happening to the windows after I leave the job and go onto the next one?
I have to do something to get out of the house, the wife is driving me crazy!!! ;D
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My worry is still the same though, what is happening to the windows after I leave the job and go onto the next one?
If the house is heated then the water won't freeze on the glass unless its extremely cold outside,.. I've worked in -5 no problem. Unheated conservatories etc should be avoided though.
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like helen said ;D simple
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Worked friday with hot water, -2 all day....
no freezing on glass, and salted in all the right places,
my reels were warm, my fittings were warm, my van was warm
hoses were supple, and did not freeze whilst extended and sitting in snow,
had a good days wage,
hot water is not pointless in my opinion.
not if you earn a wage, and it dont freeze on glass as much as some will say, dont forget if the house is heated it will be fine also.
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Yes having hot water is pointless if you cant get out of your street,But if you can get out then hot/warm can make the differences from being skint and putting food on the table.
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Yes having hot water is pointless if you cant get out of your street,But if you can get out then hot/warm can make the differences from being skint and putting food on the table.
It`s still not pointless. There are still many good points to hot even if you can`t use it.
A cold system isn`t pointless if you can`t get to work is it?
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@ Lee,
I'm using a modified L5 heater at the moment,.. but I'm waiting for a sample of a heater from china that has been built to my specs with wfp in mind, hopefully I'll be using this from the new year on if it lives up to the manufacturers promises (and its CE marked!). You could use a gas heater to heat the water as you fill your barrels (a bigger one than an L5 or you'd be all day filling!) and get a taste of warm WFP.
I also have aquarium heaters in my static tank,.. I fill my van tank in the evening & the residual heat helps keep the whole van frost free overnight.
Nat, you need to be careful with the CE marking. You cannot accept that the chinese factory did th marking, they are not responsible for it. As the first importer intot eh EU, you are responsible for the heater conforming to the CE specification. If anything happened and you couldn't prove you had it tested and it passed you are the one in the s hi t not the chinese factory.
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Yes having hot water is pointless if you cant get out of your street,But if you can get out then hot/warm can make the differences from being skint and putting food on the table.
It`s still not pointless. There are still many good points to hot even if you can`t use it.
A cold system isn`t pointless if you can`t get to work is it?
interesting point Griffin,having any system whether it's ladder n bucket or the latest Hot wash WFP if you cant get to the work its all pointless but hot is useful for first cleans,birds muck and cleans quicker than cold.I know if I get out tomorrow I will use warm water and I know using cold will be problematic.
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@ Lee,
I'm using a modified L5 heater at the moment,.. but I'm waiting for a sample of a heater from china that has been built to my specs with wfp in mind, hopefully I'll be using this from the new year on if it lives up to the manufacturers promises (and its CE marked!). You could use a gas heater to heat the water as you fill your barrels (a bigger one than an L5 or you'd be all day filling!) and get a taste of warm WFP.
I also have aquarium heaters in my static tank,.. I fill my van tank in the evening & the residual heat helps keep the whole van frost free overnight.
Nat, you need to be careful with the CE marking. You cannot accept that the chinese factory did th marking, they are not responsible for it. As the first importer intot eh EU, you are responsible for the heater conforming to the CE specification. If anything happened and you couldn't prove you had it tested and it passed you are the one in the s hi t not the chinese factory.
Very true,.. I'll be taking steps to verify their certificate & make sure this heater meets the right standards. Its a much slower & more complicated process than I had imagined,... on the plus side it is a nice shiny stainless steel one with LCD screen etc,.. :)
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just a little point i like to say iam having more problems with newly fitted energy saviing windows freezing up,this is with a cold water wfp and also trad with warm water..
this is on houses that are heated.done two houses the other week both next door to one and other,same style everything the same,but the difference was that the second house had new fitted energy saving window at the back of the house.
1 frooze the other didnt.now this we tried with cold water wfp,which one???
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if pointless means we are able to go out to work and the cold water lads are not then that will do for us.................we are pointless and our company is aswell
im confident in my driving in on any ice road be it -10 and a road 3 inches thick with ice, i know im a talented enough driver
hot water allows us to work in this weather where as cold will not and has not in the past
im not the sort of man that will sit here and blow smoke up your backsides just because we have paid 8K for a thermopure system, if the machine was crap id tell you straight up to stop you guys wasting your hard earned cash
now i have enough of sayin hot is better that cold i will not comment on any hot water topic again for the simple reason being i know hot water is betther than cold
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I find it hard to believe people reckon they cant get out their street. I have a shovel and bucket of grit in my van and have used it many times over the last few weeks
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If you cant get out of your street....but eventually do........ you sure as hell aint going to get on anyone elses street to work!!!
;)
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Just a thought HOT/COLD its still going to freezeon the floor,GRIT you say.Ok grit customer gets home slips/falls walks grit into the house,sees your ticket/invioce.
Next to court,if you put grit down you change the condition on the floor,its your fault from a legal piont of view.
Sometimes you have to take a loss,or take a risk. Just a thought THANKS :-\
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Some people just don't want to know
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Pointless today!
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you put grit down you change the condition on the floor,its your fault from a legal piont of view.
Very true!
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It was not "pointless for us today" worked in -8 full days work done £300+
happy days
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you put grit down you change the condition on the floor,its your fault from a legal piont of view.
Very true!
And why is salt spread on the roads?
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Next to court,if you put grit down you change the condition on the floor,
Very true, and generally for the better mate.
its your fault from a legal piont of view.
If you cant spread salt on someones path to stop the water freezing you need to stay indoors mate, all year round. You're no doubt a liability to yourself if youre not capable of that.
One job springs to mind that I did last Friday. We'd finished the job. I knocked on the door. The lady came out and paid and thanked us. I then on leaving informed her that we had spread salt about where the water we had used had found its way onto her paths.
She looked at me and thanked me for my consideration and suggested that we were very considerate. Maybe we were, but it doesnt take a dunderhead to be able to spread a few handfuls of salt.
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It always amazes me who people will argue till they are blue in the face about something they have no personal experience of.
Just like many others on here I have mo personal hands on experience of using Hot or wam water for WFP, so all I can do is surmise what will be.
I am in the process of going the immersion heater route, initially to heat up the water over night so it will act like a storage heater...not that I have any intention of having it waste heat warming the back of the van...what a waste!!
My van tank will be heavily insulated and boxed in, The DI cannister, pump and so on incorporated too.
With a separate section of of boxed insulation for the hose reel and pole hose.
The plan is to pull out the hose reels and whatever prior to starting work close off its insulated housing from van tank.
Whilst working with hot water the hoses and so on should be fine as warm water will passing though them keeping everything in a working condition.
Overnight the water in the van tank should still be pretty warm (I hope) providing I've done a top job with insulating the tank, the immersion heater should not need turning on for anything like as long in a poorly insulated tank.
I'd be extremely disappointed if I open the back doors of the van in the morning to find it like a sauna :'(
Its a cheap way of testing out the merits of hot water window cleaning.
If it feels like a good bet, then I'll be looking at the cost of a small generator that is capable of running at 3kw.
If that is too expensive I'd look at getting something along the lines of Peter Fogwill 's Hot water system, Primarily with the idea of heating the water in the van tank rather than as an on demand system.
All of the above might be changed at a moments notice too!
All I can do at the moment is surmise as best I can...
If, for a relatively small outlay I can work when I might otherwise not be able too then it will be money well spent.
If water in my tank doesn't freeze, hoses do no freeze, water jets don't ice up and the bristlles on the brush also remain unfrozen, then that will do as a minimum.
In future winters my van will be fully insulated, ditto my production unit at home...I'll be properly winter-proofed, and that alone will be a godsend all of its own, because...boy!...this winter has been one hassle after another and I don't want to go through this again in a hurry that's for sure.
So cold water only guys, don't dismiss out of hand what you know nothing about, without at least trying it out for yourselves first!
Ian
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I wouldn't want grit all up my path. Horrible stuff, and often skiddy in it's own right, like little marbles.
I don't believe hot systems are worth it either, just for a couple of weeks a year.
In fact, this is unusual. Some winters we get about 4 or 5 frosts altogether!
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It was not "pointless for us today" worked in -8 full days work done £300+
happy days
how did you work in -8?sounds great if you can without the water freezing on the glass or jets!! ;D ;D ;D
i can understand the water not freezing in the hose or jets using warm water but surely itll just turn to ice on the windows when you ve finished rinsing?or are you not bothered if it does and just thinking about the money and sod the customers sheet of ice on the windows? ;D ;D
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i can understand the water not freezing in the hose or jets using warm water but surely itll just turn to ice on the windows when you ve finished rinsing?or are you not bothered if it does and just thinking about the money and sod the customers sheet of ice on the windows? ;D ;D
Daz, there's some absolute toilet written on here mate!
It's just about trad-able if you can safely put a ladder up, but wfp? Nah. ;)
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You'd consider using a ladder in these conditions?
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Ian, that's a great idea apart from the generator bit. 3000w is a lot of power - you won't get a small generator to power that. It would need to be a large one that you can hardly lift on your own.
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You'd consider using a ladder in these conditions?
If there's no ice under it and it's not snowing, yes.
I did this morning for the first job.
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You'd consider using a ladder in these conditions?
If there's no ice under it and it's not snowing, yes.
I did this morning for the first job.
in the past i have used ladders in these conditions, i always used spikes but they are not made right now a spike when fitted shouldnt run at the same angle as the style rather when the ladder is positioned at correct angle the spike should run vertical this makes them much more effective also if its solid ice throw a damp scrim down and put spikes on this, i wouldnt recomend anyone doing this with current health and safety regs but in past i used 40 and 60 foot ladders like this without incident or feeling unsafe.
in 1963 the weather was like now from november till march and my dad kept workong right through using spikes, he cleaned the windows using a mop and scrim but sprinkled them with meths to stop water freezing bare in mind not many had central heating then so windows froze much more easily, during that winter his hands got massive cracks in due to cold weather and ringing his mop and scrim out on a couple of occasions he stitched these cracks on hands up when he got home to stop them opening up any more.
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Warm/hot water.
There are a few people who will not try anything new, don't want to be reminded that they won't try anything new and despite having no evidence or experience of it they maintain that the new thing won't work.
Well, I have spent less than a hundred pounds insulating my van tank, my IBC and getting heating that will raise the water temp. about fifteen degrees.
I have found that in the -1 to -5 band where most of our daytime winter temperature seems to reside that I can work. Whereas before warming my water a little I would stop at -1 or -2.
So I have found that over the last few weeks I have earned twice as much as I believe I would have had I lived with water at four degrees (or frozen) in my tank.
This is borne out by the experience of another windy I know who has no heating or insulation and who surprised himself to find his water as a 1000L block of ice and a 400L block of ice and hasn't worked for three weeks.
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Well, I have spent less than a hundred pounds insulating my van tank, my IBC and getting heating that will raise the water temp. about fifteen degrees.
How do you keep your water warm once you're out then? It'll still freeze.
Hose connections are metal and laying them in snow freezes them.
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Me thinks some people with hot systems are a little touchy!
as earlier i believe hot has a place and that it will help in the bordline temps of +1 to around -2 beyond this
i agree you can clean but as you finish rinsing it will freeze, now this may or may not worry you as a windy but does it upset the custy ?
For those who are ingenius/brave enough to do DIY hot the outlay is more than worth the flexability gained, but paying out 4k or more well thats not for me.
Mr Giles - came across a few threads on the immersion heater, and i must say i like it, even more than an L5 option, but how do you feel about the point raised on earthing the system and that the heater unit is not waterproof should the tank leak ?
Darran
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Well, I have spent less than a hundred pounds insulating my van tank, my IBC and getting heating that will raise the water temp. about fifteen degrees.
How do you keep your water warm once you're out then? It'll still freeze.
Hose connections are metal and laying them in snow freezes them.
My van tank is insulated and so water leaves it at 15 - 17 degrees. Even at the end of the day when I have less than a hundred litres it is above 10 - 12 degrees. My metal hose connections do not touch the ground and the water at the brush-head instead of being about 1 or 2 degrees or freezing is a few degrees warmer. I certainly don't leave my hoses out and sometimes will reel in between jobs that I wouldn't need to if the weather had been warmer.
It's slower, what with putting down salt and sweeping away standing water - but I earn.
All for less than a hundred quid and about £2 a day (12 hours switched on) in electricity.
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I have got peter's heater and flue, and mushroom vent also propane regulator. Will start fitting it tomorrow, the roof vent will not be nice to fit as there is snow all on the roof.
I will take some photo's and post when done.
Roy
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My van tank is insulated and so water leaves it at 15 - 17 degrees.
And how is your tank heated in the first place?
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If you cant spread salt on someones path to stop the water freezing you need to stay indoors mate, all year round. You're no doubt a liability to yourself if youre not capable of that.
One job springs to mind that I did last Friday. We'd finished the job. I knocked on the door. The lady came out and paid and thanked us. I then on leaving informed her that we had spread salt about where the water we had used had found its way onto her paths.
She looked at me and thanked me for my consideration and suggested that we were very considerate. Maybe we were, but it doesnt take a dunderhead to be able to spread a few handfuls of salt.
Matt it maybe different if you tell a customer that you have put salt/grit down but if you do it and they dont know, and they come home and slip and fall you will be liable that is( fact)
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I worked a full day today,.. only earned €230 though. It was -7 when I started and never got above -2 all day.
I won't lie, it was a tough day and I did have a little trouble with hoses freezing on the first job until the hot water got through,.. but after the first 5 mins everything went like clockwork. I used loads of salt (I prefer it to grit because there's no dirty residue when everything has melted,.. it just dissolves to nothing) under every window, and I chose my work carefully, but I got everything done that I wanted to. The salt is very effective,.. I have passed some jobs a few hours later & could see the snow & ice completely gone from the footpaths.
My biggest challenge was defrosting my transfer hose when I got home so I could re-fill the van ready for tomorrow.
There is no way I could have worked today with a cold system,.. so in just this one day my heater has more than paid for itself (again).
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HI MATT just to let you know if you change the condition of the floor you are at fault if anyone falls.
If you salt/grit your/any path the postman/anyone falls on that path its your fault.
NO point getting the hump with me,i dont care if you do it or not your risk,i am not against hot wfp
but putting salt/grit does have problems.You work hard all year not lose it in court because a customer slipped
on thier path you put salt on,maybe in your world nobody would take you to court holding your ticket/invioce date
on it,report from hospital, bad back,brokern leg,wanting a payday in court. LUCKY YOU
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It's pointless going on, it's just burning fuel.
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Matt it maybe different if you tell a customer that you have put salt/grit down but if you do it and they dont know, and they come home and slip and fall you will be liable that is( fact)
I'm sorry but as I understand it when you spread salt it prevents water from freezing.
There are some people on here that for some reason ignore the laws of science and physics. Do you know why the council spreads salt on the roads. I believe if it works for them it'll also work for me.
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Darren 70 what happened to the snow on the path the last time you spread salt on it?
The Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 Section 3 clearly states that the employer owes a duty of care to all those affected by their work.
If an accident occurs as a result of slipping on ice for example, an injured party could prosecute.
If an employer has made an effort to manage the forseeable risk by gritting/sweeping away snow and ice then this will be looked on more favourably than if no effort was made.
There is no hard and fast rule about whether clearing or nor clearing gives rise to the greater risk of being sued.
Wherever you have a duty to manage risks and fail to do so there is a good chance that if someone is hurt as a result of your omission you will be sued. If the iced area is under your control then you have a duty to assess the risk and decide what reasonable management action is required. Deciding not to do something because you might not do it perfectly could indeed be a reasonable argument, but only if an imperfect job presented a greater risk than not doing anything. If you record that logic in your risk assessment then perhaps you can have that extra cup of tea. But wait! You would also have to record good cause to believe you could not reduce the risk. e.g. you have no arms or e.g. the salt in your salt bin had been stolen by the local authority. Without this evidence of reduced capability it will be apparent to everyone that you were just avoiding taking action. Have the phone number of your lawyer handy.
Deciding not to do something you could reasonably do to reduce risk, just because you might be sued, would be one of the most unconvincing arguments ever to appear in law. Good luck with that.
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MATT i am not saying your wrong,just that putting salt/grit does have its problems,it shouldnt happen but it can and is your fault if it does. Just because you dont like it ,does not make it untrue.
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MATT i am not saying your wrong,just that putting salt/grit does have its problems,it shouldnt happen but it can and is your fault if it does. Just because you dont like it ,does not make it untrue.
Could you elaborate on that, just what problems does salting cause?
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I can tell you what'll happen if you don't put any salt down if you like
;D
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I can tell you what'll happen if you don't put any salt down if you like
;D
I already know that ;D
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I have read on a council website or two (whilst googleing salt suppliers), that it is highly unlikely that you will get sued for clearing snow/ice, in fact they encourage it.
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I have read on a council website or two (whilst googleing salt suppliers), that it is highly unlikely that you will get sued for clearing snow/ice, in fact they encourage it.
yep ours is encouraging it as well as doing the road in front if you can and elderly neighbours.
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Hi
The problem is that by salt/gritting you are changing the condition of the floor and it would be your fault if anyone slips on that floor.I am not saying to work and not spread salt/grit just that you change the condition of the floor its your fault.by useing wfp your changing the condition aswell.
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Darren, you still haven't told me what happens when you put salt on an icey path.
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Hi
The problem is that by salt/gritting you are changing the condition of the floor and it would be your fault if anyone slips on that floor.I am not saying to work and not spread salt/grit just that you change the condition of the floor its your fault.by useing wfp your changing the condition aswell.
darren are you a lawyer. ::) ::)
has anybody you know been sued,NO
GET REAL ;D
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Yeah, take it with a pinch of sodium chloride.
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MATT yes the ice will melt,and nobody should fall/slip your right,nobody sues anybody its a perfect world.I never said its wrong to work and to salt/grit it was just a piont veiw but you seem a bit on the defence on this piont which is fine.
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ive never put salt or grit down . and ive only had 3 custys slip and break bones . one was a pensioner who broke her hip and collar bone . i dont think thats bad going in nearly 30 years
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ive never put salt or grit down . and ive only had 3 custys slip and break bones . one was a pensioner who broke her hip and collar bone . i dont think thats bad going in nearly 30 years
That'll save the Dept of Pensions a few bob in pension and the NHS a few bob keeping her alive then eh Barry! ;D
To Squeaky>
I warm the water in my van tank by having in it a 300w aquarium heater set to 20 degrees C which gets switched on every evening. Also it gets filled with water from my warmed IBC first.