[Rob Hall]

Where do you advertise?
Do you know how much business you get from your Website?
Where do you consider the best place to advertise is?
There will probably be some on here that do not need to advertise, but maybe still have a website?

[Rob Hall]

Just a quick 'Thank You' to our first 5 viewers, obviously can't be ars@d to contribute, or are far too busy doing their next advert . And I thought this was meant to be an helpful forum, its a shame it is not possible to see who visits each thread. I would equally ignore their requests too.

[Jamie Pearson]

For floorcare work we find its more about networking with suppliers and installers as they are usually the first people to either needs problems sorted or the place the customer comes too when the off the shelf maintenance product no longer works.

For our wood floor sanding work Yell.com works out at about £5 a lead which isnt far off Adwords for same service. That said we get almost double the amount of leads from the above for the same service.

[Rob Hall]

For floorcare work we find its more about networking with suppliers and installers as they are usually the first people to either needs problems sorted or the place the customer comes too when the off the shelf maintenance product no longer works.

For our wood floor sanding work Yell.com works out at about £5 a lead which isnt far off Adwords for same service. That said we get almost double the amount of leads from the above for the same service.

Thank you Cleaning SystemsUK, I knew it would be you who would be first with a reply. I can always rely on you. I have had about 10 views and only your reply, its a shame there isnt a private message service on here, those that CAN be bothered could stay in touch and all the hangers on can ignore each other.
To be clear, do you prefer the yell.com over adwords?
Also, do you know if there is a private messenger service on here? It does seem a shame to share such useful information with those who who take and don't contribute?

[Jamie Pearson]

I dont prefer one over the other. They both yield a good return on investment so we use them all.

The only one that hasnt really worked is a BT phone book ad. Yellow Pages still works.

I have just renewed the phone book at a much reduced cost and will give it one more year then decide to bin it. It only got us one enquiry but it turned out to be a £1200 job. The ad that year cost £400 this year its only £125 after a call from the retention team.

[Jamie Pearson]

I have to add that in our local area we have little competition for the wood floor side of things.

[Rob Hall]

I have to add that in our local area we have little competition for the wood floor side of things.

Thanks again CSUK
28 or so views and only you who can be bothered to contribute on such a useful topic, says a lot for the rest of them doesnt it?

[Denise l]

At the moment we just have our website which I can put al our latest news on, then use tags so it links into Google. I did try Yellow Pages once but only had one enquiry in a year. We buy our leads in.

Denise

[Rob Hall]

At the moment we just have our website which I can put al our latest news on, then use tags so it links into Google. I did try Yellow Pages once but only had one enquiry in a year. We buy our leads in.

Denise

Thanks, very helpful.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

You always get Lurkers and readers but then they don't reply or post.  Look at some of my posts in some cases 300+ Views and 2 replies!  It happens!  Personally I can't help because we are one of those companies that don't pay for any advertising.  I tried Yell some years ago and just ended up passing over £500 + for zilch.  When we used to advertise I found local advertising used to help such as Parish & Church Magazines and publications.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

[Graeme Smith]

For stone/hard floor cleaning+sealing advertising would be website backed with PPC in a radius of 10 -25 miles. If I was able to deliver full blown natural floor restoration i.e full lipage removal I would use PPC on a radius of up to 100 miles. All other forms of advertising seem a bit patchy at best or at worst a total waste of money.

[Rob Hall]

Rob

You always get Lurkers and readers but then they don't reply or post.  Look at some of my posts in some cases 300+ Views and 2 replies!  It happens!  Personally I can't help because we are one of those companies that don't pay for any advertising.  I tried Yell some years ago and just ended up passing over £500 + for zilch.  When we used to advertise I found local advertising used to help such as Parish & Church Magazines and publications.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

Thanks Kevin
Your reply is equally important to me.
I haven't advertised in many years, but I can feel it coming.
I have a new website coming in the next few days and would like to promote it. Does anyone know anything about adwords?

[Rob Hall]

For stone/hard floor cleaning+sealing advertising would be website backed with PPC in a radius of 10 -25 miles. If I was able to deliver full blown natural floor restoration i.e full lipage removal I would use PPC on a radius of up to 100 miles. All other forms of advertising seem a bit patchy at best or at worst a total waste of money.

Sorry for being a numpty, Graeme, what is PPC?

[Graeme Smith]

adwords is Pay Per Click or visa versa. You can spend a lot of money on it - Google loads it in favour of themselves if you ask them why you are not getting the return you want they just tell you to spend more!!
You need to tailor your campaigns carefully or its a money pit. Looking at your location you are near (ish) to Harrogate which seems a prime location for expensive floors Lapacida tiles are based there and I think there is an off shoot of people who went into the posh floor polishing market?? If you type in marble floor polishing harrogate I think they will come up. They had a look at a friend of mines floor in one of the outlying villages he did not go for the company in the end but I think they do ok. I would definately like to target that area on adwords if I were closer.

[Rob Hall]

adwords is Pay Per Click or visa versa. You can spend a lot of money on it - Google loads it in favour of themselves if you ask them why you are not getting the return you want they just tell you to spend more!!
You need to tailor your campaigns carefully or its a money pit. Looking at your location you are near (ish) to Harrogate which seems a prime location for expensive floors Lapacida tiles are based there and I think there is an off shoot of people who went into the posh floor polishing market?? If you type in marble floor polishing harrogate I think they will come up. They had a look at a friend of mines floor in one of the outlying villages he did not go for the company in the end but I think they do ok. I would definately like to target that area on adwords if I were closer.

Thank You Graeme, how much would you expect to pay for pay per click?

[Graeme Smith]

Its a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question or answer
You can set your bids manually say 1.20 per click which would get you onto page 1 for someone typing in 'marble floor cleaning' but you could only be in position 6 on the sponsored links which means you are on the right hand side of the page. if you drop down lower than position 3 enquiries drop off. So to stay in the top 3 spots you need to bid more per click - so you can see where the money pit comment came in. You can cap your budget to control to stop runaway spending but that means your disappears when your budget is spent so there's obviously no chance of enquiry after the budgets gone.
Just to make this more confusing/annoying you can sometimes get a higher position by getting a better quality score from google. If your adword advert appeared as 'marble floor cleaning' and underneath it said something like 'marble floor cleaning service Harrogate' and the advert pointed to a landing page on your website which was titled 'marble floor cleaning' and on that page all it talks about was marble floor cleaning and the website itself was called www.marblefloorcleaning.co.uk that advert will get a better quality score than a general cleaning site that just talks generally about hard floor cleaning. So you could pay less per click that a competitor but appear higher up the page.
You can make your budget go further by tailoring the key words to stop useless clicks from people seeing your add who are not really interested - they type in 'marble floor cleaning products' and your add pops up as google thinks its relevant, you get clicked on and pay £1.50 for nothing you are not selling a product you are selling a service. Put the word 'product' in as a negative keyword and hopefully you will not come up.
I have been trialling adwords and its better than most forms of general ads but it is hard to get it right I certainly have not mastered it. I guess if you ever really nail it you could just sell yourself as an Adword consultant. There seems to be quite a few web designers who offer adword campaign management I would bet money a lot do not know that much and in particular do not understand industry specific marketing. It is still trial and error for me and has not made me rich the enquiries are not coming thick and fast but I do tend to convert most I get. Its getting me off carpet & upholstery cleaning and I could do with a better website so its small steps.   

[Rob Hall]

Its a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question or answer
You can set your bids manually say 1.20 per click which would get you onto page 1 for someone typing in 'marble floor cleaning' but you could only be in position 6 on the sponsored links which means you are on the right hand side of the page. if you drop down lower than position 3 enquiries drop off. So to stay in the top 3 spots you need to bid more per click - so you can see where the money pit comment came in. You can cap your budget to control to stop runaway spending but that means your disappears when your budget is spent so there's obviously no chance of enquiry after the budgets gone.
Just to make this more confusing/annoying you can sometimes get a higher position by getting a better quality score from google. If your adword advert appeared as 'marble floor cleaning' and underneath it said something like 'marble floor cleaning service Harrogate' and the advert pointed to a landing page on your website which was titled 'marble floor cleaning' and on that page all it talks about was marble floor cleaning and the website itself was called www.marblefloorcleaning.co.uk that advert will get a better quality score than a general cleaning site that just talks generally about hard floor cleaning. So you could pay less per click that a competitor but appear higher up the page.
You can make your budget go further by tailoring the key words to stop useless clicks from people seeing your add who are not really interested - they type in 'marble floor cleaning products' and your add pops up as google thinks its relevant, you get clicked on and pay £1.50 for nothing you are not selling a product you are selling a service. Put the word 'product' in as a negative keyword and hopefully you will not come up.
I have been trialling adwords and its better than most forms of general ads but it is hard to get it right I certainly have not mastered it. I guess if you ever really nail it you could just sell yourself as an Adword consultant. There seems to be quite a few web designers who offer adword campaign management I would bet money a lot do not know that much and in particular do not understand industry specific marketing. It is still trial and error for me and has not made me rich the enquiries are not coming thick and fast but I do tend to convert most I get. Its getting me off carpet & upholstery cleaning and I could do with a better website so its small steps.   

WOW!!
I could not have expected such a concise answer, thank you very much. I hope I can return the favour one day.

[Graeme Smith]

Rob if you really start looking at adwords and how to make it work without it costing the earth it makes your brain fry! good luck

[Graeme Smith]

Rob - what do you currently do to get tile/stone floor cleaning work??

[sherco]

Most of my work comes from referrals these days, But tile retailers are a good place to leave cards also local magazines i get lots of work from. Dont go for the cheap mags try the glossy up market ones. I think my ad cost £150 per month and on average gets me £1500-2000 worth of work.

[Graeme Smith]

What sort of local mags - covering what kind of population - I do PPC (obviously) but traditional ads is an area I've not used except for carpet/upholstery cleaning which is a different bag and keen to leave behind

[sherco]

A couple i do in my area are The Wealden Times and another called SO Magazine..my ads are not in these at the moment...but it will give you an idea of magazines to advertise.

[Rob Hall]

Most of my work comes from referrals these days, But tile retailers are a good place to leave cards also local magazines i get lots of work from. Dont go for the cheap mags try the glossy up market ones. I think my ad cost £150 per month and on average gets me £1500-2000 worth of work.

Glossy mags? As in the National Glossies? Such as 25 Beautiful Homes?

[Rob Hall]

Rob - what do you currently do to get tile/stone floor cleaning work??

Hi Graeme
We had a Tile Retail Business for the last 12 years, we sold it 4 months ago. I got regular work from there. Obviously, I have a large data base of customers who I can target, but I was interested in how others do it. Not everyone has a tile showroom!! I advertise in small local mags, but to be honest they are not really that good. My website goes live in a few days but I would like to see what others do that WORKS? It is easy to keep throwing money into the wrong places, they all tell you..it works, but you have to keep doing it regularly.

I don't know if something like this would work....if some of us signed up to a website, just for OUR type of work, lets assume 100 of us and we all pay into a fund for advertising on TV. I think it is important to only have 1 person for a certain area or town/city/county. Some of you will have heard of the Tile Doctor, I am the West Yorkshire Tile Doctor, Russ is a smashing lad with a great Idea, but I think the idea could be taken to another level. Russ sells his products to you or the customer through advertising, you get the lead and off you go to do the job, he makes his money from the sale of his products.

TV advertising does not have to be at half 7 between Coronation Street, Mrs Housewife is watching TV throughout the day, so rates come down a lot.

I think, by having a Website of Hard Floor/Tile & Stone Cleaners, who's websites are linked to the one which is advertised on TV, you each get the leads on your own area.

I look forward to any comments and potential interested parties.

The type of things we need to think about is;

1. Who runs it?
My answer is, ..anyone! There would have to be some reward for doing so.

2. What products do we promote/use?
My answer is, maybe we can re-brand some of the popular brands out there, obviously with permission. What do YOU use?

3. How much will it cost each individual?
My answer is, I really don't know. But I will find out. Obviously, the South East based people will get more leads than those in Scotland. Obviously, we will have to have more people receiving leads in the South East than in Aberdeen.

With the likes of our 'resident experts' such as Kevin Martin and CSUK, how can we go wrong? We have a huge amount of expertise on here and I personally think it can be expanded on and used to much better advantage.

I will start a data base of interested parties, so please, when replying, can you give me your contact details, including email address so that I can contact you.
My email address is rob.hall@btinternet.com

I look forward to ALL your comments, good or bad.

[sherco]

Most of my work comes from referrals these days, But tile retailers are a good place to leave cards also local magazines i get lots of work from. Dont go for the cheap mags try the glossy up market ones. I think my ad cost £150 per month and on average gets me £1500-2000 worth of work.

Glossy mags? As in the National Glossies? Such as 25 Beautiful Homes?
[/quote Only do local Glossies Check the ones out in you local area. The Wealden Times And So magazine are Free magazines.

[Rob Hall]

Well, that idea went down like a lead balloon didn't it?

[Rob Hall]

Well, that idea went down like a lead balloon didn't it?

OK, I've had another thought.
As I am typing, I notice that 181 people have taken an interest in the topic "The Best Place to Advertise"
I can only assume that, 181 people are interested in..... The Best Place To Advertise??
I think, if I can get 100 people interested in a National Advert in say The Daily Mail or The Times or similar national newspaper, it makes you & I look like a national company, doesn't it?
This is how the Tile Doctor works. They are a one man band, mostly, but are backed by a brand that throws itself around the UK in quality magazines.
Does anyone else know of anyone else who is doing it? I don't, so why don't we?
Lets face it, most of us have all done courses, wether it be Kevin Martins course, Tile Doctor, Crawshaws, Nulife, Twister...etc etc.
How many of you are registered with the Tile Doctor?
I am. It costs me £85+vat/month and I am getting 2 or 3 leads a month. This is not a "get at" Russ, far from it, I am just thinking of other ways that our advertising money can be used in a better way.
There are about 83 counties, not including Greater London, so I am looking for at least 83 people who want to cover THEIR OWN county. If I place an advert in a National Newspaper promoting Yours and My business as Hard Floor Cleaners, I need to be able to pass the work onto YOU in Northamptonshire...YOU in Cheshire...YOU in Surrey etc etc
Greater London will have to be run by 2 or 3 of you, but I am open to YOUR suggestions.
As I am based in Yorkshire, I would probably suggest to the other interested Yorkshire man that we split it either by postcodes or use the M62 as a break.
I am going to get some prices for a Quality National Newspaper and I will let you know the costs. I can then divide the costs by how many of you that are interested. I suppose, the less of you that are interested, the more of an area the rest of us have to work on.
Maybe it is better to simplify this even further.
Is any one interested in taking an area. Lets use Lancashire and Cumbria as a start?
Anyone want to register an interest in Cheshire?
Leicestershire & Nottinghamshire anyone?
Any other areas of interest to anyone?
We are ONLY registering an INTEREST....NOT signing up for anything yet! Obviously I need to see how many are INTERESTED to see how the cost of advertising will share out.

They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink! If I don't get any interest, I will stop bothering you all and choose a different method of approach, I just think that, as we are all together on this forum, it makes sense to keep it here. I will let you know what costs I get back from the Newspapers.
Again, my email address is rob.hall@btinternet.com

[Kev Martin]

Rob

Whilst I appreciate what you are doing or trying to do, I doubt if the idea would work in the way you are currently suggesting.  In order to get a group of like minded individuals they all need to be trained to virtually the same standard and have the same knowledge.  So for example if you were trying to do this with Plumbers who were all trained or Bricklayers it may work.  But what you seem to be proposing would indicate getting a group together with all different skill sets and furthermore different products.  You mention Russell at Tile Doctor who was up until a few years ago using Aqua Mix Products bottled under his own name.  He is now using LTP products bottled under his own name and AllforStone Grout Colorants.  I am not having a go at him or anyone else but in my mind whilst the idea is good in principal but, to maintain a consistent service and standard I am of the opinion that everyone in the group needs to have had the same training and use the same products!  That's my take on it anyway!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Rob

Whilst I appreciate what you are doing or trying to do, I doubt if the idea would work in the way you are currently suggesting.  In order to get a group of like minded individuals they all need to be trained to virtually the same standard and have the same knowledge.  So for example if you were trying to do this with Plumbers who were all trained or Bricklayers it may work.  But what you seem to be proposing would indicate getting a group together with all different skill sets and furthermore different products.  You mention Russell at Tile Doctor who was up until a few years ago using Aqua Mix Products bottled under his own name.  He is now using LTP products bottled under his own name and AllforStone Grout Colorants.  I am not having a go at him or anyone else but in my mind whilst the idea is good in principal but, to maintain a consistent service and standard I am of the opinion that everyone in the group needs to have had the same training and use the same products!  That's my take on it anyway!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

I think I disagree with you Kevin, why would we have to be all trained to the same standard?
We all clean and restore to OUR own standards now, we all make a living doing it, so why have a "standard" to work to? It seems to work for 43 Tile Doctors, all these people have been trained by Russ AND various others too. If you have been trained by Tile Doctor...you can clean a floor. If you have training by Marblelife...you can clean a floor. Same with HTC Twister...Nulife...etc
I agree that, the registered team will have to have had SOME training in all aspects of restoration or we cannot advertise a FULL package
Everyone on the Hard Floor Cleaning part of this forum cleans, or restores, hard floors...I assume?
Many of them have probably done your course or another which will show them how to clean and restore hard floors.
What I would like to try and set up, is a National "Team" of individuals who would be willing to take on the work that comes from a National Advertising campaign.
I don't want to force anyone to take the work and I don't expect everyone wants the work, in fact judging by the response and interest in the idea, we had better keep our industry very quiet as the rest of the world is in something called a recession!! It looks like everyone else, apart from me, is mowed out with work and cannot take any more on. No one is interested in getting anymore. I have had one interested person off this forum, local to me, who would probably take this further.
I am amazed that the Tile Doctor has 43 Tile Doctors around the UK who are willing, not only to pay for the training course, but, pay a monthly fee for website optimisation, a cost of £85+vat/month AND retail money for the cleaning products AND pay for the order forms. To be clear, I am not knocking Russ, he is a genuine nice guy with a good little business going on, however, I think there is more to do and there are 1000's of people looking for people like us to sort the floors. Believe me, I had a Retail Tile Showroom for 12 years, lots of folk were sick of their stone floor and were willing to rip it up and replace it with porcelain, ceramic, wood, carpet or yesterdays edition of The Daily Express as long as its not stone. We need to stop this trend of ripping up the stone or we have not got a future have we? Unless of course we ALL start doing wood, carpet and yesterdays newspaper cleaning!

I think your reference to Plumbers and Bricklayers is nothing like what we all do. For example, Plumbers are expected to fix a leaky tap, plumb in a washing machine, fit a bathroom suite and plumb a complete house. Likewise, a bricklayer is expected to build a garden wall, re-point a house, BUILD a house, whilst making sure all his joints are exactly 10mm wide on his blockwork, whilst using sand and cement, much like any other bricklayer. Predominantly, we clean floors.

The team I am wanting to put together are probably already cleaning Stone Floors, will have been shown how to use a polishing kit (if not, a days course can be arranged) and will probably be already using cleaning products and sealers. Some will use a buffing/scrubbing machine, some will use twister pads, some will use other systems, I don't think we all need to have exacting standards such as plumbers and/or bricklayers.

Don't get me wrong on this one Kevin, I am not arguing with you, in fact i appreciate your input, lets face it, there are not that many on here who appear to want any work, I have other interested parties away from this forum who ARE interested. I am trying to bring our industry a little more into the 21st century where we can all work together but within an area that suits us all. I know you travel the entire UK, so, I am guessing that this type of set up would not suit you and your team, but, for the one-man-band, like me, the power of having a national advert, backed by 40-50-60 others who are wanting to work, say, within a 50 mile radius of home and get the lions share of that radius certainly interests me.
In comparison to the Plumbers and Bricklayers, our industry is not quiet so .....urmmm...lets say..technical, is it?

I am sure that, if the 50 or so team that gets put together all bought your Aqua-Mix products, you would probably back the idea too?
With 50 or so regular buyers, we would have enough buying-power to negotiate some better discounts than just going it alone, especially if all the buying can be done centrally and sent out to each individual job.

If we assume that all 50 of the team do 3 jobs a week, thats 150 bottles of cleaner, 150 bottles of sealer and 150 bottles of a maintenance product, thats not a bad little order for a supplier, is it?

I am not prepared to keep p!ssing into the wind if no one is interested in getting more work with the benefit of looking like a National Company, I have other people ready to go, I thought it would be a good idea to have others on here who are also involved with Stone Cleaning/restoring.

I hope this does not sound like an attack on you personally Kevin, in fact, I hope to speak to you about supplying the team that is assembled, that is, if you are interested?

[Kev Martin]

Rob

I think you are misunderstanding me or I am not putting it across well.  Just because someone has done a course and by that I mean any course including my own does not mean they are ready to go out and start tackling any type of floor.  Solving hard floor problems is essentially a science that needs to be thought about and no single person can go on a two day course and learn it in one go.  It takes experience and practice.  So what I am trying to say is you need to be confident that all the people in the group have roughly the same skills and this is what I meant by being trained to a standard.  I have fought for years to get stone restoration and cleaning recognised as a qualification and all I get is "Would I be prepared to write a suitable syllabus".  This may come as a slight shock and I am probably going to get myself in trouble but the other day I attended the IICRC 2 Day Hard Floor Course in the NFS at Farnham.  Everyone including the instructor wanted to know why I was doing the course and to be honest I did have an ulterior motive (more about that later)  However, my point is,  I am on this course which has no practical element to it at all and hopefully in a few weeks I will receive my IICRC qualification which states I can clean & restore floors.  The upshot is the course completely baffled me and I knew exactly what they were talking about and what they were trying to get across.  So unless I completely missed the point I fail to see how the other 12 delegates who will all probably pass with a 75% pass mark or above understood the course either.  But in a few weeks time they will have a Certificate to say they are qualified.

Regarding products of course I would be delighted to sell more but please do not think that we only sell Aqua Mix because that is simply not true.  Furthermore, as people will tell you who have been on the course we push no particular products.  What we say is to do this job you need an Alkaline or Acid etc.  We then say what we use because we have found it the best because out of all the teaching establishments we do after all do repair and restoration for a living.  Finally we do pass a lot of work on already for a variety of reasons but invariably I want to be confident that the work we are passing on can be done by that person.

Recent examples include

Repairing a 10 Linear metre marble work top that had been sat on by some kids and split in the middle.
Deep cleaning and repair of 120M2 of honed filed travertine.
Grout Recolor of 4 bathrooms.
Repairing a single broken tile in a department store
Stripping 44M2 of slate flooring and resealing

All work we passed on.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Rob Hall]

Rob

I think you are misunderstanding me or I am not putting it across well.  Just because someone has done a course and by that I mean any course including my own does not mean they are ready to go out and start tackling any type of floor.  Solving hard floor problems is essentially a science that needs to be thought about and no single person can go on a two day course and learn it in one go.  It takes experience and practice.  So what I am trying to say is you need to be confident that all the people in the group have roughly the same skills and this is what I meant by being trained to a standard.  I have fought for years to get stone restoration and cleaning recognised as a qualification and all I get is "Would I be prepared to write a suitable syllabus".  This may come as a slight shock and I am probably going to get myself in trouble but the other day I attended the IICRC 2 Day Hard Floor Course in the NFS at Farnham.  Everyone including the instructor wanted to know why I was doing the course and to be honest I did have an ulterior motive (more about that later)  However, my point is,  I am on this course which has no practical element to it at all and hopefully in a few weeks I will receive my IICRC qualification which states I can clean & restore floors.  The upshot is the course completely baffled me and I knew exactly what they were talking about and what they were trying to get across.  So unless I completely missed the point I fail to see how the other 12 delegates who will all probably pass with a 75% pass mark or above understood the course either.  But in a few weeks time they will have a Certificate to say they are qualified.

Regarding products of course I would be delighted to sell more but please do not think that we only sell Aqua Mix because that is simply not true.  Furthermore, as people will tell you who have been on the course we push no particular products.  What we say is to do this job you need an Alkaline or Acid etc.  We then say what we use because we have found it the best because out of all the teaching establishments we do after all do repair and restoration for a living.  Finally we do pass a lot of work on already for a variety of reasons but invariably I want to be confident that the work we are passing on can be done by that person.

Recent examples include

Repairing a 10 Linear metre marble work top that had been sat on by some kids and split in the middle.
Deep cleaning and repair of 120M2 of honed filed travertine.
Grout Recolor of 4 bathrooms.
Repairing a single broken tile in a department store
Stripping 44M2 of slate flooring and resealing

All work we passed on.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

Thank you Kevin for such a positive response, at least you have responded and shown an interest in supplying.
I may have given you the wrong impression of what I am trying to achieve.
I don't think for one minute that, anyone can call themselves an expert in all things Stone after a two day course, wether it be yours, or anyone else's.

My idea is a lot less complicated.

I want a team of people, self employed, (I am not interested in employing anyone...been there...done that!) who are capable of;

1. Cleaning and sealing a Stone Floor.
2. Repair work to Travertine, for example. I choose Travertine as there is a squillion square metres of the stuff out there and as it is naturally full of holes, it inevitably requires repair work and cleaning & sealing.
3. Cleaning and sealing of Victorian Floors. Certainly in my area, these floors are very popular and people are realising there true value.
4. Re-polishing of a dull Marble floor. With the amount of Diamond pads available, bringing a pre-polished floor back to life is relatively easy. Personally, I want to take my business one step further. I am going to go for the Levigator from you and advertise lippage removal and repolishing. I have done some lippage and polishing work with my machine, but it is not heavy enough and I cannot rely on it as it is not the quality of a Klindex machine.

I do not want to put anyone in a position that they are uncomfortable with. Cleaning and sealing a floor is, I think you will agree, a job most of us are capable of without an IICRC qualification. I am not sure if the IICRC qualification would help any of us who, day to day clean stone floors.

I am struggling to understand your phrase fully...
"Solving hard floor problems is essentially a science"

I agree that we need to know what TYPE of Stone we are dealing with and to a degree, if we are talking about Tilers who have found their way into the restoration business, they SHOULD know what the stone is. You, quiet rightly, hammer home to everyone to do a test area before hitting the job with a cleaning product. Carpet Cleaners and Wood floor people maybe the wrong people to be part of the National Team, they may wish to take it on themselves to learn the different types of stones and join the team later.

To sum up and try to simplify for any one who does not understand what I am trying to achieve;

The advert would read something like this;

(Possibly a Photo of a Before & After floor)
Stone Floors Cleaned & Sealed
Repairs to Travertine Floors
Re-Polishing of Marble Floors
Grout Re-colouring
Tile Repairs and Replacing
Our Experienced Team are Based all over the UK.
Please visit www.xyz.com for further information.

Obviously, the advert needs to be a little bit snappier, I am sure that, between us all, we can come up with a decent advert that works and gets the housewife with the "Impossible to Clean Floor" contacts us.

I think I have made the mistake of assuming a high number of tilers on this forum.

I look forward to your thoughts Kevin and anyone else who has any further ideas.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

I can see what you are trying to do but try and accept that everyone is different and consequently everyone who does a course leaves the course with different ideas and take away their own ideas on how they will use the knowledge.

I have trained 100's of people.  Some have never done anything with the course.  Lot's have gone away and do basic cleaning as an add on to their carpet business. Some specialise just in grout Recoloring, some do a mixture and 3, only 3 have gone into full blown stone restoration and out of those 3 one has now left the business.

My point about the IICRC course to was to demonstrate to you and the readers that just because you pass a course and get a certificate does not mean you can or want do it all!

Regarding your quote below where you state:

"My idea is a lot less complicated.

I want a team of people, self employed, (I am not interested in employing anyone...been there...done that!) who are capable of;

1. Cleaning and sealing a Stone Floor.
2. Repair work to Travertine, for example. I choose Travertine as there is a squillion square metres of the stuff out there and as it is naturally full of holes, it inevitably requires repair work and cleaning & sealing.
3. Cleaning and sealing of Victorian Floors. Certainly in my area, these floors are very popular and people are realising there true value.
4. Re-polishing of a dull Marble floor. With the amount of Diamond pads available, bringing a pre-polished floor back to life is relatively easy. Personally, I want to take my business one step further. I am going to go for the Levigator from you and advertise lippage removal and repolishing. I have done some lippage and polishing work with my machine, but it is not heavy enough and I cannot rely on it as it is not the quality of a Klindex machine."

I think you are asking a lot!  Why not start a separate thread and ask:

"How many on here feel confident about being able to say that they can tackle all the above" Especially the statement in 4.  above which says "Bringing a pre-polished floor back to life is relatively easy"

Rob, I am not trying to pour water on your idea and I admire your enthusiasm but if you think re polishing any stone floor is relatively easy then you have been very lucky!  By this I mean Marbles with such things as high iron content, conglomerates, agglomerates, quartzite type marbles, dark marbles especially some of the nero's, Serpentine etc etc.

I have people who have been doing this for 5 years + and they still ring on a regular basis and ask for advice on how to do a particular type of floor!  Hopefully some of them will not be too proud to add to this thread and confirm what I am saying.

The cleaning and restoration of stone is a science albeit not an exact science.  Often you can have the right chemicals and the right idea on how to do it but even then things still have to be used in the right order.

e.g.

Problem 1.  You have a porcelain floor with grout haze on it. 

The grout was a flexible grout that has been over washed.  Ordinarily a solution of diluted Phosphoric Acid will get rid of a grout haze relatively easily.  However, in this case because it was a flexible grout that has been over washed it means that the polymers in the grout will have all risen to the surface and formed a protective skin.  So in this case you would need to use a sealing & coating remover to break down the polymers prior to using the diluted phosphoric acid.

Problem 2.  You have oil on your hands and wash them under cold water, some of the oil comes off.  Now change the water to warm even more oil comes off.  Now add washing up liquid and it all comes off.

I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs and you probably know all this but what I am trying to say is, sometimes it is necessary to use a combination of products to get a 100% result!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Rob Hall]

Rob

I can see what you are trying to do but try and accept that everyone is different and consequently everyone who does a course leaves the course with different ideas and take away their own ideas on how they will use the knowledge.

I have trained 100's of people.  Some have never done anything with the course.  Lot's have gone away and do basic cleaning as an add on to their carpet business. Some specialise just in grout Recoloring, some do a mixture and 3, only 3 have gone into full blown stone restoration and out of those 3 one has now left the business.

My point about the IICRC course to was to demonstrate to you and the readers that just because you pass a course and get a certificate does not mean you can or want do it all!

Regarding your quote below where you state:

"My idea is a lot less complicated.

I want a team of people, self employed, (I am not interested in employing anyone...been there...done that!) who are capable of;

1. Cleaning and sealing a Stone Floor.
2. Repair work to Travertine, for example. I choose Travertine as there is a squillion square metres of the stuff out there and as it is naturally full of holes, it inevitably requires repair work and cleaning & sealing.
3. Cleaning and sealing of Victorian Floors. Certainly in my area, these floors are very popular and people are realising there true value.
4. Re-polishing of a dull Marble floor. With the amount of Diamond pads available, bringing a pre-polished floor back to life is relatively easy. Personally, I want to take my business one step further. I am going to go for the Levigator from you and advertise lippage removal and repolishing. I have done some lippage and polishing work with my machine, but it is not heavy enough and I cannot rely on it as it is not the quality of a Klindex machine."

I think you are asking a lot!  Why not start a separate thread and ask:

"How many on here feel confident about being able to say that they can tackle all the above" Especially the statement in 4.  above which says "Bringing a pre-polished floor back to life is relatively easy"

Rob, I am not trying to pour water on your idea and I admire your enthusiasm but if you think re polishing any stone floor is relatively easy then you have been very lucky!  By this I mean Marbles with such things as high iron content, conglomerates, agglomerates, quartzite type marbles, dark marbles especially some of the nero's, Serpentine etc etc.

I have people who have been doing this for 5 years + and they still ring on a regular basis and ask for advice on how to do a particular type of floor!  Hopefully some of them will not be too proud to add to this thread and confirm what I am saying.

The cleaning and restoration of stone is a science albeit not an exact science.  Often you can have the right chemicals and the right idea on how to do it but even then things still have to be used in the right order.

e.g.

Problem 1.  You have a porcelain floor with grout haze on it. 

The grout was a flexible grout that has been over washed.  Ordinarily a solution of diluted Phosphoric Acid will get rid of a grout haze relatively easily.  However, in this case because it was a flexible grout that has been over washed it means that the polymers in the grout will have all risen to the surface and formed a protective skin.  So in this case you would need to use a sealing & coating remover to break down the polymers prior to using the diluted phosphoric acid.

Problem 2.  You have oil on your hands and wash them under cold water, some of the oil comes off.  Now change the water to warm even more oil comes off.  Now add washing up liquid and it all comes off.

I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs and you probably know all this but what I am trying to say is, sometimes it is necessary to use a combination of products to get a 100% result!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

Hi Kevin
As I was getting very little interest on here, I tried tilersforums.co.uk.
What a waste of time. I posted on there at 2:15 this morning after a lot of thought about what I was trying to say, to avoid the same reaction that appears to have happened on here.
I checked this morning for any replies, only to find my 'gazillion word presentation' had been removed by The Communist Forum Admin called Sir Ramic!! (or Adolf as he was refered to by another member on the phone today)
Apparently, he is not well liked on there and likes the power of 'pressing buttons' and removing threads. His excuse for removing my thread was for "advertising"!!
Yeah...Advertising!!
Advertising what exactly?? No Brands mentioned...no company names...NOTHING! What a T@sser.

Anyway...rant over...
Thanks again for your reply.
What I would say is this, on your course, and others I have been on, I remember talking about "Problem Stones", such as Bassalt and serpentine.
I for one would not touch either of them. I am not even that confident about Granite.
Heres a quick one for you. In 12 years of owning and running a Retail Stone Tile Showroom, can you guess how much Bassalt and Serpentine we actually sold?

Time Up!

None!!

Question 2.
How much conglomerate Marble do you think we sold?

Time Up!

None!

Agglomerates!!!

Yep, you guessed it...NONE!

I am going to admit defeat on QUARTZITE TYPE MARBLE, what is that? We sold containers of Quartz and containers of Marble, but never any
Quartz-marble. To me Quartz is Quartz and Marble is Marble. Please will you educate me?

However, you will have no doubt have heard of Crema Marfil, we bought acres of the stuff.
Bottocino, again acres of the stuff.
We bought countless number of containers of Travertine, including polished.

So, judging by my little survey, I can safely say that, there are more Domestic floors around the UK with Travertine and Crema Marfil on than Serpentine and Agglomerates/Conglomerates, I will stand corrected if the reverse is true in Birmingham.

High Iron content Marble such as Carrera can 'Yellow' as you know and obviously care should be taken as the Carerra type Marble contains Iron and will 'brown' when water comes into contact.

My views on any Tom, Dick or Harry signing up to something that is beyond his capabilities is his own worst enemy. If I saw a similar ad on, say, carpet cleaning, I would not be interested as I know nothing about it.

I admit to making polishing "A Marble Floor Being Easy" was a mistake. It's not 'easy' but it is NOT difficult either. Again, I am referring to Crema Marfil of course.
Marble Polishing is Mind Numbingly boring but I stand by what I say in the case of POPULAR marble, such as Crema Marfil. I polished +/-150sqm using Crawshaws Revolution Kit with excellent results...boring...but looked like new and yes, everything had to be used in the correct order.
Make no mistake, I am NOT saying that polishing other types of Marble is as "easy" as Crema Marfil, I am pointing out that, out of 100 enquiries for polishing a Marble floor, they could be SOME other types, but judging by my last 12 years of invoices...not that many.

I too would also like to hear from others who also refurbish floors,  I am sure, like me, they don't know everything, nobody does, we are all learning all the time.

You opened up your last email with;

I can see what you are trying to do but try and accept that everyone is different and consequently everyone who does a course leaves the course with different ideas and take away their own ideas on how they will use the knowledge.

My answer to that is, if that statement is true, then Tile Doctor should not exist.

I did the Tile Doctor course, so did many others. Around 40 odd others have signed up with Russ so far. Russ gives all 40 odd T/D's leads that are generated from his web site, he sells his products and we all get the work.
I suppose it would be just easier to email all the Tile Doctors and ask them to join in the campaign. I just don't want to upset Russ. So I thought I would cast out my net and see how many would be interested in growing there business with very little outlay...not many is the answer!

So, with your advice in mind... I ask your question to all the members on here....

How many on here feel confident about being able to say that they can tackle all the above

To reiterate;

I am NOT wanting to employ anyone.
Everyone does what they are doing now.
We simply ALL chip in for a National advert and hopefully reap the rewards.
Thats it.
Nothing else.
Wheres the catch...I hear you say!!
There isn't one.

I think I will try something else as trying to lead the proverbial horse to water is much more difficult than I first thought.



I am losing the will to live....

[SteveAllan]

What's the reason for this quest Rob if the Tile Doctor is giving you optimised presence on the web and regular work?

[Jamie Pearson]

Rob.

The TV advertising you suggest is the same idea Derek West ultimately has for The Approved Carpet Cleaners Association www.tacca.co.uk

I have seen the rates and viewer numbers for the campaign and its impressive reading.

My thoughts are that for the money involved a directory using a well targeted and managed Adwords campaign to catch those actually shopping for stone cleaning/restoration may get a better return especially with the same budget.

I too have used the Crawshaws Revolution System and agree its a good system in the right situation and we have it as part of the line up of many systems at our disposal.

Next to trial is some Supershine Hards then I have used them all except cheetahs (currently unavailable) some last amazingly well and others are poor for the price but have strong marketing behind them so won't dissapear anytime soon.

[Rob Hall]

What's the reason for this quest Rob if the Tile Doctor is giving you optimised presence on the web and regular work?

Hi Steve.
I may have mentioned earlier in this thread that, the Tile Doctor charge £85+vat for website optimisation each month. I personally think, that, if all the Tile Doctors put £85+vat into a National Newspaper Advert, lets say the Interiors section of The Mail On Sunday, I think the response would be good and the money is better spent on a the ad, rather than promoting the Tile Doctor website. I for one, do not get value for money from it and I am not too sure if I will be continuing with it.
My website, which is due to go live in the New Year, will be optimised at a much lower cost.

Hope this answers your question.

[Rob Hall]

Rob.

The TV advertising you suggest is the same idea Derek West ultimately has for The Approved Carpet Cleaners Association www.tacca.co.uk

I have seen the rates and viewer numbers for the campaign and its impressive reading.

My thoughts are that for the money involved a directory using a well targeted and managed Adwords campaign to catch those actually shopping for stone cleaning/restoration may get a better return especially with the same budget.

I too have used the Crawshaws Revolution System and agree its a good system in the right situation and we have it as part of the line up of many systems at our disposal.

Next to trial is some Supershine Hards then I have used them all except cheetahs (currently unavailable) some last amazingly well and others are poor for the price but have strong marketing behind them so won't dissapear anytime soon.

I think you are right.
My problem is that, I am paying £85+vat to optimise My website on the Tile Doctors site...if that makes sense, not my business's site.

ok, this is how it works.

As a Tile Doctor, you get your "own" site on the Tile Doctors MAIN site. If I was paying the money for MY site, that would be a different matter.
I am not inundated with work from that, so the idea of a National Advertising Campaign for me and 40 odd others seems like a good idea.
Or not, as the case may be.

[SteveAllan]

Ah right fair enough i see your point.
I have been looking at my own marketing and all i seem to hear from people that the internet, social media etc is the way forward and anyone not on board wont have a business in 5 years as they will be left behind (not my words but a markerting expert) and printed advertising is dying on its arse.
All i know for sure is if i want anything the first thing i do is look on google.
Its interesting what you say about the Tile Doctor as i spoke to Russell a while back and he sells it well as i was left with the impression that as part of the network there was plenty of work passed to the members, i like you would also be hacked off if i was not getting a return on investment.
Maybe im talking BS, not sure, but is printed advertising the way to go.
Cheers
Steve

[Rob Hall]

Ah right fair enough i see your point.
I have been looking at my own marketing and all i seem to hear from people that the internet, social media etc is the way forward and anyone not on board wont have a business in 5 years as they will be left behind (not my words but a markerting expert) and printed advertising is dying on its arse.
All i know for sure is if i want anything the first thing i do is look on google.
Its interesting what you say about the Tile Doctor as i spoke to Russell a while back and he sells it well as i was left with the impression that as part of the network there was plenty of work passed to the members, i like you would also be hacked off if i was not getting a return on investment.
Maybe im talking BS, not sure, but is printed advertising the way to go.
Cheers
Steve

I find it difficult to disagree with you.
I too, like you, google everything.
The Newspapers are also available online and I think the printed newspaper is on borrowed time.
However, the Television is going to be around for a little while yet. I have got no idea of the costs of TV advertising, but, if we all chipped in to promote a National Website, where all our sites are on and the potential customer is lead by area to yours or my site.

What do you think?
The more interested parties the cheaper it will be for us all.

[SteveAllan]

It would be interesting to see the numbers, certainly.

[Rob Hall]

It would be interesting to see the numbers, certainly.

I will do some work on it Steve.
I will research daytime TV
I have got a rate of £107 per square centimetre for The Mail On Sunday, Interiors spot.
TV will be VERY expensive, but divided by, say, 100, it will work out value for money I am sure.

[Rob Hall]

Rob.

The TV advertising you suggest is the same idea Derek West ultimately has for The Approved Carpet Cleaners Association www.tacca.co.uk

I have seen the rates and viewer numbers for the campaign and its impressive reading.

My thoughts are that for the money involved a directory using a well targeted and managed Adwords campaign to catch those actually shopping for stone cleaning/restoration may get a better return especially with the same budget.

I too have used the Crawshaws Revolution System and agree its a good system in the right situation and we have it as part of the line up of many systems at our disposal.

Next to trial is some Supershine Hards then I have used them all except cheetahs (currently unavailable) some last amazingly well and others are poor for the price but have strong marketing behind them so won't dissapear anytime soon.

I have never tried the Cheetah pads, I have used Twister with a degree of success, however I find Crawshaws Revolution to do the trick.
Any idea why Cheetah pads aren't available?

[Rob Hall]

Some Ideas of TV advertising costs.
I have got the following information from a website called tvadvertisingcosts.co.uk

How much does TV Advertising cost?
To work out the TV Advertising costs for a specific programme or channel, you will need to establish two things, firstly the average TV viewing figures and secondly the traded cost per thousand. For example, to advertise Nationally in This Morning on ITV1 in April 2010 buying adults, would be calculated as follows; Adults Viewers for This Morning = 1 million, ratecard cost per thousand for Adults in April 2010 = £8.21/1000. Therefore 1,000 x £8.21 = £8,210 per 30 seconds.

      

Animated TV Advert Production
If you are running a test or simply want to keep the initial costs to a minimum we would normally advise an animated TV advert which does not require any filming, lighting, actors or locations. An animated TV advert can often be produced for less than £5,000.

So, lets assume 100 of us go for it.

At £8210 we would pay £82.10 each, slightly less than I am paying towards the Tile Doctors site. I am currently receiving around 3-4 leads a month from Tile Doctor for that.
I, for one, am willing to chip in £82 a month to be on TV
It works out at only 50 quid if we dont need locations, lighting etc.
50 QUID!!
I am looking for another 99.
Interested?

[Jamie Pearson]

3 to 4 leads for £82 isn't bad.

I know of a lead generation site for stone floor works and it is/was £30 per lead.

[Rob Hall]

3 to 4 leads for £82 isn't bad.

I know of a lead generation site for stone floor works and it is/was £30 per lead.

Thats just for leads.
I have had 31 leads since April 21st and actually got 11 jobs (at £85+vat a month) Is that still considered good?

[SteveAllan]

I think it depends on your average job ticket. If you making good money per job then the £85 is really just a cost within your prices anyway.

[Rob Hall]

I think it depends on your average job ticket. If you making good money per job then the £85 is really just a cost within your prices anyway.

Thanks Steve, I am starting to think that, the cost ie £85, is a reasonable price to pay IF we are getting the work.

I have had another thought, a different approach to how we all can move forward. I don't want to go in to too many details just now, I need to do a little bit more work on it regarding costs, its nothing new, just a bit smarter and hopefully cheaper than anyone else with the intention of more work for us.

[AshWhite]

Some Ideas of TV advertising costs.
I have got the following information from a website called tvadvertisingcosts.co.uk

How much does TV Advertising cost?
To work out the TV Advertising costs for a specific programme or channel, you will need to establish two things, firstly the average TV viewing figures and secondly the traded cost per thousand. For example, to advertise Nationally in This Morning on ITV1 in April 2010 buying adults, would be calculated as follows; Adults Viewers for This Morning = 1 million, ratecard cost per thousand for Adults in April 2010 = £8.21/1000. Therefore 1,000 x £8.21 = £8,210 per 30 seconds.

      

Animated TV Advert Production
If you are running a test or simply want to keep the initial costs to a minimum we would normally advise an animated TV advert which does not require any filming, lighting, actors or locations. An animated TV advert can often be produced for less than £5,000.

So, lets assume 100 of us go for it.

At £8210 we would pay £82.10 each, slightly less than I am paying towards the Tile Doctors site. I am currently receiving around 3-4 leads a month from Tile Doctor for that.
I, for one, am willing to chip in £82 a month to be on TV
It works out at only 50 quid if we dont need locations, lighting etc.
50 QUID!!
I am looking for another 99.
Interested?

And what good do you think 1 advert a month would do?

[Kev Martin]

IMHO Conversion rates are more important than the leads and that is the hard part of winning stone restoration jobs.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Some Ideas of TV advertising costs.
I have got the following information from a website called tvadvertisingcosts.co.uk

How much does TV Advertising cost?
To work out the TV Advertising costs for a specific programme or channel, you will need to establish two things, firstly the average TV viewing figures and secondly the traded cost per thousand. For example, to advertise Nationally in This Morning on ITV1 in April 2010 buying adults, would be calculated as follows; Adults Viewers for This Morning = 1 million, ratecard cost per thousand for Adults in April 2010 = £8.21/1000. Therefore 1,000 x £8.21 = £8,210 per 30 seconds.

Your right AshWhite, probably very little. I was told that to advertise right, it needs to be like a dripping tap,constant. ! a month, then 2, then 3 and build from there. Rome wasn't built in a day!! The more people we got on side, the more ads we could run. However, its dead in the water due to lack of interest. I, for one seem to be flogging a dead horse even trying to raise interest. There are a few that have contacted me privately and will keep in touch with them, and I thank them for their positivity. I have better things to do than convince others that, by joining together, we can do a lot more, but I am happy for you to go it alone AshWhite. Good Luck!
   

Animated TV Advert Production
If you are running a test or simply want to keep the initial costs to a minimum we would normally advise an animated TV advert which does not require any filming, lighting, actors or locations. An animated TV advert can often be produced for less than £5,000.

So, lets assume 100 of us go for it.

At £8210 we would pay £82.10 each, slightly less than I am paying towards the Tile Doctors site. I am currently receiving around 3-4 leads a month from Tile Doctor for that.
I, for one, am willing to chip in £82 a month to be on TV
It works out at only 50 quid if we dont need locations, lighting etc.
50 QUID!!
I am looking for another 99.
Interested?

And what good do you think 1 advert a month would do?

[Rob Hall]

Some Ideas of TV advertising costs.
I have got the following information from a website called tvadvertisingcosts.co.uk

How much does TV Advertising cost?
To work out the TV Advertising costs for a specific programme or channel, you will need to establish two things, firstly the average TV viewing figures and secondly the traded cost per thousand. For example, to advertise Nationally in This Morning on ITV1 in April 2010 buying adults, would be calculated as follows; Adults Viewers for This Morning = 1 million, ratecard cost per thousand for Adults in April 2010 = £8.21/1000. Therefore 1,000 x £8.21 = £8,210 per 30 seconds.

      

Animated TV Advert Production
If you are running a test or simply want to keep the initial costs to a minimum we would normally advise an animated TV advert which does not require any filming, lighting, actors or locations. An animated TV advert can often be produced for less than £5,000.

So, lets assume 100 of us go for it.

At £8210 we would pay £82.10 each, slightly less than I am paying towards the Tile Doctors site. I am currently receiving around 3-4 leads a month from Tile Doctor for that.
I, for one, am willing to chip in £82 a month to be on TV
It works out at only 50 quid if we dont need locations, lighting etc.
50 QUID!!
I am looking for another 99.
Interested?

And what good do you think 1 advert a month would do?

Just noticed your little saying at the bootom of your messages AshWhite

Fortes fortuna adiuvat

Or

Fortune Favours The Bold.

Well, trying to be bold with what I was trying to achieve is obviously not bold enough for you is it?

Do you have any "bold" ideas that we could all consider? I look forward to them.

[Billy Russell]

I thought it was Fortune favours the Brave,

could be wrong though!
 

[AshWhite]

Rob, I think you misunderstood me.

TV advertising would provide a boost for any industry, but I think your £100 would be better served getting 3 leads/month from Tiledoctor than 1 x 30 second ad on morning tv.

[AshWhite]

Also, as Jamie mentioned - you might want to take a look at tacca.co.uk, Derek West set the assosciation up with the TV advertising goal in mind.

Its not something that you're likely to get 100 people to sign up for overnight, as much as I admire your passion.

[Rob Hall]

Also, as Jamie mentioned - you might want to take a look at tacca.co.uk, Derek West set the assosciation up with the TV advertising goal in mind.

Its not something that you're likely to get 100 people to sign up for overnight, as much as I admire your passion.

Sorry Ash, I am having a bloody awful day. I am snapping at everyone for no reason at all.
I will have a look at the lead you sent.

Just as a further thought, TV may be a bit ambitious to start with, but how about a National Magazine aimed at our industry.
Yesterday I was thumbing through a few magazines in WHSmith such as 25 Beautiful Homes...Country Living...etc...you know the sort. If we started in those, I am sure we could get something from them. What do you think?

Happy New Year

I am off to take a chill pill

[Neil Williams]

I'm new to 'stones' and was on the same IICRC cousre that Kev was on, so am totally in agreement with what he said about the course, but I do have 13 years experience in the carpet/upholstery cleaning industry.
Advertising falls into 2 groups for me,
1. those looking specifically for a product/service
2 those who finally give in after being blasted consistantly with a specific advert.

TV advertising falls into Cat 2 where you have to constantly advertise every 15 minutes to get people to remember it..... and that's expensive.....very.
I had a 20 second advert on local radio that went out 5 times a day for 14 days...... number of enquiries.... zero. It would probably have finally caught someone if I'd continued for months and months but I'd have gone out of business long before that paid dividends.
People go to google because they are looking for something specific and that's where the best cost effective advertising is, in the same way as yellow pages used to be.

[Rob Hall]

I'm new to 'stones' and was on the same IICRC cousre that Kev was on, so am totally in agreement with what he said about the course, but I do have 13 years experience in the carpet/upholstery cleaning industry.
Advertising falls into 2 groups for me,
1. those looking specifically for a product/service
2 those who finally give in after being blasted consistantly with a specific advert.

TV advertising falls into Cat 2 where you have to constantly advertise every 15 minutes to get people to remember it..... and that's expensive.....very.
I had a 20 second advert on local radio that went out 5 times a day for 14 days...... number of enquiries.... zero. It would probably have finally caught someone if I'd continued for months and months but I'd have gone out of business long before that paid dividends.
People go to google because they are looking for something specific and that's where the best cost effective advertising is, in the same way as yellow pages used to be.

I think that, after reading all the replies, google is probably the one that is coming up more than any other.
So no point in a joint venture there then, we all pay for 'clicks' from google do we?

Happy New Year to all, it has been a very interesting thread for me.

So, to move it on a step....what do YOU pay per click?

Is it worth sponsoring the page that the results come up on. There are the ones down the right and the ones at the top. I don't bother with any of them when I search for something. My opinion is, if you have to pay to be there, you probably shouldn't be there in the first place!!

Thoughts??

[AshWhite]

Rob, the 'paid for' clicks are the sponsored results at the top and side, so even though you don't click them, plenty of people do.

I'll type more later, as I'm typing on my phone at the moment.

[Rob Hall]

Rob, the 'paid for' clicks are the sponsored results at the top and side, so even though you don't click them, plenty of people do.

I'll type more later, as I'm typing on my phone at the moment.

Thanks Ash, I'm all ears!! As I am sure others are.
I have just typed in to google "Marble Tile Cleaning", the first NON sponsored link is you tube, then, Tile Doctor.
"Tile Cleaning" still has Tile Doctor on the first page albeit the last one.
They are there again with Limestone Cleaning.

How do they do it?

[AshWhite]

Rob, the listings you are talking about are 'organic' listings, they get there because the websites content matches what the searcher is looking for (or at least what Google thinks the searcher is looking for). Sites like Tiledoctor which probably have dozens of other sites linking to it have more 'authority' than a site Joe Bloggs might knock up, so they get placed higher.

There are ways to get your organic listing higher (this is what is meant by SEO - Search Engine Optimisation), by manipulating the text on your site to match what might be searched for, as well as getting bigger sites to link back to yours. This is a bit of a minefield though, as Google is always changing the parameters that it uses to measure a sites 'authority'

However, if you search for "Tile cleaning [some random town name]", you might find that the results change, and you get smaller companies with more 'authority' because their service is closer related to what the searcher is looking for.

Google 'paid for' searches (Adwords, or PPC - Pay Per Click) is a good alternative, as you'll always feature on Page 1, regardless of your content (provided your budget is big enough).

Setting up an Adwords campaign is not something that I can guide you through on the forum, as it would take a few hours to get a decent campaign up and running.

There are books you can buy here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_sabc?url=search-alias%3Daps&pageMinusResults=1&suo=1356782371532#/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=adwords&sprefix=adwor%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aadwords

The Brad Geddes "Advanced Google Adwords" is a good book, but it's probably worth spending a bit of time playing with setting up a campaign before you start reading, otherwise you'll be a bit baffled as to what is being talked about.

I recently re-jigged my campaign, and have cut my adwords spend from £150/month to under £40 - without losing any 'clicks'. As a guide, from 1st December til today I have had 45 Adwords clicks, at a cost of £32.69.

[Rob Hall]

Rob, the listings you are talking about are 'organic' listings, they get there because the websites content matches what the searcher is looking for (or at least what Google thinks the searcher is looking for). Sites like Tiledoctor which probably have dozens of other sites linking to it have more 'authority' than a site Joe Bloggs might knock up, so they get placed higher.

There are ways to get your organic listing higher (this is what is meant by SEO - Search Engine Optimisation), by manipulating the text on your site to match what might be searched for, as well as getting bigger sites to link back to yours. This is a bit of a minefield though, as Google is always changing the parameters that it uses to measure a sites 'authority'

However, if you search for "Tile cleaning [some random town name]", you might find that the results change, and you get smaller companies with more 'authority' because their service is closer related to what the searcher is looking for.

Google 'paid for' searches (Adwords, or PPC - Pay Per Click) is a good alternative, as you'll always feature on Page 1, regardless of your content (provided your budget is big enough).

Setting up an Adwords campaign is not something that I can guide you through on the forum, as it would take a few hours to get a decent campaign up and running.

There are books you can buy here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_sabc?url=search-alias%3Daps&pageMinusResults=1&suo=1356782371532#/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=adwords&sprefix=adwor%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aadwords

The Brad Geddes "Advanced Google Adwords" is a good book, but it's probably worth spending a bit of time playing with setting up a campaign before you start reading, otherwise you'll be a bit baffled as to what is being talked about.

I recently re-jigged my campaign, and have cut my adwords spend from £150/month to under £40 - without losing any 'clicks'. As a guide, from 1st December til today I have had 45 Adwords clicks, at a cost of £32.69.

Thanks Ash
In your opinion, is it worth the £32.69?
Do you appear on the first page in your area?
Will you get a job(s) from it?
Did you get work after spending £150/month?

Do I contact google about SEO?
Do you use google?

Questions questions....!! Sorry.

Does anyone else do the same?

[AshWhite]

Yes it's worth the £32. It was worth the £160 when I was spending that, now it's just even more profitable. The return of Adwords is approx. 10x (sometimes higher, sometimes lower of course).

Google won't help you with SEO, there are companies out there who specialise in it, but there is a lot of snake oil out there - a lot of people got caught out with the recent Google algorithm change and their pages spiralled from page 1 to page 20+ (i.e. might as well not exist at all).

Of course, with Adwords, the SEO is irrelevant (although relevant content on your site will place your ad higher in the sponsored section, as well as make the cost per click less).

I would imagine that 50% of carpet/hard floor cleaners use some sort of PPC for advertising, it's the most effective and consistent for me.

I am in the process of becoming authorised by Google to resell Adwords services. If you want details, drop me a message to ashley@floors2show.co.uk and I'll fill you in.

[Rob Hall]

Yes it's worth the £32. It was worth the £160 when I was spending that, now it's just even more profitable. The return of Adwords is approx. 10x (sometimes higher, sometimes lower of course).

Google won't help you with SEO, there are companies out there who specialise in it, but there is a lot of snake oil out there - a lot of people got caught out with the recent Google algorithm change and their pages spiralled from page 1 to page 20+ (i.e. might as well not exist at all).

Of course, with Adwords, the SEO is irrelevant (although relevant content on your site will place your ad higher in the sponsored section, as well as make the cost per click less).

I would imagine that 50% of carpet/hard floor cleaners use some sort of PPC for advertising, it's the most effective and consistent for me.

I am in the process of becoming authorised by Google to resell Adwords services. If you want details, drop me a message to ashley@floors2show.co.uk and I'll fill you in.

Thanks for that Ash, I will drop you a message.
I am having a new site done as we 'speak' I will ask what they do for getting the site noticed.

So, SEO has nothing to do with Google Adwords, but I will need an SEO. Really, I suppose I need both, but 2 different companies do it.

Does anyone else who has been involved with this thread use the same idea for advertising, with similar results?

[Billy Russell]

Hi Rob,

Unlike Ash, i haven't got a clue what so ever about seo and ad words etc etc, but i can clean carpets, so i stick to what i know best and pay someone to do what they know best, seo, websites blah blah blah! 

I use this guy http://www.alloymarketing.co.uk/

gives me really good results, and is very competitive on price

[Rob Hall]

Hi Rob,

Unlike Ash, i haven't got a clue what so ever about seo and ad words etc etc, but i can clean carpets, so i stick to what i know best and pay someone to do what they know best, seo, websites blah blah blah! 

I use this guy http://www.alloymarketing.co.uk/

gives me really good results, and is very competitive on price

Thanks for your VERY honest post Billy

What do you consider competitive?

£30-£50?
£50-£100
£100+ ?

...and for how many leads?

[Rob Hall]

To All the Contributors and readers of this thread.

I need your assistance PLEASE.

Up until yesterday, I WAS the WEST YORKSHIRE TILE DOCTOR.

Russ, the owner of Tile Doctor has decided to terminate my contract with The Tile Doctor company, due to THIS THREAD.

Apparently, according to a message left on my mobile by Russ, I have been trying to recruit other TILE DOCTORS on this thread.
I have looked through this thread and nowhere does it say..."Wanted, TILE DOCTORS to work for me"
In fact POST NUMBER 32 actually says that I DO NOT want to employ anyone.

Am I missing something?
Have I given any Tile Doctors (or anyone else for that matter) the impression that I want you to work for me?

Do any of the readers/contributors to this thread understand the reason why I started this thread?
The title of this thread is "The Best Place to Advertise"
It does not say Attention Tile Doctors....Come and work for me"

 

Russ, I have tried to phone you, I have text you, I have emailed you, I have emailed Jeremy....you still have not explained why you think I am trying to recruit YOUR Tile Doctors??
Maybe you can explain HERE....
I am not really one for Dirty Washing in Public, but you give me no option as I have tried so many times to contact you without ANY reply or reason.

[AshWhite]

Just spend the money on adwords and advertise your own company individually.

[Rob Hall]

Just spend the money on adwords and advertise your own company individually.

Thank You ASH
Do you understand what I was TRYING to acheive, or have I given the wrong impression?

I am going to do what you suggest, I am in the process of a new website and will spend the money on optomising my own website.

[SteveAllan]

Hi Rob
Just do as Ash says and get on Adwords. I assume you have a database with your previous customers you have done work for that you got as a tile doctor, get on the phone to them send them a letter whatever to let them know your still about for ongoing work and referrals.
Having said all that I'm not surprised Russell had taken this action, you kind of undermined what he is doing with this thread, I'm not taking his side just an outsider looking in.
Chin up mate you don't need him onwards and upwards.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

[SteveAllan]

Alright Kev, are you in office Monday, I need some bits and bobs.

[Kev Martin]

Alright Kev, are you in office Monday, I need some bits and bobs.

In office as usual 8.30am on.  Tony is on holiday this week. 

Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Rob Hall]

Hi Rob
Just do as Ash says and get on Adwords. I assume you have a database with your previous customers you have done work for that you got as a tile doctor, get on the phone to them send them a letter whatever to let them know your still about for ongoing work and referrals.
Having said all that I'm not surprised Russell had taken this action, you kind of undermined what he is doing with this thread, I'm not taking his side just an outsider looking in.
Chin up mate you don't need him onwards and upwards.

Cheers Steve. I know what you mean, but my point is, I never asked anyone to come and work for me. He doesnt seem to understand what I was trying to do.

[Rob Hall]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

Cheers Kevin. That has crossed my mind too, I can see it getting ugly!

[Rob Hall]

Funny isn't it though, another day goes by and no explanation from Russ.
Come on Russ, at least have the decency to contact me, point out the bit where I was trying to employ Tile Doctors!!
I think you will find that there has been no such attempt.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

Cheers Kevin. That has crossed my mind too, I can see it getting ugly!

Rob

Nothing Ugly about it!  He takes money for leads then terminates that agreement for no reason???  Money Back!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Rob Hall]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

Cheers Kevin. That has crossed my mind too, I can see it getting ugly!

Rob

Nothing Ugly about it!  He takes money for leads then terminates that agreement for no reason???  Money Back!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

I totally agree Kevin, it costs a lot of money to be part of the set up.
Training is around £295,I seem to remember, then you have to buy the order forms, which I thought was a little strange, I am sure they were a few hundred pounds, then, I was asked to pay £85+vat/month to optimise 'my website'. The website is a page on the Tile Doctor website. This is where I got a bit fed up with shelling out loads of money for very little return, it just does not make good business sense. This is when I opened THIS thread on here to see what others were doing with their advertising budget.

Kevin, please can I ask you, does this thread suggest to you that I am trying to employ any Tile Doctors (as Russ puts it) and I have been accused of "collaborating" with his competitors....? Who? Which competitor? I have given him the chance to explain, but has choosen to ignore me. Why?

Come on Russ....have the decency to explain, after all, I spent a lot of money with you and I think you owe me an explanation.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

Cheers Kevin. That has crossed my mind too, I can see it getting ugly!

Rob

Nothing Ugly about it!  He takes money for leads then terminates that agreement for no reason???  Money Back!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

I totally agree Kevin, it costs a lot of money to be part of the set up.
Training is around £295,I seem to remember, then you have to buy the order forms, which I thought was a little strange, I am sure they were a few hundred pounds, then, I was asked to pay £85+vat/month to optimise 'my website'. The website is a page on the Tile Doctor website. This is where I got a bit fed up with shelling out loads of money for very little return, it just does not make good business sense. This is when I opened THIS thread on here to see what others were doing with their advertising budget.

Kevin, please can I ask you, does this thread suggest to you that I am trying to employ any Tile Doctors (as Russ puts it) and I have been accused of "collaborating" with his competitors....? Who? Which competitor? I have given him the chance to explain, but has choosen to ignore me. Why?

Come on Russ....have the decency to explain, after all, I spent a lot of money with you and I think you owe me an explanation.

Rob

I have to very careful here!  I do not want to appear to be exploiting this thread for my own gains!  Tile Doctor used to re bottle Aqua Mix Products and sell them as their own.  When Aqua Mix pulled out of the UK in November 2009 and I purchased the remains of the Liverpool Warehouse stock that meant he could not get anymore Aqua Mix Product.  He then resorted to other companies to replace the product!  The decision to change the products has been noticed from a performance point of view by a lot of people who have done his course.  Since the advent of us being appointed under contract as the new sole importer of Aqua Mix into the UK & Europe under that agreement the resale of Aqua Mix under any other name has been stopped by the owners of the product.  Which means he could sell the product again but could not re lable it!  I have never stopped or refused Russell from having the Aqua Mix Product but neither has he approached me.  I also think it is unlikely that he would do!!!

Ultimately he has read the the thread or been directed to it by someone!  I have reread the whole thread and see no direct competition or anything directed at Tile Doctor, however, I also feel it is unlikely he will answer you on an open Forum.  He clearly dislikes me intensly, after all he sees me as direct competition and therefore sees me as a threat.  On the reverse I do not see him as a threat to my business at all.   I imagine and I am only summising here that he sees the collaboration with competitors he mentions to you as me probably,  although this is clearly not true.

Personally if I were you I would just forget the whole thing and concentrate on your own business but the decision has to be yours!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[SteveAllan]

Rob
I assume from his point of view he is peeved that you explained on here that you felt your 80 odd quid a month was not good value. He is running it like a kind of franchise and in his opinion you have other motives.
Don't worry about it, you don't need him, spend your £80 a month on your own website. Get your Aquamix from Kev. I've never understood these networks as you have pointed out his customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

[Rob Hall]

Rob
I assume from his point of view he is peeved that you explained on here that you felt your 80 odd quid a month was not good value. He is running it like a kind of franchise and in his opinion you have other motives.
Don't worry about it, you don't need him, spend your £80 a month on your own website. Get your Aquamix from Kev. I've never understood these networks as you have pointed out his customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

Thank You Steve. I do intend to spend the £80 on my own website and even under the circumstances, I still have no intention of trying to employ a Tile Doctor, I think ANYONE would say that £80 a month is better spent on their OWN website NOT someone elses. I am very dissapointed with Russ that he has not explaind how and why he has drawn his conclusion.
Oh well...onwards and upwards eh?

[Kev Martin]

Rob

When we get jobs in that we don't want,  or that are not financially viable for us because of the distances involved we automatically offer the work out to others!  When there are no takers I offer the work on to the open forums including the CIU.  I will say at this juncture that I prefer to offer the work to people who have done our course because I am usually confident that they can deal with it.  (This does NOT Mean that if you have not done our course I believe that you are Unable to do it before someone takes this the wrong way).  The point I am trying to make is that we charge nothing for the referral however, I do feel that a finders fee is appropriate in relation to the value of the work but it is covered in the job!  This method is better than charging on a monthly basis.  In addition over the last 8 years or so I have never refused anyone free advice over the phone whether they are buying our products or not!  In fact on average I receive 20+ E Mails per week asking for advice and probably 50 + Telephone requests.  Either I or Tony answer each and every one!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Rob Hall]

Rob

When we get jobs in that we don't want,  or that are not financially viable for us because of the distances involved we automatically offer the work out to others!  When there are no takers I offer the work on to the open forums including the CIU.  I will say at this juncture that I prefer to offer the work to people who have done our course because I am usually confident that they can deal with it.  (This does NOT Mean that if you have not done our course I believe that you are Unable to do it before someone takes this the wrong way).  The point I am trying to make is that we charge nothing for the referral however, I do feel that a finders fee is appropriate in relation to the value of the work but it is covered in the job!  This method is better than charging on a monthly basis.  In addition over the last 8 years or so I have never refused anyone free advice over the phone whether they are buying our products or not!  In fact on average I receive 20+ E Mails per week asking for advice and probably 50 + Telephone requests.  Either I or Tony answer each and every one!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

...and thats the difference Kevin. You also have a brilliant range of Removers and Sealers. 
I have done your course and enjoyed it whilst learning a hell of a lot. I have spoken to Tony about buying a Levighetor and all the kit that goes with it, so I will seeing you about doing the grinding course.
On a certain "other" course, their way is to use HTC Hy-Brids to hone stone and remove lippage. Not a bad product at all for certain jobs but nowhere near the capabilities of a Levighetor.
That "other" course uses Twister Pads to do the polishing of Marble, I am not knocking Twisters, I use them sometimes, but polishing marble is best done with diamonds. You cannot get anywhere near the same results with Twisters, but "they" suggest them for "their" jobs. Each to their own eh?

I suppose, listening to what you and others are saying on here, I am better off out of the T... D..... ways of doing things and am better off putting my money into my own site.
Who knows what the future holds, as I am no longer in a contract with Russ, maybe it would not be a bad idea to start a rival business would it? What do you think Kevin?

[Rob Hall]

Rob

Don't take his actions to heart.  In addition you could reclaim all the fees you paid to Tile Doctor as well.  Because he has terminated your contract and technically you have done nothing wrong.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics

Cheers Kevin. That has crossed my mind too, I can see it getting ugly!

Rob

Nothing Ugly about it!  He takes money for leads then terminates that agreement for no reason???  Money Back!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

I totally agree Kevin, it costs a lot of money to be part of the set up.
Training is around £295,I seem to remember, then you have to buy the order forms, which I thought was a little strange, I am sure they were a few hundred pounds, then, I was asked to pay £85+vat/month to optimise 'my website'. The website is a page on the Tile Doctor website. This is where I got a bit fed up with shelling out loads of money for very little return, it just does not make good business sense. This is when I opened THIS thread on here to see what others were doing with their advertising budget.

Kevin, please can I ask you, does this thread suggest to you that I am trying to employ any Tile Doctors (as Russ puts it) and I have been accused of "collaborating" with his competitors....? Who? Which competitor? I have given him the chance to explain, but has choosen to ignore me. Why?

Come on Russ....have the decency to explain, after all, I spent a lot of money with you and I think you owe me an explanation.

Rob

I have to very careful here!  I do not want to appear to be exploiting this thread for my own gains!  Tile Doctor used to re bottle Aqua Mix Products and sell them as their own.  When Aqua Mix pulled out of the UK in November 2009 and I purchased the remains of the Liverpool Warehouse stock that meant he could not get anymore Aqua Mix Product.  He then resorted to other companies to replace the product!  The decision to change the products has been noticed from a performance point of view by a lot of people who have done his course.  Since the advent of us being appointed under contract as the new sole importer of Aqua Mix into the UK & Europe under that agreement the resale of Aqua Mix under any other name has been stopped by the owners of the product.  Which means he could sell the product again but could not re lable it!  I have never stopped or refused Russell from having the Aqua Mix Product but neither has he approached me.  I also think it is unlikely that he would do!!!

Ultimately he has read the the thread or been directed to it by someone!  I have reread the whole thread and see no direct competition or anything directed at Tile Doctor, however, I also feel it is unlikely he will answer you on an open Forum.  He clearly dislikes me intensly, after all he sees me as direct competition and therefore sees me as a threat.  On the reverse I do not see him as a threat to my business at all.   I imagine and I am only summising here that he sees the collaboration with competitors he mentions to you as me probably,  although this is clearly not true.

Personally if I were you I would just forget the whole thing and concentrate on your own business but the decision has to be yours!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

Kevin, again, thank you for your honesty. I wonder if Russ has read THE WHOLE THREAD?? I think not.
Coincidently, I had to use some 'alternative' products when I was on some of his jobs as I struggled, especially with the removal of Slate Seal.
Interesting, the point you make about USED to supply...Having used Aqua Mix Sealing and Coating Remover, I note IT WORKS!!

I suppose the easiest thing to do is put the whole episode behind me and move on. Until I get an explanation from Tile Doctor I will keep the thread alive. I would not want anyone to be in my position, having got me to spend all that money with them to be dumped out like this with NO REASON, I am not prepared to let it lie.

Again, I invite Russ to air his views HERE, give his side of the story. His message from him on my mobile accuses me of collaboration with a competitor and trying to employ HIS Tile Doctors, come on Russ, where is the evidence!!

[nice-n-white.co.uk]

a good quality flyer ,maybe to the more affluent areas in the beginning got all my work this way,unless you have cash its a slow process .This year built new site ,paid google premier took them two months to get 4 out of 15 keywords onto page one.Then new site with internal and external links better info,suddenly on page 1 for loads ,still no calls.

[Ian mott]

We advertise on the net, also local monthly magazine which gets distributed to about 40000 homes and businesses, these do really well