[davetherave]

Is it a bad idea to use a carpet wand on a hard floor even if you have a plastic carpet glide fitted on to it?

Just seems a pain in arse to have to buy a hard floor wand

[Kev Martin]

Hard Floor Wands are not the way to go!  If you are going to deal with Hard Floors then it is best to get the right equipment and forget Carpet Cleaning Gear.  You need:

1.  A decent Mono Rotary (it does not need to be new to start).
2.  A good quality wet vac (again around £130ish)
3.  A decent Kentucky Mop Bucket on wheels

The rest will come with time.

Hard Floor Wands,  using Portables, TM's or Spinners are a waste of time and you will end up wrecking them!

[davetherave]

thanks for the reply Kevin

[derek west]

Hi Dave. if you are starting on a budget then you can use a glide on a wand but remember that it will wear it down eventually and they are not cheap plus you will put scratches on it that will make it less effective on carpets.
You could buy a hard floor and carpet wand none from john kelly at restoremate  http://www.restormate.co.uk/epages/15094.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15094/Products/5088

hope this helps.

[Kev Martin]

thanks for the reply Kevin

You are welcome.  Many CC's make the mistake of believing they can adapt CC equipment like HFW & Spinners / SX12 etc to hard floor cleaning.  The fact is, experience of HF Cleaning has proved that keeping everything isolated works best.  I also don't know one single professional full time floor restorer who uses that equipment.

Kevin

[Mike Halliday]

thanks for the reply Kevin

You are welcome.  Many CC's make the mistake of believing they can adapt CC equipment like HFW & Spinners / SX12 etc to hard floor cleaning.  The fact is, experience of HF Cleaning has proved that keeping everything isolated works best.  I also don't know one single professional full time floor restorer who uses that equipment.

Kevin

These are not an 'adaption' but specific, made for purpose hard floor cleaning tools.

they are not carpet cleaning tools but like the name suggest...... hard floor wands (HFW)

[Kev Martin]

Mike

There you have it!!

"These are not an 'adaption' but specific, made for purpose hard floor cleaning tools."

HFW's and Spinners as far as I am aware are adapters designed specifically to run off TM's and Portables to allow CC's to clean some hard floors! 
They are not (Correct me if I am wrong) designed for the use of Honing Powders, Grinding Slurry or applying or extracting Powerful Chemicals!  Any CC IMHO who uses these tools (even occasionally) for such things is risking their very expensive Portable or TM for the sake of a Vac that costs around a £130  and a Rotary that can cost as little as £250-300 second hand.  Furthermore HF Cleaning / Restoration should be isolated to the room being restored as opposed to having hoses running through a house that can very quickly (in inexperienced hands) get covered in slurry or chemical and do untold damage to Carpets or similar.

If you are serious about Professional HF Cleaning, repairs, restoration and sealing then it is simple you need to begin:
Mono Rotary Slow Speed, Professional Wet Vac and a decent size Kentucky Mop Bucket on wheels.  All the rest will come with time.  Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

[Mike Gwilliam]

Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

I've been using a hard floor wand and extraction machine for years with no damge to equipment or property. The HWE machine stays outside which is where the slurry goes. No using buckets or rinsing and wringing mops.

I would imagine it could be difficult cleaning some deeper grout lines with a mop and vac, whereas it's easy with an extraction wand.

Have you ever tried a HFW Kevin?

[Kev Martin]

Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

I've been using a hard floor wand and extraction machine for years with no damge to equipment or property. The HWE machine stays outside which is where the slurry goes. No using buckets or rinsing and wringing mops.

I would imagine it could be difficult cleaning some deeper grout lines with a mop and vac, whereas it's easy with an extraction wand.

Have you ever tried a HFW Kevin?

Mike

Yes I have tried a HFW, A grout Wand, SX12, SX15, Mosmatic FSC both 21" & 12" both with Vacuum Extraction Port Connected to a 300 Bar Falch Pressure Washer and a 3600 Watt Triple Motor Professional Vacuum with pump out. 

The mop bucket and Mop is not used for cleaning either, the Rotary does that!  If you believe a HFW can deep clean heavily stained grout as well as a Rotary fitted with the correct brush then you are mistaken!  Have you ever tried to get old sealer up with a HFW?  Have you seen what thick old sealer will do to your Portable or TM?  I have pulled old cured sheets of sealer out of the bottom of a wet vac 2 inches thick!!!  Imagine what that would do to a TM or Porty!!!  Have you ever done a comparison?

The reply to the post is based on a lot of experience of Honing, Grinding, Repairing, Cleaning, Restoring and Sealing of 100,000+M2 of hard floors of every single type I can think of! 

The whole point is Mike I don't care what you or other people use!  I also didn't say don't use a HFW, Portable or TM my advice is,  that if you want to offer Hard Floor Cleaning and Restoration as a serious part of your Portfolio then purchase dedicated equipment!

[derek west]

Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

I've been using a hard floor wand and extraction machine for years with no damge to equipment or property. The HWE machine stays outside which is where the slurry goes. No using buckets or rinsing and wringing mops.

I would imagine it could be difficult cleaning some deeper grout lines with a mop and vac, whereas it's easy with an extraction wand.

Have you ever tried a HFW Kevin?

I'm with you Mike, been using my truckmount for years with an SX12 and its far superior to a wet pick up, looks more professional too IMO.

[Kev Martin]

Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

I've been using a hard floor wand and extraction machine for years with no damge to equipment or property. The HWE machine stays outside which is where the slurry goes. No using buckets or rinsing and wringing mops.

I would imagine it could be difficult cleaning some deeper grout lines with a mop and vac, whereas it's easy with an extraction wand.

Have you ever tried a HFW Kevin?

I'm with you Mike, been using my truckmount for years with an SX12 and its far superior to a wet pick up, looks more professional too IMO.

That is a statement from someone who has never used a Professional Wet Vac   

[derek west]

Anyone who risks their expensive  Portable or TM for the sake of around £500 should stick to CCing and just CLEANING the odd hard floor.

I've been using a hard floor wand and extraction machine for years with no damge to equipment or property. The HWE machine stays outside which is where the slurry goes. No using buckets or rinsing and wringing mops.

I would imagine it could be difficult cleaning some deeper grout lines with a mop and vac, whereas it's easy with an extraction wand.

Have you ever tried a HFW Kevin?

I'm with you Mike, been using my truckmount for years with an SX12 and its far superior to a wet pick up, looks more professional too IMO.

That is a statement from someone who has never used a Professional Wet Vac

Just to clarify, i have used  professional wet pick up before, 

[Billy Russell]

yep, i'm with Mike and Derek on this one, there are times I use my professional wet vac, but most of the time I use a spinner or hard floor wand

[Kev Martin]

Once again I didn't  say don't use them,  I said to the OP I wouldn't .  The whole point is the 3 of you are CC's and therefore that is why you use HFW, Spinners, TM and Portables  because you have them!   If you were just entering the HFC industry with no experience I wonder how many of you would run out and buy a Portable or even a TM?  Then what? a HFW and or a SX 15 to go with them???  At the end of the day you only need to Spend £5-600 to start HFC or around £1600 if you want everything new.

[Billy Russell]

you didn't just say you wouldn't use them, you said and I quote............

"Hard Floor Wands are not the way to go"

"Hard Floor Wands,  using Portables, TM's or Spinners are a waste of time and you will end up wrecking them!"

and also going from the op's original post

Is it a bad idea to use a carpet wand on a hard floor even if you have a plastic carpet glide fitted on to it?

I would make an assumption he is also a carpet cleaner.

So, perhaps he might like an opinion from other carpet cleaners as well as hard floor restorers on what they find best to use, what do you think?

[Tony Stewart]

Hi Kevin
Sorry but I totally disagree with you. I have just cleaned a hard floor in a factory this last weekend and used a Rocky with a pad and an alkaline cleaner and a spinner. No way would I use honing powder on a floor as it disrupts the surface. I took a wet vac with me and started to use the wet vac and then used the spinner. The difference was unbelievable. I used 2000 psi and hot water. The speed with which it was cleaned was unbelievable and it allowed my son and I to earn a great rate per hour and the company to obtain a great price due to the productivity that we could achieve. I could probably have just put down the alkaline cleaner let it dwell for a bit and used a spinner. On the altro floor we cleaned that could probably have worked too.
You could have cleaned that floor with a melamine pad. You cvould have cleaned that floor with a tilemaster machine.....the're are lots of ways to do that.
No I wouldn't use my truckmount to pick up slurry containing diamond grit ot honing powder ( but I have a lint hog and that certainly caught all the sludge and clay when I used it to clean some indoor tennis courts). It collected it in the bottom compartment of the lint hog and I then have another filter on the truckmount leading into the waste tank.
As for the grout again I beg to differ. I did a workman's café and again an alkaline degreaser and spun it off. The hot water jets get right in to the porous crevices and suck up the soiling. Everyone says be careful because the grout can pop, but if you inspect it first and its in that sort of state then you would point that out to the customer and have the grout redone. The big trucmounts are designed for that very purpose in mind.
I am sure that the contract cleaning guys on the other channel connect their pressure washers up to whirlaways and blast the dirt out just with the hot water, and no chemical solution at all. They don't have to worry about the water recovery as they are outside.
As for being a serious hard floor restorer I agree..........but not everyone wants a restoration. They mainly want a clean. Even with the serious floor restoration people there are different ways to "restore" some floors. As forDave the Rave  using a carpet cleaning wand with a glide............go for it. Get a little Victor rotary too for £100. Be careful of damaging to bottom and if you get a good result then be pleased and maybe just maybe you may want to try doing something that is a bit harder........then you may want to go on a course or buy some different pads....you may want to have a truckmount or go down the route of tackling hard floors in a different way. There are lots of floors and lots of options. Some are better than others, some work quicker and some are slower. There are millions of acres of floors out there from carpets to vinyl to stone, many just need a clean and some need more, but there is room for everything and everyone in this trade. Enjoy it but lets not knock it.

[derek west]

I think if i was just starting out and i knew what i know now, plus money was no object i would definitely have a truckmount and a spinner and obviously a rotary that would take weight.

If i was on a budget then yeah, probably go for a wet vac and a tilemaster.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Come on guys this is about hard floor cleaning and not restoration work, a simple solution to these problems if you think about it and no need to be spending big money, forget about high alkaline based cleaners these harsh and aggressive cleaners are what cause the problems in the first place as they just grind the soils into the surface from continuous use, honing powder dose not matter which grit they just create a mess.
compressed melamine mop or floor pads which are far more effective and less messy than honing powder. a non-caustic and non-corrosive cleaning solution, microfiber floor cloths to finish off and you are done, this combination can't be matched for performance and results.
Hard floor restoration is a different kettle of fish but in fairness when it comes to deep cleaning of hard floors the above mentioned method is quick effective with no mess and the products required are available from many different suppliers to give guys a choice. Tadgh

[Kev Martin]

We are currently undertaking right now a 300M2 Limestone sealer strip, deep clean and Reseal.   The floor is newly laid but had been badly sealed and all the natural beauty of the stone was lost under layers of sealer applied by someone who didn't have a clue.  Last October three companies were called in.  The client made it clear what he wanted i.e. his stone back with a natural look but sealed.  Each company had to submit RAMS.  One company were sent packing after telling him they would knock it out in 2 days. A test area was done by the second company (video by client) using an SX15 and hot water it didn't touch it.  Then they repeated using stripper, sx15 and hwe and it didn't touch it.  We went  in to do a test area, (we were also the only company to charge for TA) we applied PSRP HDT&G Cleaner and let it dwell 20 minutes then added some 400 grit Honing Powder agitated it with a soft to medium brush and it stripped the floor and the grout back to virgin stone.  We rinsed with pH neutral cleaner and then sealed with Miracle H20+ and the client was over the moon because he now had his Limestone back with the natural features, striations and fossils showing.  We were awarded the work.  The job will take 13-15 working days and we are on it right now.

So once again use what you like, spinners, TM,  portable, HFW,  tilemasters I really don't care!   Until someone can demonstrate and prove to me in a head to head demonstration (anyone?) their method is quicker, better and gives better results than I get.   I  will continue to use and teach my tried and tested methods that I know work and continue to earn Marblelife Limited a lot of money.

[Kev Martin]

So, perhaps he might like an opinion from other carpet cleaners as well as hard floor restorers on what they find best to use, what do you think?
[/quote]

Billy

I think Carpet Cleaners should continue to give their opinions as long as they are based on genuine experience of deep cleaning, tile & grout cleaning, transit wax and sealer removal and not just trying to prove that a spinner or a HFW worked when they washed a simple hard floor because anyone can do that with anything and get a result.

Kev

[Billy Russell]

Correct Kev,

Anyone can do that, but it's quicker with a Spinner or hard floor wand, restoration your talking about above I may very well take your route depending on I disagreeessment of the work in hand

Ps, you know full well I've had experience of the above work, if you were talking grinding floors then I would say no, have had no experience of that

[derek west]

thought we were discussing rinsing , which is only part of the process,  if we are discussing the rinsing part of the process, then nothing beats the speed of a truckmount connected to a hard floor wand,

[David Deer]

nothing beats the speed of a truckmount connected to a hard floor wand,

Gregomatic?

[derek west]

nothing beats the speed of a truckmount connected to a hard floor wand,

Gregomatic?

Possibly, cheers for sharing David, will have a good read up on them later.

[JandS]

Gregomatic looks interesting pity the video is in German....what price are these and who stocks them?

[Kev Martin]

Gregomatic looks interesting pity the video is in German....what price are these and who stocks them?

They are made in Switzerland!  I visited the factory a couple of years ago to look at importing them into the UK!  One look at the price was enough!  They were expensive then around the same cost as a good portable here for a Mid Sized one.  The problem with anything made in Switzerland is the tax implications. 

In fact I have just dug the price out!  The 18 Litre was £3950 + VAT

Levighetor Money!!!  So who wants one?

Incidentally I wasn't looking at them for floors!!!

[Mike Halliday]

The gregomatic  is a HWE  with an internal jet hard floor wand, there's nothing special about it.

the waffle about the water mixing with the vacuum  to create aggatation is just the same as any wand with an internal jet

It's exactly the system that Kev said is useless for cleaning hard floors   

Do you think they know that they  sell a system that is a waste of time, will wreck thier machine and is not up to the job of cleaning hard floors.... The fools 

[Kev Martin]

I will rephrase it for you:

HWE, FSC's coupled with Portables or TM's will clean dirty floors OK!  But that's it!

As soon as there is anything complicated involved on a Hard Floor they reach their limit and if you all want to use them for sucking up slurry, heavy sealer deposits or harsh chemicals I am of the opinion you will do damage to them!!!  At the end of the day I don't care what any of you use!  It your your money and your equipment not mine.  Is that clear enough   Finally if I thought they were better I would simply buy one and add it to the rest of my HF Equipment they are not even expensive compared to Professional HF Equipment!

[Billy Russell]

There you go Tony, that floor you did was ok

 

[David Deer]

The gregomatic  is a HWE  with an internal jet hard floor wand, there's nothing special about it.

It's actually a cold water system that uses no chemicals with a particular jet and closed skirt arrangement creating a closed vortex within the head. I have the 800 which was a snip at £9,000.
The factory is in Switzerland but the cheaper prices can be found in Germany and Denmark.
article here
manufacturers site
German supplier

To answer the initial question. Yes you can use a standard wand on a hard floor with a silicon glide  for normal cleaning if you want to. You will scratch (and may damage) the glide and the vacuum won't be anything near that of a proper floor tool. The floor tool gives you the ability to spray and suck up fluid but gives you better suction and nice squeegee so you can push the dirty water away from the extraction nozzles (LOL). So you might just as well get a George for half the cost of a wand.
If there is a lot of slurry or detritus you can possibly damage the hwe machine, pipes and wand. At the very least it will get mucky and you will definitely have to clean it thoroughly after use if you can ever get it clean. So, imagine if you clean a hard floor at 7 p.m. on Monday and have a carpet clean booked in Tuesday at 7 a.m. I am sure that there will be plenty of time to drive home, clean the machine, hose and wand ready for that beautiful snow white kosset carpet the following day. Strong chemicals can affect the unit with prolonged contact. So use it if you wish at your own risk.

Hard floor restoration is a totally different subject. Would I use my hwe to clean a dirty floor? Yes........ if I had no choice.
Would I use it to extract during marble floor restoration. Only if the client bought me new one!

[Mike Halliday]

 I stand corrected, it's not a hot water extractor it's a cold water extractor.

'Special jet' & 'closed skirt creating a vortex'. Yep just like  an internal jet wand

Is it a snip at £9k? I don't know if I can agree with that, I'm sure it will be a superb piece of equipment but that's I high price to pay for what it does.

We keep going back to restoration to belittle the use of a wand to rinse, no one is asking about marble restoration or grinding or anything else we can think of to  create the reason  why not to use a wand. 

As for using an extractor and its hoses to rinse a hard floor of dirty water (not slurry). good logistics will stop the hoses becoming soiled and the amount of rinsing solution applied by a  hard  floor tool will emulsify the soil to a degree that it will not harm the internal working of the hoses or the machine.

[Mike Halliday]

You have just got to read that first link!! What a load of marketing waffle!!

It's more creative than a Harry Potter book

[Kev Martin]

The gregomatic  is a HWE  with an internal jet hard floor wand, there's nothing special about it.

It's actually a cold water system that uses no chemicals with a particular jet and closed skirt arrangement creating a closed vortex within the head. I have the 800 which was a snip at £9,000.
The factory is in Switzerland but the cheaper prices can be found in Germany and Denmark.
article here
manufacturers site
German supplier

David

Can I ask why you purchased one?  We have Klindex Vertical Grinding & Polishing Systems primarily for Walls, Columns, Stair Strings etc.  I looked at the Gregomatic as an add on to clean walls and ceilings but could get no one to give me a decent demo.  I spoke to the Dealer in Duisburg NRW but he seemed only interested in the rental market but his prices were slightly lower and of course no VAT for us helps

Kev

[derek west]

Can i ask where all the proof is of truckmounts and professional HWE machines get damaged from hard floor cleaning, ive been using a truckmount on hard floors for 3 years now and have had no problems whatsoever, i also know a lot of guys in this industry that use portables to extract dirt off stone floors with no exceptional problems other than the norm we get from carpet cleaning,   the fact we add a lot of water when rinsing which  liquifies (check spelling) the dirt so it is not much different to sucking up  dirt from minging carpets, in fact ive cleaned a lot of carpets that were dirtier than  alot of hard floors ive had to tackle.

The fact i use a truckmount and have been doing so for a long time on hard floors makes me an authority on whether it works well or not,  and it works very well with (i say again) no pronblems with machine breakage.
Kev. how many truckmounts broke on you before you realised they were no good for this job? i take it you trialled them substantially to warrant your authoritive comments on the subject?

[Tony Stewart]

The original guy just wanted to know if he could use his wand on a hard floor. Just look at this thread and it just seems to be a bit bitter. This section in general has just ended up as two people fighting their own corners for products and taking the view "It's my way or the highway". It really should be about sharing experiences and information not someone making a statement and then being required to wear a tin hat. I have learned from this post about a Gregomatic which I did not know existed. On another point please don't rubbish carpet cleaners - many of the portables have the pressure to clean tile and grout. The truckmounts will clean them with more hot water and more power. Yes you could use a rotary or a brush and also honing powder but there are far far more hard floors be that from vinyl through to natural stone that just need a clean. The customer wants a clean and NOT a restoration. Not because of the price but because the floor itself has not got to the restoration stage. Just like a carpet many need a clean but many aren't at the salvage stage.
Just seems a pity that this section seems to not be a popular as the others. If we could have sensible discussion then do you know what more people would be inspired to ask questions and maybe ,just maybe, they might want to expand their business and come on a training course or buy some products to try out and have a go at some simple flooring and build up from there. Sorry if I sound as though I am complaining I am just trying to be honest in how I feel. I am still learning about hard floors and have been on five courses in the last 12 months.
But obviously I am just cleaning easy floors with a spinner.

[Billy Russell]

very well said Tony

and that floor looks ok as well 

[Kev Martin]

Tony

Read very carefully through my posts!  At no point have I knocked Carpet Cleaners if so where!  I have done nothing since day 1 on this forum other than offer good sound advice!  At no point during this thread have I pushed anything I sell.  The whole thread as I read it,  was about "Are wands any good for hard floors" which initially I responded with don't  bother be cause that was and still is my opinion.  I then conceded to those of you who said you could clean with them with the caveat that IN MY OPINION if you attempted any more  than simple cleaning you MAY damage your TM or Portable.

Yes this section has been wrecked and I got a lot of blame for it so I stopped giving advice.  Now people e mail me or phone with problems and I answer them privately.  I also no longer post advice on here because it gets bounced on!  What none of you seem to understand is that Marblelife Ltd are a successful FULL TIME Hard Floor Cleaning and Restoration  Specialist Company so somewhere we must have something right.  We don't jump around doing the odd carpet or window here and there and never have.  Furthermore, we don't know of, nor have we ever met a single Full Time Professional Floor Restorer in this  or any other Country who uses a TM or a Portable either!  So there you go this is my final post on this thread or any other thread requiring advice on floor cleaning or Restoration.   I will do it all on our helpline and by e mail from now on!

So to all of you using TM's Portables, HF wands, SX12/15's or Tilemaster especially those with experience I wish you all the best! 

P.S.  The fastest way to clean just a dirty floor like the one in the photos is with a Heavy Duty Battery Scrubber Drier

[JandS]

Well done for ping of an expert in his field and robbing the board of any advice and snippets of info that relative newbies  like myself find interesting and helpful.

[derek west]

Well done for ping of an expert in his field and robbing the board of any advice and snippets of info that relative newbies  like myself find interesting and helpful.

I usually just phone someone when i need one persons advice john,  whats the point in posting a question on a forum if you just want kevs advice.  Just ring him.

[JandS]

Not the advice derek as such just the postings in general....but hey ho there you go...well done

[Alex @ TileMaster]

Dave,
We use truckmounts, portables with gekko's and SX's (spinners), we also have wetvac’s. All have a place as would a cc wand so I would say you should give it a go with your wand and if it’s not right you can look at another tool.
Hope this helps
Kev,
You are a good guy and you shouldn’t stop giving advice, you have a wealth of knowledge which is good for the industry and has and still is helping people in the floorcare business sector. I know you have given the TileMaster system a hard time and that’s fine, however, if you understood you would possible have a different opinion. Anyway, my point isn’t about you not understanding the TileMaster system but about the fact you sometimes come across as it’s your way or the highway and that seems to get people’s backs up and that’s not good for you or the industry.
Just my point and I hope you don’t take the wrong way or stop helping on the forum.
Cheers
Alex

[Mike Gwilliam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfsbHl6Rdfs