[richywilts]

ive met up with a chap who i was introduced through a recruitment agency and we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

im certainly not an expert in the commercial side of window cleaning and struggling to know what to make this guy aware of in terms of knowledge/training for when hes meeting up with facilities managers and business owners/key decision makers etc

so im hoping some of the bigger guys who do major commercial can help me out

if you were taking on a sales rep what would be the main things you would be training him up on??

i am prepared before people moan i just want to make sure ive covered everything and not missed vital things

[lyndy]

Would they tell you?

[Rodger]

we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

That statement is an indication that your relationship is likely to fail from the word go mate. Sorry to be blunt but can't you work together and use the agency or is the paying element too much to swallow?

[supernova77]

we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

That statement is an indication that your relationship is likely to fail from the word go mate.

I agree... A bit unethical I think.

[Perfect Windows]

ive met up with a chap who i was introduced through a recruitment agency and we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

The agency have done their bit and you've decided not to pay them.  Interesting.

Vin

[richywilts]

they wanted £14 per hour to pay him £10

they were just sending me a number of candidates to interview for the job

[Rodger]

How would you propose an agency makes any money? Buy charging their clients out at the same rate that you are paying them?

[trevor perry]

they wanted £14 per hour to pay him £10

they were just sending me a number of candidates to interview for the job

how much do you pay your employees for every £14 they make

[Halfadaylee]

Richy,
You could of advertised for a rep yourself but didn't because of the hassle?
The agency have all the hassle to introduce him to you.
You then do a side deal. Your new rep must be as crooked as you.
Art

[richywilts]

??

[Perfect Windows]

Already looking forward to the next time you complain about a customer not paying you for work done.

Clearly you can't see anything wrong in what you're doing so this will go straight over your head, no doubt.

[combat1]

after many years recruiting sales people Richy my advice would be to be very careful. The term Business Development Manager seems to attract a certain breed who can talk the talk but when it comes to producing the goods its a different story, then they move on and the only loser is you. So set out clearly what you wish to achieve in terms of results and pay only on those results. i.e. make them earn bonus for results.
Good luck mate, hope it works out for you.

[richywilts]

Richy,
You could of advertised for a rep yourself but didn't because of the hassle?
The agency have all the hassle to introduce him to you.
You then do a side deal. Your new rep must be as crooked as you.
Art

ease off mate sure they have got other positions to fill i did explain i wasn't sure if i could afford there deal etc and id be happy if they sent any candidates along to me for a chat to see if they were what i was after

i sent a girl an enquiry over facebook she came down to see me and said she had someone in mind etc and would i be interested in meeting them i agreed, with her package i would be paying £560 a week which i cant afford, im taking a gamble at £10 per hour but ive got a good feeling with this chap

[combat1]

we know your good feelings Richy, be careful mate!

[robertphil]

does he look and sound suitably slimey ? if so ,go ahead .  

i personally would not take on a sales rep if he looked and sounded like a really nice friendly guy,likely would turnout to be a real snake in the grass , better to take on a sneaky looker   in my opinion

[Blue Frog Systems]

My friend has a recruitment company. He's just spent £500 sending 3 candidates to an interview ( Newcastle - London ) and the company want all 3 of them. Thing is there refusing to pay the finders fee my mates company is entitled to.

SHAME ON YOU RICHY IF YOU GO AHEAD WITH YOUR PLAN TO SCREW OVER THE COMPANY THAT HELPED YOU FIND THIS GUY !

[richywilts]

id quite happily pay a finders fee to the company just feel bit out of order

[Blue Frog Systems]

Whats out of order ?

[Rodger]

Didn't they tell you what you'd be paying if he was to be taken on?

[George P]

Richy,
You could of advertised for a rep yourself but didn't because of the hassle?
The agency have all the hassle to introduce him to you.
You then do a side deal. Your new rep must be as crooked as you.
Art

ease off mate sure they have got other positions to fill i did explain i wasn't sure if i could afford there deal etc and id be happy if they sent any candidates along to me for a chat to see if they were what i was after

i sent a girl an enquiry over facebook she came down to see me and said she had someone in mind etc and would i be interested in meeting them i agreed, with her package i would be paying £560 a week which i cant afford, im taking a gamble at £10 per hour but ive got a good feeling with this chap

if you knew you couldnt afford the weekly fees then you should have declined the offer of wasting there time and money in sending someone over to you, its not fair for anyone, im sure you wouldnt like people wasting your time, effort and money.

[AJ]

I dont think £14 ph is too bad when you consider NI, holiday pay etc + the reduced risk to yourself if he turns out to be half wit with a good line in BS.

[Archer]

I would be very carefull if i was you.

Whats to say, that he has basically gone behind the agencys back but he wont go behind yours ?


Example being, if you where to pay him a basic salary and then increase possibly incentives on performance whats stopping him taking your basic salary and then being approached by another window cleaner who offers him good money for potential customers ?

It goes on, trust me on that


I would seriously have a good think what can he do for your business that you cannot do yourself ?

[richywilts]

i take on board what your saying chris im flexible on the pay structure etc with him and will place a bonus structure in place etc but we both agreed were not going to expect many contract for a couple of months as its going to be groundwork being made with contacts etc getting key decision makers name number and emails for larger contract, then hopefully begin getting appointments but we are going to target smaller businesses i,e kids nurserys and shops and small offices to get ball rolling and get a few coming in.

this guy worked for a liverpool based van and car tracking business until they sold up and compant relocated, he came across with a plan of how he would like to begin building the business after being prepped by the agency and found it impressive.

hes been working as a courier recently and this is the type of sales role he enjoy building up small companies

i could do this role myself im sure but motivation and sales skills i have would prob take me a year to bring in as much work as i expect nick to bring in in 3-4 months.

im not a great talker give me a pen and paper and i can express myself but chatting to strangers im quite introvert even tho i have knowledge i find it difficult to engage and put case across in an interesting way

[Small but perfectley formed]

We did this years ago the guy was a waste of space basically took our basic salary whilst building his own sales in janitorial.
Why dont you try the telesales that was advertising on here small campaign for £300 I think , they specialise in cleaning services appointments?

[Dave Willis]

So that will be two of you spinning around in the office chairs all day?

Have I read all this before somewhere?

Don'f forget you'll need a pretty secretary too.

[Neil Gornall]

Did this guy have a contract with the agency? If so he could find himself in trouble and drag you in too so I would be careful.

Personally I think what you are doing is wrong although I understand your motives as lack of funds can be a problem when wanting to move forward.

Trouble is I wonder how you would react if any guys you employ starting cleaning your customers houses at weekends and cutting you out of the deal? The principle is the same.

I hope the guy works out for you but I have a feeling it could all go wrong.

[Smudger]

good move Richy doing an underhand side deal and then posting it on an open forum ! 

Carrie was in recruitment for years and all candidates sign a contract they can also prove they
introduced you not only could you be liable for all the fees and costs ( both of you ) but you
may find other penalties arise.

i think it will all end in tears, if this guy was any good he'd be in demand and headhunted NOT trying to
stiff the agency out of their fee's.

Darran

[richywilts]

ive met up with a chap who i was introduced through a recruitment agency and we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

im certainly not an expert in the commercial side of window cleaning and struggling to know what to make this guy aware of in terms of knowledge/training for when hes meeting up with facilities managers and business owners/key decision makers etc

so im hoping some of the bigger guys who do major commercial can help me out

if you were taking on a sales rep what would be the main things you would be training him up on??

i am prepared before people moan i just want to make sure ive covered everything and not missed vital things

Although I've not tried your approach, after trying several things down the years, I've come to the conclusion that the person who knows my own business the best is me.  There are plenty of guys in fancy suits who talk a better brand of English than I can manage but people being what they are, their own self interest always takes precedence.  I've found that back to basics is the best for me.  To canvass my own work (if required), clean it, dump customers who want to control too much (and cost me time/money in the process).  Taking window cleaners on for employment is all very well but the majority of them are a liability.  Most will take the mick one way or another.
If you are starting out with an agency guy who wants to dump the agency, that's bad karma straight away IMO and if he causes you to fall flat on your face, you'd be getting exactly what you deserve.  Is there away of taking him part time via the agency?  Or, at the very least, paying the agency rate for a short while (until he's proven his worth), then paying them so that you can keep him.  It sounds to me as if a full timer like this would be a massive drain on resources unless he's also prepared to change out of his suit  to clean windows.
I wish you well in your endeavours and respect what you're trying to achieve.  However, although it's hard to be certain on a forum, it sounds like you keep repeating the same mistake - trying to run before you walk and as soon as you earn something decent, make your business too top heavy on expenditure.  I do appreciate that it's better to spend some money on business expansion in preference to paying it out in tax - but not if that expenditure leaves you up the creek without a paddle.

the situation is i have three vans to go out cleaning because i had a domestic canvasser who was pulling in 50-60 customers a week hes now in jail!!! so i have three vans two being used one spare going out doing odd bit of adhoc work no major extra cost really as insurance is same price as before as now on fleet insurance, ive got two options take on a canvasser and keep having to clean crap work at crap prices where they can cancel after 2-3 cleans and drag payments out and have to take on another window cleaner which i have to train up to my standards etc etc which takes time

or second option is go after commercial work and try and get a 50/50 split domestic and commercial, i dont consider myself a professional salesman, im not great at telesales, so appointments will few and far, im not great at asking for business and closing deals and asking to sign contracts etc im not a great talker im quite quiet. but what i am quite good at is window cleaning to high standards so im quite prepared to go out window cleaning again, i have a part time admin assistant now who can run the office three days a week

so this is the reason ive decided to go down this route, also if i get office blocks and apartment blocks etc i can take on cheaper labour i.e if someone doesnt possess a driving licence, younger lad who i can supervise

[Neil Gornall]

Richy,
Off topic slightly, sorry,
you say you have fleet insurance. Who is it with? I am with swinton and have been told I can only get fleet insurance on 5 vans and above. I currently have 3, maybe 4 soon.

[richywilts]

its with autonet insurance any driver over 25 with up to 7 points thats for three vans

think premium finance are the underwriters or aviva or sumfin

[AJ]

If you are going to go down the BDM route, I think it would be wise to get one that knows your industry inside out.
You really want him to get leads, follow leads and close deals and have a proven track record. There is not much point in him getting leads then passing them on to you to quote and close them, especially on a wage. He will be basically doing a cold callers job.
If he does start pricing work that he knows nothing about, you could well end up with whole stack of under priced work that you will ultimately have to look after.
If you pull someone in from within the cleaning industry, he/she will often have a 'little black book' of clients that can be called on immediately.

Have a look at this company, they have a good list of contract cleaning BDM's in all areas with CV's and track records.
If you give them a call they will send you email updates when candidates come on the market.

www.humres.co.uk

[Neil Gornall]

its with autonet insurance any driver over 25 with up to 7 points thats for three vans

think premium finance are the underwriters or aviva or sumfin

Great thank you

[Ian101]

Richy Im out canvassing for commercial work starting mid of next week for about 5 straight days ... if I come across owt too big for me I will give you a call 

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

Richy Im out canvassing for commercial work starting mid of next week for about 5 straight days ... if I come across owt too big for me I will give you a call 

what n not me 

[Ian101]

Richy Im out canvassing for commercial work starting mid of next week for about 5 straight days ... if I come across owt too big for me I will give you a call 

what n not me 

im anyones for free food 

[Approved]

Richy get in the real world, if you want a decent business development manager, you will be looking at around £50k a year, to grow your business

[Ian101]

Richy get in the real world, if you want a decent business development manager, you will be looking at around £50k a year, to grow your business

For £50k ..... im in !

[mlscontractcleaner]

I love reading these posts.
It would appear that the lad's ambition or opinion of his own abilities far outways reality.
Please keep posting lad as it makes me feel better about myself :

[Erithwc]

I reckon richy is just one of those people that love's to have a good wind up  

Paul

[AuRavelling79]

So that will be two of you spinning around in the office chairs all day?

Have I read all this before somewhere?

Don'f forget you'll need a pretty secretary too.

Harsh, very harsh; but oh so true ...

I think that richy and the new guy will last three months tops. No make that two and one half - they'll have parted ways by Xmas.

[richywilts]

Richy get in the real world, if you want a decent business development manager, you will be looking at around £50k a year, to grow your business

look i dont care really what title it comes with business development manager/sales executive/head of sales operations, i just went with what the recruitment company basically described the position as i couldnt give two hoots what ever the sales person wants to call himself to feed there ego

im taking on a sales person who will be collating data, carrying out telemarketing/ making appointments and closing deals end of why would 50k be bandied round for a sales person maybe 18-30k

[Approved]

You need to employ some one with experience in sales in this field, whats the point of paying £20k a year to an ex double glazing salesman, who has no contacts, when they come across from other cleaning or facilitie companies, they bring all their contacts with them, if you want to end up with the corner shop carry on, im just advising, you from experience.

[Frankybadboy]

big john as spoken


you tell him johnny boy

[richywilts]

You need to employ some one with experience in sales in this field, whats the point of paying £20k a year to an ex double glazing salesman, who has no contacts, when they come across from other cleaning or facilitie companies, they bring all their contacts with them, if you want to end up with the corner shop carry on, im just advising, you from experience.

ive not got a budget for an experienced person on 50k tho who has experience in this field its a trial for three months so we can see where it takes us,

[Dave Willis]

Richy have you done the maths on this? How many unproductive employees can you support and for how long?
18k or 50k is a massive amount of cash to put by from your business. I bet your own personal takings are way, way below 50k after paying staff etc etc. Good on you for thinking big but I'm not sure you are going the right way about it.

[William McCafferty]

Richy

I am afraid that this plan is doomed to failure and with your attitude to running a business in the same league as "Scrooge" all of your other endevours are also doomed.

You think nothing of breaking employment laws or using other companies to get you staff that you want and as soon as they do you do a deal behind their back.

You want to work your cleaners to death and pay them the  bearest minimum that you can get away with.

If this salesman/manager is any good, how long do you think it will take him to realise that if he partners up with your best cleaner, he can get the customers, the cleaner will clean them and they will split the money 50/50

Running a business that you want to be sucessful cannot be done on the cheap.

Have a rethink

[Gary f]

Cashflow destroyed waiting to be paid and with high wages of salesman and trying to get staff, best of British hope your Bank supports assive overdrafts. Would do 1 get work and get forat right and then add further with right pricing in place unless your Manager can guarantee extra returns and how?

If you use Agency you can cancel@ short notice and let them prove what they can do and make informed decision.

[AJ]

50k p/a should bring you in 10x +
18k p/a to someone who doesnt know the industry = -18k

You also have to realise that you must supply the bdm with all the tools to complete his job successfully. All the H&S paperwork and qualifications that commercial companies require, the knowledge that he is not wasting his time when filling in PQQ's along with the financial reassurance and staffing levels to complete the business he secures without making him look a nob.
A good rep wants to earn as much money as possible, so he will be interviewing you, not the other way round and if he can only sell himself for 20k pa, he's not very good at selling.

Look before you leap is the best advice out there.

[richywilts]

50k p/a should bring you in 10x +
18k p/a to someone who doesnt know the industry = -18k

You also have to realise that you must supply the bdm with all the tools to complete his job successfully. All the H&S paperwork and qualifications that commercial companies require, the knowledge that he is not wasting his time when filling in PQQ's along with the financial reassurance and staffing levels to complete the business he secures without making him look a nob.
A good rep wants to earn as much money as possible, so he will be interviewing you, not the other way round and if he can only sell himself for 20k pa, he's not very good at selling.

Look before you leap is the best advice out there.

i understand that im going to begin with smaller jobs at first kids nurseries, bed and breakfasts, small hotels etc break him in gently whilst training him on the larger works and whats required etc i will be sending him on courses etc to learn health and safety and whats required

im not going to be going for contracts that require pqq just yet maybe next summer for that

ive just signed up for building industry data leads and the package is fantastic i pay 40quid per county which i have chosen 4 of cheshire merseryside north wales and lancashire and at click of a few buttons can see what building projects are being constructed, who has won contract, value of the project, estimated completetion date, all the sun contractors etc etc from architect to the ground worker

i can type in a post code and radius and it will fire up hundreds of projects

this tool will help us push builders cleans which could then lead us on to securing the actual contracts

ive got an ex business coach/,mentor who ran a £5,000,000 contract cleaning company for advice and back up etc to bring in to train him up also

[Rodger]

RichyWilts why don't you answer some of the more 'searching' questions that are posed to you? Is it because you can't?

[richywilts]

RichyWilts why don't you answer some of the more 'searching' questions that are posed to you? Is it because you can't?

which questions would they be rodger?

[Dave Willis]

Richy, how do you actually pay these people? I get the impression you have very little spare cash most weeks. So you take a guy on and say he doesn't pick up work straight away (which he won't) - how will you pay his wages? Have you got a business loan or something? How do you manage the cash flow? How do you cope with the VAT too? It would frighten the life out of me.
What would also worry me is the fact that most of these contracts will already have cleaners anyway - they aren't there for the taking. How will you convince them to change to you - will you be cheaper or more professional or something?

Your wages + the rep + the secretary + the two vans (four workers?) - you must have a wage bill of nearly 100 grand a year. Assuming you are on 40k to 50k Which most very good single operatives seem to be on before they have to expand.

[Paul H]

Richy

You mentioned the types of business you are going to target etc.. nurseries etc...

Get yourself a little brochure made

send it out

back it up with a phone call , visit free demo etc..

or if you have a desire to employ and pay someone.. get yourself a nice telesales girl to call these places find out the decision maker and send them the brocure covering letter etc...book your demos etc...

This may open some doors you are clearly chasing after whilst being a bit more cost effective for yourself...

Its about getting a retrun on your investment mate...and lashing 18 , 20 , 25k + on someone straight off may not be answer for you...... just yet

i admire your vision and desire though

[Rodger]

RichyWilts why don't you answer some of the more 'searching' questions that are posed to you? Is it because you can't?

which questions would they be rodger?[

This one

we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

That statement is an indication that your relationship is likely to fail from the word go mate. Sorry to be blunt but can't you work together and use the agency or is the paying element too much to swallow?

This one.

How would you propose an agency makes any money? Buy charging their clients out at the same rate that you are paying them?

This one.

Whats out of order ?

This one

Didn't they tell you what you'd be paying if he was to be taken on?

And this one.

Richy have you done the maths on this?

And some of the other comments although not necessarily posed as questions if would be polite of you to respond to them.

[richywilts]

RichyWilts why don't you answer some of the more 'searching' questions that are posed to you? Is it because you can't?

which questions would they be rodger?[

This one

we have decided we would like to work together and cut out the agency

That statement is an indication that your relationship is likely to fail from the word go mate. Sorry to be blunt but can't you work together and use the agency or is the paying element too much to swallow?

why is this statement an indication that relationship is likely to fail, yes the paying element from ther off of £14 per hour is a bit to much to swallow for a small business, ok it looks like i have done the dirty on the agency but i had voiced my concerns that there prices were to expensive and i would struggle but she was quite adamant to send this guy down to chat to me, and to be fair we got on well he ticked the boxes i was after but i still couldnt justify spending £14 to the agency . so i explained to him situation i was in that i thought he would do great but i couldnt not justify spending that much. we agreed to bring him in lower wage for first couple of months whilst learning ropes he was really keen to get bk into sales job as thats what he enjoys.so thats how it happened too answer your question rodger yes it was too much too swallow

This one.

How would you propose an agency makes any money? Buy charging their clients out at the same rate that you are paying them?

im fully aware that agencys have to make there money at first it was a general enquiry they came to see me i explained what i may be after then she wanted to begin sending me candidates straight away all in space of couple of days even after me voicing my concerns that it was doubtful i cud afford there fees

This one.

Whats out of order ?

This one

Didn't they tell you what you'd be paying if he was to be taken on?

yes they did rodger and i did warn her that it was out my price range

And this one.

Richy have you done the maths on this?

ive not number crunched it no but i know where i want my business to go and i know what i can afford and i know what risks im prepared to take to succeed look i know a lot on here are small one man bands but i never dreamt of being that i do see why it appeals to some and some days i wish i had just stuck there but i had a vision of what i wanted and im sticking to my guns ive had a lot of bad luck along the way but i dont see a huge change by next summer i will review my business and look to wind it down
And some of the other comments although not necessarily posed as questions if would be polite of you to respond to them.