[Sarah Sarill]

This industry is definately male dominated but is that because women cant or dont want to w/c. ?

Much has been written here about staffing problems, heavy equipment and husband & wife partnerships but is it really possible.

Are backpacks the answer (Tosh seems to think even they are too heavy for women when full) ?

Is there any equipment out there specifically made for womens body frames ?

Do you employ women ? and if so nhat are the benefits/pitfalls ?

Finally, why are there so few women posters on this site or are they the brains behind the braun ?

Have fun with this one guys although it is a serious question.  I am really looking at using wfp downstairs on commercial so any advice really appreciated.

Sarah

[AuRavelling79]

Some off the wall thoughts.

Generally speaking, their size 5 shoes will trample less flowers than my size 10's.
Householders might feel less intimidated when a five foot six lady turns up compared with a six foot bloke with broken nose and cauliflower ear.

Unless they're complete chavs their diction and writing skills are better than men's. e.g.

Lovely Lady Window Cleaners:-

"A cup of coffee would be lovely, thank you. Mmmmm, Douw Egberts, that's super! How do you keep your garden so nicely and how's young Saffron doing at playgroup - and how's Algernon's eczema? How do you keep so trim? Oooh, I know! etc etc."

Raggit and Scarper Blokey Window Cleaners:-

"Cuppa char luv - four sugars ta - corrr! Thassa bit strong innit - (burrrp!)  Sorry abaht yer bizzie lizzies Missus, yew wanna concrete it over. Flippin' soft kids! Need a good slap thass'all. Giz a f a g (coff coff). Wayhay! (Raggit nudges Scarper) Look at the figger on that!" - (belch!)

Better image see! 

[AuRavelling79]

No probs! I've deleted my reply.

[matt]

you forgot the option

How can they clean windows from the kitchen sink ?? ?? ? ??




we need a word with your hubby, letting you leave the kitchen sink and all that 

[windows_chepstow]

Wor Lass is a great window cleaner but she has her limitations.

She's a marathon runner (she ran 17 miles this morning for a training run); but she's only 5' 1" tall.  Doesn't weigh much either, so lacks any real physical strength.

She just can't handle a large set of ladders.  I've asked her to hold onto mine numerous times and she's struggled to do that.

Also, a backpack full of water must weigh around 25 kilos; that's about 55 pounds; heavy for a strong bloke to cart around all day (although it does get lighter as you use the water).

Wor Lass probably could re-fill one from a 25 liter water barrell - with a struggle -and tow it round in trolley, but she definately couldn't hump it around.

So the above are her weak points, but she has her good points too.

She can do ground floor no problems, especially assisted by a set of seven foot A Frames.  A bit slow, no fussing; she just cracks on.

New customers tend to approach her; not me.

She has no qualms about climbing up a ladder, once I've positioned it and goes over numerous garage roofs during the course of our round.

She's good at the 'chat' like MalcG says, which frees me up to work.

She keeps an eye on my standards too.

But I wouldn't 'employ her'.  She's just physically unable to do all aspects of the job by herself.

I think if we had a good van mounted system which meant no hauling round 25 litre barrells of water; then a woman could.

If not, then it would take a strong lass; not your average type of woman.

[thewindowcleaner1]

I'm all for it, will be looking for a couple of lassies next year as I plan to set a van up for a couple of ladies to work from, I think as long as I keep the jobs to normal domestic they should have no problems, the only ladder work they would encounter would be on flat roofs and to get access to the rear of property (to unlock gate),

I think they will create a niche for them selfs in the market,and because they are two females doing a traditionaly male job the publicity will be priceless.

Go for it girls...

Alan

[H h20]

I'm all for it, will be looking for a couple of lassies next year as I plan to set a van up for a couple of ladies to work from, I think as long as I keep the jobs to normal domestic they should have no problems, the only ladder work they would encounter would be on flat roofs and to get access to the rear of property (to unlock gate),

I think they will create a niche for them selfs in the market,and because they are two females doing a traditionaly male job the publicity will be priceless.

Go for it girls...

Alan

come on Alan tell us the real reason about the ladys 

[brett walker]

Equal rights, i say let the women come out and do the window cleaning wfp,  i think we will see more women window cleaners as time goes on.

They can do the house work when they get home 

regards

Brett

[thewindowcleaner1]

come on Alan tell us the real reason about the ladys 

At my age I'm a dedicated window shopper...
Like looking at stylish cars but only having a worn out three wheeler to drive

[H h20]

come on Alan tell us the real reason about the ladys 

At my age I'm a dedicated window shopper...
Like looking at stylish cars but only having a worn out three wheeler to drive

I hope for your sake Alan your misses don`t read that lol 

[thewindowcleaner1]

I hope for your sake Alan your misses don`t read that

I doubt it she still has'nt learnt how to turn the heating on (in her defence we've only had the boiler for 6 years)

She used to come on the round with me until she fell of the btm rung of some steps and broke her wrist (and that was before the WHD )

[Simon Carter]

A serious reply as it is an interesting question. I have one woman opeartive & one who has just started. The first is no good with heights, but the same is true of a lot of men. She also struggles with anything other than a light weight 18 foot pole, even through she isn't a female of the petite variety. The second one who went out for the first time on Friday said that it was more physically demanding than she expected. Previoulsy she was doing ladscape gardening. She's 26 & fit & strong for a girl.
The short answer is that there is no real reason why a woman shouldn't be a window cleaner, it's just that a smaller percentage of woman will be up to it in comparison to men. Moreover, not many women would want to, which is a shame as for the right one, it's an excellent opportunity, especially on the domestic side. Name another job where within reason, you can start when you want, finnish when you want & take a day of if necessary with no notice. Tremendous flexibility for someone with a young family to think about.
The advent of the water fed pole makes it even more viable. I certainly would happily recruit a woman who I thought could do the job. In fact I think I would do so out of preference.

[thewindowcleaner1]

The advent of the water fed pole makes it even more viable. I certainly would happily recruit a woman who I thought could do the job. In fact I think I would do so out of preference.

I believe they in the main are more critical of the finnish than males

[busydaffodil]

Good reply Simon.  Was starting to think Sarahs question had opened the floodgates to the hidden darker side here!  Oink      Now I'm probably going to get a warning for that!!

OK OK OK  I KNOW your all joking!!!      

Seriously though, a woman employee on a window cleaning team could make potential customers come onboard quicker.   Women can be a little wary of men only teams.  The fact a woman is present would make a housewife feel more secure about the business.   Of course, this is only my opinion but I know what I would think if I saw a woman window cleaner.

[thewindowcleaner1]

Of course, this is only my opinion but I know what I would think if I saw a woman window cleaner

 

[busydaffodil]

Of course, this is only my opinion but I know what I would think if I saw a woman window cleaner

 

Hmmmm.....I AM A WOMAN by the way!   

[thewindowcleaner1]

I know....

[busydaffodil]

then why the wink?   Hmmm........??   
CONFUSED here!

[Sarah Sarill]

Hi everyone,

Matt - kitchen sink
Tosh - Good at the Chat
The window Cleaner - keep the jobs to normal domestics
                                Does'nt know how to turn the heating on
Brett - do the housework when they get home

etc etc etc etc

Just what I expected from you guys - all that testosterone ................

Seriously though, how do you overcome the problem of carrying the weight of the water if a van mounted system is not viable for the types of properties you have ?

Hubby doing upstairs with Omnitrolley already which is heavy to pull when full so need something small, compact and lightweight.

Was thinking of a backpack in one of those old ladies trolleys whch will hold the pole too but they dont carry the weight so.............................

over to you guys for ideas.

Sarah

[AuRavelling79]

Sarah, I've got the Broxburn trolley which takes two 25L barrels. When full I find it heavy to pull along. Up a slight incline or across gravel and it's tough work. I often just put only one barrel in. So a tank in vehicle with a hose reel seems more suited to the lighter framed window cleaner IMO.

Or some type of trolley with two 12 litre drums and m/cycle battery instead of 85 amp/hr one. Matt's prolly the best chap to talk to. But that = more trips back and forth to the vehicle to refill..

I ain't Hercules but I am 13 stones and 6ft tall so meatier (or is that flabbier?) than most women.

(By the way, guy I work with on some bigger commercials - no family - has a Pug 405 estate and he has a 400litre tank, r/o and reel in it - he puts the seats down and runs the hose reel out of the back window and although it's a complete pain, at the end of the week he drains the tank removes it and has the car back to normal - but it is 20 minutes work which is a drag when you come home knackered on a Friday! - and putting it back and filling on a Sunday)

[dai]

Sarah, I am in the same position as Tosh. My mrs is only 4ft 9". a 25 ltr container would be more than half her body weight, having said that she can and does lift them ot of the van. Up ladders, no way! she has a small pointy ladder that I made out of a pair of old steps. Her lack of height means she has great difficulty doing big windows. If she can't reach the middle of the window from the side, she can't do it all.
My clients love her though, she does an excellent job, far too fastigious for my liking. I have told her many times that we only get paid for cleaning the window in a door, no need to do the frames, bottom panels, and the letter box.
She is a joy to have around, she even gets the really miserable ones to smile.
If She has a day off to catch up with houswork all my clients say "on your own today, wheres Mayah"
Drawbacks? Well theres always the loo problem. We guys have an anatomical
advantage as far as that's concerned. Male window cleaners become very adept
at finding places to pee. Taking time off to go and look for the nearest public loo can be a pain.
There may be some big strapping girls out there that could do the job as well as a guy but I aint seen any yet. A WFP setup built into a pram, and a light pole might be the answer, but at the moment she adds less than 25% to the days takings.
Conclusion. I would rather have her with me every time, she keeps me laughing all day. That's worth another 25%. DAi

[matt]

i would just use a sack truck and 1 25 L barrel in it

its only 25 Kg and the battery etc, so we shall say 35 KG, its not a great weight, if you think its too heavy, either get some smaller drums (20 L's P.haps) or only fill them to a certain level

the sack truck is designed to take the weight at the bottom of the truck, thus the wheel do all the hard work

as you have all your Gubbins (RO etc) you would just need a Sack truck and a pump, jobs a good un

now get back to the kitchen 

[gaza]

TOSH:YOUR MRS RUNS 17 MILES IN ONE MORNING IF i TOLD MY MRS TO RUN 5 MILES A DAY SHE WOULD BE 35 MILES AWAY BY THE WEEKEND
YOU GET WOMERN BUS DRIVERS[THANKS TO POWER STEERING] AND  LORRY DRIVERS.BUT W/C IF THERE ABLE TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS THEN WHY NOT?

 GAZA

[Moderator David@stives]

Remember window cleaning is a tough hard dirty job whether you use wfp ladders or just bungalows.
I think you have to be a certain type to handle it what with the dirt behind the nails getting spashed with dirty water ,having to wear work clothes .also you are on your feet all day and are lifting weight all the time ,even a bucket of water can weigh anything between 10 & 20 kilos and the same with an a-frame.

If you think you can handle it ,go for it but dont expect to keep your well manicured nails.

Dave

[Sarah Sarill]

Dave,

I take it you did not poll 'Its not hard work at all 'then ? 

Cos I dont have well manicured nails due to mopping the floor ,washing up all day and putting them down the toilets to clean them - does that mean I could not w/c then.

Nurses lift both sexes body weights every day, house cleaners get dirt behind their fingers every day and women in many industries like factory workers, traffic wardens, hairdressers etc etc etc stand on their feet all day.

What about women who carry children for long periods of time.  They weigh on the back and the bones too.

I assume David that you wont be employing women then (unless he-she will plenty of muscle).

Take on board what you are saying about being a 'certain type' who can put up with all of the aformentioned.  I could not see Jordan or Rebecca Loos w/c can you ?

Personally I think its all about attitude, apptitude and having the right tools for women w/c hence my questions about lighter equipment.  Just have to wat and see if I could manage all day though as at the moment I only help with several big commercials hotel jobs.

Any advice on lightweight sack trolleys etc Dave ?

Sarah

[Terry_Burrows]

 ;)Hi just to let you know we have a lady world record holder,check the Guinness Book out,I was with her this year and will be doing a photo shoot,soon with her and the book : so all you lady wc bring it on

[gaza]

Iwould never argue with a women whos initials are ss

 gaza gone into hiding

[busydaffodil]

Remember window cleaning is a tough hard dirty job whether you use wfp ladders or just bungalows.
I think you have to be a certain type to handle it what with the dirt behind the nails getting spashed with dirty water ,having to wear work clothes .also you are on your feet all day and are lifting weight all the time ,even a bucket of water can weigh anything between 10 & 20 kilos and the same with an a-frame.

If you think you can handle it ,go for it but dont expect to keep your well manicured nails.

Dave

EWWWWWEEEE....DAVE!  

I agree with the "you have to be a certain type of person to handle it" line.   But surely this applies to ALL people, not just  females.

As for " dirt behind the nails getting spashed with dirty water ,having to wear work clothes .also you are on your feet all day and are lifting weight all the time ,even a bucket of water can weigh anything between 10 & 20 kilos and the same with an a-frame.",  well,  what an assumption to make.  
Do you assume women are creatures, fit only to serve, look good & act weak?   Of course, many older men still believe this rubbish.  Thankfully this type of opinion is becoming rare.  

I for one can out work many men.  I run 2 businesses.  One being an industrial cleaning business.  This involved manually cleaning 4/5 storey blocks of flats with no machinery. No access to power, handballing all equipment & full water jacks up 4 flights several times per block.  We clean 5 blocks a week.  This is my part time business.  My other business, involves working 8/9 hours in an EXTREMELY hot environment(Which is extremely tiring), stood the whole time, Heavy lifting of water jacks, etc.  As for dirty nails!   LOL  Try being covered in grease for 8/9 hours a day, having to go home and shower 2 times to remove it.  I do this job 6 days a week.   Dirty nails, t shirts and clothing really fade into insignificance in comparison.
In addition, I still have a home to run, clothes to wash, dry & iron, shopping to do, food to cook, cleaning, polishing & dusting, finances to organise, etc etc etc

So please Dave, do not be so fickle as to assume all women  care only about their nails and clothes.   Some of us do more than our fair share.

I await the back lash & possible warning for stating my opinion in a forceful way.

[Sir Squeaky]

That sounds fair enough Lizzie.

Don't mess with South Wales' women Dave!
They're equal to, or above us up here.

In addition, I still have a home to run, clothes to wash, dry & iron, shopping to do, food to cook, cleaning, polishing & dusting, finances to organise, etc etc etc

Impressed!
You are already married aren't you?

Rog.

[Sir Squeaky]

Do you two know each other?

I guess you're in the same area. Newport(ish) I assume.

[Sarah Sarill]

and you know the saying about women in groups

'us sisters have got to stick together' particularly on a male dominated forum eh !!!

We need more so get your wives/partners/ cleaners involved.

Sarah

[Sir Squeaky]

Oh don't encourage my girlfriend.

She tells me what to write half the time as it is.

Anyway, fun as this is, we're going to get this locked in a minute, as we're "chatting"

[Sir Squeaky]

She works part-time in Threshers actually, (handy staff discounts).
I try not to let her near my pole...

Actually I'm still a squeegee man myself, and enjoy doing so.
No plans to change, as she doesn't want a water tank in the garden for a start. :

Roger.

[Sarah Sarill]

Whatever suits Roger - I'm not a wfp basher !!!

Thanks all,

Off work today as the little un is sick so forget any ideas about employing women w/c !!!!! Ironic aint it ?

Matt, Where did you purchase your sack trolley? Did you modify it to take the tank or did you purchase itlike that ?

Regards,

Sarah

Did you add the extra suport for the tank Matt ?

Sarah

[matt]

Whatever suits Roger - I'm not a wfp basher !!!

Thanks all,

Off work today as the little un is sick so forget any ideas about employing women w/c !!!!! Ironic aint it ?

Matt, Where did you purchase your sack trolley? Did you modify it to take the tank or did you purchase itlike that ?

Regards,

Sarah

Did you add the extra suport for the tank Matt ?

Sarah

sorry Ive not replied today, been working



the sack truck cost me about 20 quid, loads of places do them

the welding of the rear and front straps (to hold the barrel in) cost 30 quid

too be honest, the rear straps are a waste of time, i dont know what i was thinking at the time, they really have NO USE at all  : :, thus i could have saved myself 10 quid of the price

so sack truck converted to that about 40 quid all in

Ive seen plenty use bungy straps to hold the barrel in, but i thought this was would be easier

[Sarah Sarill]

Thanks Matt,

Did you go to a welding company to get that done and did you ever price up an enclosed case to hold the pump and battery?

Sarah

[Moderator David@stives]

Busydaffodil  & Sarah

If people only want the replies they want to hear ,what is the point of asking the question.

As being fikkel ,no --i just know women.

My wife works with me and does a dam-n  good job


 and works full time .she is 5`8" and about 9 1/2 stone and is stronger than the average woman and it is a struggle for her at times.


About the nail bit ,most of the women we know would not do this work not just  the physical part ,it is thinks like being seen in dirty  work clothes ,having wind blasted greasy hair .dirty nails and the image of being a window cleaner  .as you can see all women are not the same.that is what i was trying to put across in my first post.   :

Many a time my wife as picked up the kids from school with muddy trousers and a wet patch down her right leg and feels embarrased about that .and a lot of women would rather die than to be seen like that.  

Remember why women have smaller feet ?

Anyway who let the women loose on here ?

[Moderator David@stives]

sarah

i welcome women on here

Women have smaller feet so they can get closer to the sink 

My wife only does ground floor windows traditionaly so i cant comment on wfp ,but i am sure she could do it.

I get a few aches and pains with wfp so i can only assume it would be worse her.

The ideal situation for women in my opinion is to do mostly bungalows or be part of a 2 man team.
Lets face it them 25l barrels are not light ,and maneovering a pole above a conservatory is not easy even for a man.

I will put mrs David on later so she can give her opinion,

oh better not i know what you women are like when you get chatting (is that stereotyping as well) i would never get my pc back

what have you done with will .is he tied and gagged in the corner of the room

Dave

[matt]

Thanks Matt,

Did you go to a welding company to get that done and did you ever price up an enclosed case to hold the pump and battery?

Sarah

yes a professional fabricating place, though its so simple any1 with a welder could do the job

i use a "jump-start" Battery, so didnt look into a case for the pump and battery, i just put the pump in a small ABS box (about 10 quid) it does a good job

[pjulk]

I think it would be good to have more woman window cleaners but better in pairs as there is some weirdo's about.

I used to take my wife with me and the customers love it.
She can do everything a regular window cleaner can.
My daughter leaves school next year and if she wanted to become a window cleaner i wouldn't hesitate in helping her get started.
But i don't think she is going to go into window cleaning but i wouldn't want her working for £7 per hour in an office/ shop or whatever when she could easily earn a lot more cleaning windows.

Paul

[AuRavelling79]

I think it would be good to have more woman window cleaners but better in pairs as there is some weirdo's about.

Paul

True - especially on this forum!

[Newwfpgatherer]

From Sarah Sarill
 

My original post asked what equipment is suitable for a women.

Not wishing to be nit-picking, but the Topic is entitled:

 "Women as w/c - your perception guys?"

you then proceeded to ask:

"Can women do everything men can as w/c?"


Objection overruled

Pj

Remember chaps:
"When a woman has the last word, it's the end of the argument.
When a man has the last word, it's the start of a new one!"


And just for the record:  There is no way I would let my wife go up a ladder, even though she would, gladly.

[dai]

Sarah, Thinking about the matter further. It is about mental attitude as much as anything. Big ladders demand a lot of brute strengh and most ladies would not be able to manage them. When my eldest daughter was in college she used to work with me.
She was doing bottoms only but she out performed a few young guys I'v had working for me. She could work hard for 8 hrs and I mean hard. My take was up a good 50%. My daughter is 5ft 8" and well built
When you take someone on of either gender your take never seems to double. The best Lad I had only inreased the take by 65% if we were working together. The only way of improving on this was for him to do one side of the street and me the other.
My late wife also had the work ethos, 5ft 2" of bottle and grit. My present wife is tiny and does struggle doing W/C, Put a mattock in her hand instead of a wagtail and she really gets stuck in, dug up half the front lawn when I was working alone one day to plant chillies. A tall w/c has a big advantage because of his extra reach doing hand work, but WFP is a different ball game. I believe that any women with the right attitude and light weight pole could do the job as well as many a guy. I know my daughter could. Dai

[Moderator David@stives]

they come here causing trouble and where are they now ?

watching corrie and emmaenders .(no stereotyping again)

or are they upstairs knackered from a hard days work ?

or  they are cleaning the muck out of there nails

 :

[Newwfpgatherer]

they come here causing trouble and where are they now ?

watching corrie and emmaenders .(no stereotyping again)

or are they upstairs knackered from a hard days work ?

or  they are cleaning the muck out of there nails

 :

Or washing my scrims and ironing my clothes for tomorrow, while I'm still slaving away here!!

Pj

[squeaky-clean 1]

hi lads and lasses

as the female partner to our buisness i try to do my bit, i work when needed sometimes only two or three days per week, sometimes five depends wots on i use 12 ft and 24ft pole i do clean domestic houses and yes the old dears do love me and   it can take me a bit longer as they all want to make me tea.
i also did a commercial job with hubby on friday.
I dont see a problem with ladies useing wfp but i do have trouble with trad way as i cant lift ladders safely on and off the van.

Belinda (the wife)

[Moderator David@stives]

Were being invaded  aarrrggghhhh

[windows_chepstow]

Were being invaded  aarrrggghhhh

I doubt the Federation or PWCA could improve the image of window cleaners to the general public as much as women entering this traditionally male dominated occupation.

I'm all for it.  Technology has moved on.  Traditionally; prior to power steering; truck drivers used to be hefty blokes - they had to be to steer a massive wagon - it took some muscle.

Now women routinely drive trucks; probably better too.

I'm all for females entering traditionally male occupations.  As long as they can do the job; who gives a fat WRAC's pump!

I would honestly say, being a council-estate Geordie living in a fairly affluent area in South East Wales, my customers feel safer and happier with me having a female working partner with me.

She works hard, does a good job and makes my clients feel comfortable.

[Sarah Sarill]

Welcome Belinda,

Nice to hear a womens perspective.  I agree traditional is near impossible for most women but wfp is the way for me to move forward (maybe even giving up my p/t job) and working for the hubby. 

(Wills great David and sends his regards but can speak cos I've got him tied to the ball & chain in the corner blubbering on about some guttering job tomorrow !!!).

Belinda, If you do downstairs is the 2ft pole too big ?  I was thinking of getting a 6ft one that will give me about a 10ft ish rech - ample for bottoms ?


Tosh & Dai spot-on postings and thanks Matt - I will be getting one done in the next few weeks.

My posting has been answered so have we exhausted this one then or are you ready for more 

Thanks all,  Sarah

[matt]

thanks Matt - I will be getting one done in the next few weeks.

your welcome

[Moderator David@stives]

My posting has been answered so have we exhausted this one then or are you ready for more

 

bring it on   

[Newwfpgatherer]

"In THESE SHOES?"

[squeaky-clean 1]

hi sarah

sorry been busy with eastenders . lol
 not realy collected new van today hubby still water proofing the floor.

the 24ft pole is a bit big for ground floor windows but needed for our three story houses i also have an unger pole which we have adapted to do most house with as its much lighter and reaches most upstairs windows, this way im not nakered by the fith or sixth house, i also tend to work with my son and  he does backs on most houses that way he reaches over conservatories me just being a woman and all that i can do it but if a mans about why should i. lol
 

[busydaffodil]

Busydaffodil  & Sarah

If people only want the replies they want to hear ,what is the point of asking the question.

As being fikkel ,no --i just know women.

My wife works with me and does a dam-n  good job


 and works full time .she is 5`8" and about 9 1/2 stone and is stronger than the average woman and it is a struggle for her at times.


About the nail bit ,most of the women we know would not do this work not just  the physical part ,it is thinks like being seen in dirty  work clothes ,having wind blasted greasy hair .dirty nails and the image of being a window cleaner  .as you can see all women are not the same.that is what i was trying to put across in my first post.   :

Many a time my wife as picked up the kids from school with muddy trousers and a wet patch down her right leg and feels embarrased about that .and a lot of women would rather die than to be seen like that.  

Remember why women have smaller feet ?

Anyway who let the women loose on here ?

1.   Giving ones opinion to a question is surely why we are all here(and to help others & learn things ourselves), but when an answer offends, I have every right to voice my opinions too.  Thats what a forum is for.  Rest assured, I WILL voice my opinion when I feel pigeon holed & insulted.

2.   Fickel....probably the wrong word.  I know a replacement!    As for knowing women....well,  you obviously know your wife.  But women definitely are not the same.  We each have our own opinion, strengths and weaknesses.  But to assume our only differences are based on how we all look in public, is very condescending.

3.   Most women, if necessary, would go out working in a stinking job.  If you have kids, mortgage, bills, etc, one might not have the luxury of choice.  Surely both sexes care about their appearance?   More and more men are using lotions & non invasive surgery to make their appearance better.   Gone are the days when men didnt care about how they looked: well most men anyway.  There are still some of the old school around!

Off to paint bedroom now.  I have people viewing our house tomorrow after work.

Liz

[Moderator David@stives]

Why do i bother     

[AuRavelling79]

1.   Giving ones opinion to a question is surely why we are all here(and to help others & learn things ourselves), but when an answer offends, I have every right to voice my opinions too.  Thats what a forum is for.  Rest assured, I WILL voice my opinion when I feel pigeon holed & insulted.

.....

Liz

While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments bizzie-lizzie, the original thread from Sarah asked we *Guys* for our perceptions!

[busydaffodil]

While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments bizzie-lizzie, the original thread from Sarah asked we *Guys* for our perceptions!

Thanks for agreeing with my sentiments 

I didnt actually answer Sarahs Question directly (At least I dont think I did. ...its been a long night)!!!.  I entered this discussion after someones' statement raised my hackles.     Am I wrong to assume I can reply to postings even if they are directed to "Guys"??

Am off to bed now.......6am start tomorrow.  SO this "Gal" is saying night night.

Liz

[Newwfpgatherer]

65 posts already just on this!!

It must be a woman's thread

Duck

Pj

[Sir Squeaky]

Duck

Where?