[Fox]

This is the senario - you have a cleaner off on holiday and the replacement sets the building alarms off twice in a row.  The client complains that it costs £80 each time for the alarm company to come and reset it and says they want to invoice you for the costs.

So would you or wouldn't you pay and what reasons would you state for your decision?

Fox

 

[Phoenix]

Was the replacement cleaner trained in the use of the alarm system by your client, or is it your resposibility to inform the cleaner how the alarm system works.

If its the clients responsibility to train or show the replacement cleaner how the alarm system works, then you could say they are responsible for the call out charge.  If its your responsibility, then you pay. 

This all depends on how much the contract is worth.  It the job worth keeping?  Are they good payers?  Can you afford to lose the work if you refuse to pay for the call outs.

Just a couple of points to think about.

regards

Graham

[*Chris Browne]

Had this a couple of times over the years and im afraid we have had to pay out, if we take the responsablity of locking up then we must ensure it is done correctly if its not done properly its our fault

chris

[D woods]

Hi Fox
When we used to be involved in office cleaning , this used to happen to
us once a month. The problem was most of the cleaners spoke very poor
English and did not understand the instructions.

Sometimes the client would pay the alarm company, but usually we had to
pay.And every single time we refused to pay, we lost the job.

[Fox]

Hmmm - interesting - in all the years I have been in this business I have never before been asked this question and believe me cleaners have set off dozens of alarms!

I am very divided on this and feel that some liability lays with the client as they are the ones who want cleaning out of office hours so they must allow for human error.  On the other hand I also believe that the cleaner was not instructed properly by the person given responsibility to show him (even though he had three days to learn it!) so the Company has to hold some responsibility for that.

Difficult one this but a decision has to be made, just don't know what it should be yet!

Fox

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Depends if you want to keep the contract or not!?
I would pay it to keep good relations but make sure next time your comfortable that the cleaner has been properly trained etc Learn from the mistake and move on is my opinion.

regards rob.

[Fox]

Depends if you want to keep the contract or not!?

The contract will not be lost through not paying and I didn't ask what would happen if the decision was not to pay, just what reasons would be behind a decision.  (and I thank you for yours)  The question was to find out what others would do if they were in this situation.  I already know the pros and cons of paying or not paying in this particular case.

I feel this is an interesting topic and may help to get people thinking when becoming a keyholder.

Fox
 

[AJCleaningServices]

..I am very divided on this and feel that some liability lays with the client as they are the ones who want cleaning out of office hours...

I would disagree with this point.  Offices usually done before or after their working hours and houses done during the day.

...so they must allow for human error...

From your words they have let you get away with it for the first time, but two times in a row... would you not take some actions?

...I also believe that the cleaner was not instructed properly by the person given responsibility to show him (even though he had three days to learn it!) so the Company has to hold some responsibility for that.

Difficult one this but a decision has to be made, just don't know what it should be yet!...

We would to pay for the call out...

Just my thoughts,

Regards,

Arthur

[BSF]

Hi Fox and all,

It is a good subject, I personally wouldn’t pay it, I would point out what is in my t&c’s which were signed before the job started:

No liability will be held against the company for any loss or damage howsoever caused by the company’s employees, you the customer, its servants or agents omission to secure any windows, doors, fire exits or to commission security systems.

Regards

Paul

[BSF]

Any how  I believe this could be a bit of a trick question Fox, because it has happened to us more than a few times, I’d actually tell the person to get a new alarm system or provider, because, they (customer) would have an override code to reset/change the alarm system/code, if not they could call the alarm provider to get the code to reset.

No charge would be made…

Regards

Paul

[AJCleaningServices]

...I’d actually tell the person to get a new alarm system or provider, because, they (customer) would have an override code to reset/change the alarm system/code, if not they could call the alarm provider to get the code to reset…

Paul,

That's a good advice...

What if they (customers) advise you to get a new cleaner who can understand your instructions...

Regards,

Arthur

[BSF]

Sorry Arthur, if someone wants to employ a cleaner who cant enter an alarm code, thats up to them

My point is I wouldnt pay any money the question posted by Fox asked what would you do.

Mistakes do happen, as Ive wrote above, if an alarm go's off it's reset, either by entering the correct code or the reset code, no charge, if their was it's in our terms that we wont be liable.

Regards

Paul

[BSF]

Had this a couple of times over the years and im afraid we have had to pay out, if we take the responsablity of locking up then we must ensure it is done correctly if its not done properly its our fault

chris

No Chris it's not your fault, I wouldnt sleep at night if I thought I was going to be liable for my staff not setting alarms and locking doors, I suggest you and others have a really big think about your t & c's, what you need to add is posted above.

Regards

Paul

[AJCleaningServices]

Paul,

I run a small domestic cleaning company and for me very difficult to judg how to deal with BIG customers, but as far as my personal experience is conerned I should say that do treat others in the same way as you would like to be treated, so if it was my foult I would admit it  

But as I said your advice regarding changing "alarm" company was really good.

Regards,

Arthur

[BSF]

Ey up Arthur,

If you were a key holder to a domestic customer, one of your staff forgot to lock the door and/or set the alarm, then a nasty burglar robbed the house

do you mean to tell me that you'd admit being liable for any loss, if so, you shouldnt be in business.

People do forget to do things and make mistakes entering alarm code's, its normal, but i'm wise enough to protect myself from being sued from every angle.

You sound like a very honest man Arthur thats a good quality, but you must understand business is business.

Perhaps Fox and Chris will now sleep on my replys and let us all know what they think 2moz

Regards

Paul

[blacksheep]

hi fox, if it happened i would feel i should pay, now this may through a spanner in the works , my hubby was reading  /looking in to security and keyholders last week and we were discussing the point ,that a new law out now saying anyone who is a keyholder now is responable for sceruity so therefore needs to hold a badge for secutiry, there is a site for it but i cant seem to find it for you. even though i took out keyholders insurance i will have to ring them up to see am i covered because of this new law out, may not have anything to do with us lot but just a thought

[AJCleaningServices]

Paul,

Your T & C can protect you in an nasty event and that is very good, but sometimes it would be better to pay in order to retain a good relationship with your customer.  The Fox's case is one of where I would pay.  Just my view on this particular case.

Regards,

Arthur

------------------------------

Added later:

Paul, what about PL insurance should you not refer to it in case of "disaster" instead of relaying on your T & C?  My guess is that in same cases of loss caused by your membe of staff you could be taken to court and your T & C would not protect you.

Regards,

Arthur

[Prestige1]

I can't believe you asked the question. It’s your responsibility so you should pay simple as. surely if you are building a business that’s not only professional but reputable you can't get out of not paying, on the other hand if you take the stance of not paying not your problem, this to me just spells out cowboys to me, but then its just my opinion.

[Fox]

can't believe you asked the question. It’s your responsibility so you should pay simple as. surely if you are building a business that’s not only professional but reputable you can't get out of not paying, on the other hand if you take the stance of not paying not your problem, this to me just spells out cowboys to me, but then its just my opinion.

Hey tonto - pass me my lasso I have some cleaning to do!  lol - you obviously have no idea on how a large company runs with several key holders and alarms to deal with!  I think you would be bankrupt in a few weeks!  To admit liability would be very silly from a business point of view, what if there was a fault with the alarm that set it off through no ones fault but it was the cleaners fob that was at fault?  Would you pay each time?  (I have had this problem previously and the cleaner was blamed for 3 months as sometimes the fob worked other times it didn't, in the end it was found to be a fault in the system, I wouldn't have a business if I had paid then!).

B.S.F I have a clause in my contract covering me for employees stating that the contractor will not be liable for any loss or damage suffered by the customer and its servants etc etc by reason of dishonesty, destruction or any other action etc etc and could use this clause although it doesn't state alarms directly.

I know what action I am going to take and will let you all know shortly, I am finding your opinions very interesting although surprising!

Fox

[Prestige1]

This is the senario - you have a cleaner off on holiday and the replacement sets the building alarms off twice in a row.  The client complains that it costs £80 each time for the alarm company to come and reset it and says they want to invoice you for the costs.

So would you or wouldn't you pay and what reasons would you state for your decision?

Fox
Oh we've changed the story now have we, gone from the replacement set the alarm off to a faulty fob!!!! Get your story right and we all will have a chance at given you an accurate reply. My word I have seen companies like yours 10 a penny, it not me! I didn’t do it, honest!  I have seen your posts before, why do you bother to seek other peoples opinions and then slag them off when they pass there’s. And why do you presume I have no large contracts? Dear me we do have an attitude. Because I am honest and do the right thing I probably get paid a hell of a lot more then you do for my large contracts. Don’t bother to do a sarcastic reply because I promise I won't be bothered to read it a bit like your posts in the future. Regards Phil
 

[Fox]

Phil

The two instances that I posted were completely different cleaners, different buildings and different times!  Why do you think I'd changed my story?  Did you not read my posts right?  They are both different examples of an alarm situation.  (not that you are reading this so it doesn't matter!).

I asked for opinions on what would you do not your opinion on what sort of company I run. 

BSF

I did speak to the client regarding reset codes and she said she was going to try to get software to make this possible but at present the alarm company unfortunately has to deal with it. 

Fox

[DP]

The replies are interesting in respect of how people view things. I am not surprised that people say that you should pay, as it seems to be the right thing to do on the face of it. So pay up Fox you meeenie  lol

Seriously though:
There does seem to be other things to consider and not least is: can any contract sustain an open cheque book on this type of thing? Of course not and therefore there has to be limitations.

Risks and liabilities effect the value of any contract, and it simply isn’t good enough to say “oh ill pay for this or that if it goes wrong” irrespective of any moral issues.

Clients cannot exonerate themselves from responsibility, just because they buy in a service unless that service is specifically about a particular risk, which by the way is supported in law.

Cleaning contracts rarely include a full building security package due to the exceptional costs it would involve and you could argue that it is immoral for a client to expect this responsibility from a cleaning company free of charge.

No point saying that paying is the only thing to do as that just demonstrates a lack of thought (something which is rampant on here). For those who disagree, would you pay an alarm reset fee of say £500, if not then why not, does this suddenly become immoral based on cost or could it be that you couldn’t afford it. When does it become  not ok ( I love hypocrisy, there is so much to work with). 

Phill:
I’m also not surprised at the response you got, "Cowboys". Could you not answer any of my posts as well thanks lol.




 

[D woods]

Hi Everyone
If this was to happen to me now, I would decide how much I wanted the customer . Because if they ask you to pay and you dont (because its in your
terms and conditions) at best you will sour your relationship with the client,
or worst case lose the contract.

[Art]

hi fox, if it happened i would feel i should pay, now this may through a spanner in the works , my hubby was reading  /looking in to security and keyholders last week and we were discussing the point ,that a new law out now saying anyone who is a keyholder now is responable for sceruity so therefore needs to hold a badge for secutiry, there is a site for it but i cant seem to find it for you. even though i took out keyholders insurance i will have to ring them up to see am i covered because of this new law out, may not have anything to do with us lot but just a thought

Think your getting confused, keyholders that have to hold a badge for security, are people in the security industry.
It's all part of the license issue that's going on in the security industry, not cleaning.

Arthur

[Fox]

I have decided to meet with the client half way and offer to pay some of the bill without accepting liability.  I will write a letter to the effect that the payment represents a goodwill gesture and does not admit liability.

I intend to add another clause in our contract regarding alarm systems.

I fully believe that if I paid up and accepted full reponsibility the client can have a field day with charges, the line has to be drawn.

People on here seem to be of the opinion that if we do not pay then we risk losing the contract, it's a very valid point, however how many of you want to feel like you are being held to ransom - 'do this or else'!  We provide a high quality cleaning service for a cost, if we were going to take on full liability for extras then we would charge retrospectively, however as a 'cleaning company' and as discussed many times before, clients will not pay for these services. 

I am speaking with the client on Monday and shall let you know their take on the situation, thanks for all your replies guys they have been very helpful.

Fox
 

[BSF]

Hi Fox and all,

Fox if it was me having the meeting in the same situation as you,

I would make two main points to the customer:

1.   Question the alarm company for feeling they should charge, for something that is very simple to do.
2.   Would the customer deduct the cost from a member of their own staff for a simple mistake.

Everybody is human; mistakes are made from time to time.

If it was really my contract, their would be a third point: You signed our terms and conditions that included failure for our employees to commission security systems.

Arthur,

Paul,

Your T & C can protect you in an nasty event and that is very good, but sometimes it would be better to pay in order to retain a good relationship with your customer.  The Fox's case is one of where I would pay.  Just my view on this particular case.

Regards,

Arthur

------------------------------

Added later:

Paul, what about PL insurance should you not refer to it in case of "disaster" instead of relaying on your T & C?  My guess is that in same cases of loss caused by your membe of staff you could be taken to court and your T & C would not protect you.

Regards,

Arthur

I’d hardly call this a disaster, t & c’s sometimes aren’t worth the paper their written on, but I could safely say that if the customer wanted to take me to court for this particular matter, I would win.

My public liability insurance is in place for a reason, not for this matter, I would not be held to ransom and wouldn’t pay the costs, I also would have a legally binding contract with the customer so they would have to honour payment for the rest of the contract if they decided to terminate it on the due date, good luck to them.

Regards

Paul

[Fox]

Paul

Interesting points, I did initially ask the client if an employee who was a keyholder would get it docked from their wages but decided that as a contractor it wasn't really appropriate for me to use that argument.

You bring up a good point about the alarm company, I did say that theirs was the only system I had come across that had to call out an alarm company to do a simple reset for an 'aborted lock up' (their words), that's when she mentioned getting new software.  I also feel that £80 per call out is over the top.  Most alarm companies charge between £35 and £50.  DP made a good point - how much is too much?

Fox

[D woods]

HI BSF
I agree with you that if you have a leaglly binding contract the client will have
to pay the alarm company , and not you. But do you think from a business point of view it is worth losing a valuable contract over.

[BSF]

HI BSF
I agree with you that if you have a leaglly binding contract the client will have
to pay the alarm company , and not you. But do you think from a business point of view it is worth losing a valuable contract over.

If it was my company in this situation of course I would consider the implications of refusing to foot the bill, I would have to ask myself how much I need the contract, is it important, but paying for something like this could then open the floodgates for this customer to try and charge me for every little thing they decided to blame my employee/s for, believe me they would, as I said I do find it very hard to believe that they could be charged by the alarm company anyway for a very simple procedure, if it was my alarm I’d get a new one that would enable me to reset it myself, or from a phone call to my provider.

My main point of posting on the topic started by Fox was: change your terms and conditions to suit your business, question the charge!

Regards

Paul   

[Fox]

Hi all

Spoke with my client yesterday and she is quite happy to accept half of the payment for the alarm call outs. 

Thanks for all your replies to this subject.

Fox

[Tim Downer]

.....and that's how a well run cleaning company is......well, run.....when you can talk to the client and get it sorted with no arguements and complications.

I found this post a very interesting read, and have made a few notes for my reference, and was a bit confused on many of the comments from some of our posters.

Many have argued about "whether to pay.....or not to pay" .....  "should you consider getting rid of the contract or not...." all for a £50 - £80 charge??
A feeling of ..... "well, i'm not going to pay it!!!!....so there.....its all the clients fault" etc etc

Well, none of you mentioned about just talking to the client......because as Fox seems to have, you should already have a good relationship with the client and when problems like this occur, you should be able to approach the client and talk about it (over a cup of coffee!!)

But having said that, i have found a few posts to be of interest and have made some notes to change any future T & C's

Obviously, the above was my own ramblings and thoughts on the matter        and wish every one all the best in doing things their way 

(This is after all my first day cutting down on the coffee intake  and have not had one yet.....have been drinking green tea all day  and am treating myself to a coffee at lunchtime )

Kind Regards

Tim