North/South divide on prices

« **on:** January 11, 2009, 09:44:53 pm »

Over the last couple of weeks ive seen price differences on here and spoken to windows cleaners up North who say they cant believe the prices we charge down south. I always say living expences are higher down south ie (house prices etc). Thought id see what you guys would charge on this random picture of a three bed semi on here for just the fronts using either wfp or Trad. Dont forget to say where your based

« **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:45:48 pm »

i would charge £6.50 North london Hertfordshire borders

« **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:48:26 pm »

So would i if it was a dolls house,you`ve gotta do better than that buddy lol.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:49:38 pm »

£15 - Because that's my minimum price.

For the whole house it would probably be £20.

Andy

« **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:49:42 pm »

Quote from: NWH on January 11, 2009, 09:48:26 pm

So would i if it was a dolls house,you`ve gotta do better than that buddy lol.

Not sure what you trying to say

« **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:50:35 pm »

That's only a 5 minute job. I have a min charge of £10.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:54:49 pm »

Quote

That's only a 5 minute job. I have a min charge of £10.

Thats not a 5 minute job!

By the time you've setup, cleaned the windows, packed away and collected it's proabably more like 20 minutes (if your doing it properly).

Andy

« **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2009, 09:59:56 pm »

Quote from: Andy @ Southern Cleaning Services on January 11, 2009, 09:54:49 pm

Quote
That's only a 5 minute job. I have a min charge of £10.

Thats not a 5 minute job!

By the time you've setup, cleaned the windows, packed away and collected it's proabably more like 20 minutes (if your doing it properly).

Andy

You have to get there and then get to the next job so that`s another 20 mins,this is what i find with a lot of the price threads numptyody takes costs into account at all.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:00:24 pm »

I would want to charge around £5.50 but my business partner ( who likes to charge more than me) may want to go to about £6 to £6.50. I work in the Birmingham area.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:06:23 pm »

Am i looking at the wrong pic? I counted 4 windows.
Time to get there, unknown.
Time to pull out hose and turn switch on. a minute.
I might take 20 minutes if it was a 1st clean. But i would prefer to have a higher flowrate and take 5.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:10:12 pm »

£4 - £5 for the front wfp in sheffield. Under 10 mins with my backpack.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:11:05 pm »

If it was close to other work, I'd do it for €10 or €12. WFP in Ireland,..

« **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:12:16 pm »

Quote from: birdymiller on January 11, 2009, 10:10:12 pm

£4 - £5 for the front wfp in sheffield. Under 10 mins with my backpack.

You are working in old money arn`t you lol.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:13:25 pm »

£5 up in the valleys .

« **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:20:11 pm »

You lot must be joking i`m in the middle of LMAO,i told my Mrs some of these prices and she said she would have you do them every week and she would also treat the family every week,they say small things please small minds.I know where this 3 x the monthly earnings and all that bull come from now,i don`t have a shop i charge that little for.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:21:52 pm »

OK - we're talking 2 big bays, bedroom window, a porch, garage door glass too.

I would charge about a tenner - wfp - and take about 15 minutes to do a thorough job.

Edited to add - I live in Bristol and an unimproved 3 bed ex council semi is about 130k/170k depending upon whether you live on a sink estate or a "better" one. Two years ago that would have been 160K/200K!

« **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:23:30 pm »

Malc where are you from,do you know how much it costs to live in the south of england.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:25:01 pm »

£9 bournemouth

« **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:26:42 pm »

£10 min charge

Exeter - Devon

« **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:27:56 pm »

Out of interest how much would that house cost to buy in your area.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:29:26 pm »

NWH, you really are an arse!! Yuo've slaged everyone elses price off but you don't heve the balls to post your own price.

btw, my price would be £6 trad Nottinghamshire

« **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:34:56 pm »

It`s my choice not to say if i don`t want to it would only cause this thread to go on for about a week or so,i wouldn`t say it`s a case of North South divide i think the distance is a lot further than that in my reading.When you price do you think about the running costs of the van-wet days-holidays-sick days etc,if my opinion and business sense makes me an Arse then i have the biggest butt of you all.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:36:16 pm »

Quote from: Stan The Man on January 11, 2009, 10:31:11 pm

Quote from: NWH on January 11, 2009, 10:20:11 pm
You lot must be joking i`m in the middle of LMAO,i told my Mrs some of these prices and she said she would have you do them every week and she would also treat the family every week,they say small things please small minds.I know where this 3 x the monthly earnings and all that bull come from now,i don`t have a shop i charge that little for.
Lucky you ,and we get a minium 5x when we sell

Blimey that must make your round worth what at least 10 grand, :

:

WOW.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:36:31 pm »

im in dartford and would charge 8-10 pound for this job as wont take more than 10 mins to complete.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:45:18 pm »

Fronts only? £6.00

« **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:48:34 pm »

Cheers for that Stan but i can afford to take the time to get it there mate.

« **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:49:20 pm »

£5.00 for the fronts -Cumbria

« **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:50:15 pm »

I would have to clean exactly 500 of those houses at your prices to pay for my hot system,when you look at it like that it makes you think dosen`t it.

« **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:53:19 pm »

Could be some guys have to charge higher than others if they have invested large amounts of money in their businesses. Flash van, carbon poles signwriting all on tick plus a big mortgage. If you have that kind of outlay then your going to have to charge big money. Some of us on less outlay don't need such high incomes to produce the same profit. When the going gets tougher prices may well fall.

« **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2009, 10:55:16 pm »

Quote from: ftp on January 11, 2009, 10:53:19 pm

Could be some guys have to charge higher than others if they have invested large amounts of money in their businesses. Flash van, carbon poles signwriting all on tick plus a big mortgage. If you have that kind of outlay then your going to have to charge big money. Some of us on less outlay don't need such high incomes to produce the same profit. When the going gets tougher prices may well fall.

Most sensible answer to date.

« **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:00:49 pm »

Everytime i see some poor sod working from a ladder these days it makes me want to go up to him and ask him if he`d like to come out for the morning to see how easy his life could be, but most that i talk to give the same response as you Stan so i`ve stopped bothering now.

« **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:04:22 pm »

Quote from: Stan The Man on January 11, 2009, 10:57:52 pm

why should the customer have to pay more because you are to much of a wimp to use a ladder and need all the newest equitment

That isn't why the custy pays more Stan; it's because he feels comfortable in so doing.

If I used a ladder I'd charge more because it would take me longer than wfp.

« **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:07:14 pm »

£5.00 wfp if i was doing the houses next door or within 50 mtrs, £6.50 on it's own. (Worcester)

« **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:22:58 pm »

wfp £12 monthly or £15 BM (if i thiught i could get away with it) definately no lower than £12 though.

Surrey

« **Reply #34 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:34:43 pm »

£60 for front and £100 front and back.

I'm now using the "coach" marketing methods.

« **Reply #35 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:38:10 pm »

£7.00 in Worthing West Sussex and you cant go any further south

It would have to be near an existing job though.

« **Reply #36 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:52:10 pm »

here is my answer...it depends where it is :

i have a lot of them close together.... i charge £9 ... i could charge double for 1...but i would stillm earn less per hour....
NWH you talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

« **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2009, 11:57:42 pm »

£9.00

West Sussex/ Hampshire/Surrey Boarders

« **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2009, 05:51:50 am »

£6.00 if I had other work round there. If I didn't then probably wouldn't bother with it as I would have to charge double that to make it pay and I'm too soft to ask the owner for that amount for so few windows.

Steve a. Lancashire

« **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:54:26 am »

£7 for me but would have to have other work nearby. I'm in West Midlands.

« **Reply #40 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:54:47 am »

£10 Poole (Dorset)

« **Reply #41 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:04:20 am »

£14 or £8 front only.

« **Reply #42 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:12:30 am »

About 15quid here in Holland and thank your lucky stars that your not here everyone pays 19% VAT ....

22.50 >25 for whole house WFP.

Cheers Dave.

« **Reply #43 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:36:54 am »

£7.50 - £10 depending on how much local work i had....would take me about 20 mins incl setting up and packing away.

I would only charge £12 - £15 for fronts and backs (if no cons) as it could probably be completey done and dusted in 30 mins.

Essex by the way.

« **Reply #44 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:15:09 am »

£9

Stoke-On-Trent

« **Reply #45 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:41:55 am »

£10

SW London

« **Reply #46 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:40:10 am »

£8 for me in West Yorks as its my minimum charge, but if I had any other houses nearby I would prob charge £5
Just quoted on a largish house recently £18 for about 30 - 40 mins work. Customer said existing guy charges £9. Dont think he can do all the windows though (ps funny thing is she was willing to pay me £14, but I turned it down, also at the time of quoting customer didnt say she already had a window cleaner

« **Reply #47 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:49:47 am »

£8.00 Plymouth, Devon WFP

« **Reply #48 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:27:05 am »

£7.00

Worcester

« **Reply #49 on:** January 12, 2009, 11:21:14 am »

20.00 chichester ,west sussex

« **Reply #50 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:06:45 pm »

£7.50 trad in leicester my price
even though someone do it for aorund £4.00 mark

« **Reply #51 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:10:52 pm »

£8 4 wkly or £10 8 wkly essex

« **Reply #52 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:33:06 pm »

Quote from: mark dew on January 11, 2009, 10:06:23 pm

Am i looking at the wrong pic? I counted 4 windows.
I might take 20 minutes if it was a 1st clean. But i would prefer to have a higher flowrate and take 5.

You can't price that house front on the basis of '4 windows'
The upstairs boxroom has only 4 panes of glass
The upstairs bay has 14 panes of glass
The downstairs bay has 10 panes of glass
The porch has 6 panes of glass

When I was 'trad' I charged per pane of glass (dearer for upstairs than downstairs)
It added up to £7.80. I would have charged either £7.50 or £8.00.

I'm WFP now but use the same pricing structure.

If I had to go back to working 'trad' I'd now charge more - because it's harder work and potentially more dangerous.

Mike

« **Reply #53 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:31:08 pm »

£12 front

£18 front

South East

« **Reply #54 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:33:48 pm »

Matt Cloud,

Is that 20 for the front or for the whole house?

« **Reply #55 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:27:47 pm »

looks more like east/west divide at the moment.

« **Reply #56 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:33:21 pm »

if on its own £9 but if i had a few in area then between £4 or £5

« **Reply #57 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:36:56 pm »

£7 front / £13-15 for the whole house ,
only if it was within or next to my other work !
harrow / middx . ( trad ).

« **Reply #58 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:49:07 pm »

9-10 pounds for the front trad
essex
a lot of low prices here.just thinking how some cover the expenses with this quotes.it's a buisness not a job window cleaning.as a company u cannnot charge 4-5 pounds for something like this

« **Reply #59 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:53:00 pm »

Quote from: J&A Cleaning Services on January 12, 2009, 02:49:07 pm

9-10 pounds for the front trad
essex
a lot of low prices here.just thinking how some cover the expenses with this quotes.it's a buisness not a job window cleaning.as a company u cannnot charge 4-5 pounds for something like this

yes you can our company has been trading since 1960 and doing very well thankyou and as said if i had a few in area then it would be between £4 and £5 but they would have to pay vat on top of that

« **Reply #60 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:56:18 pm »

Traditional
£10 min charge
Cirencester Glos in the Cotswolds

« **Reply #61 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:17:14 pm »

£10-12 Britn& Hove

« **Reply #62 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:34:21 pm »

whole house rob

« **Reply #63 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:50:09 pm »

seven pounds,kent

« **Reply #64 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:52:10 pm »

So long as it was on my round, minimum charge of a tenner. HANTS.

« **Reply #65 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:59:08 pm »

8 to £ 10 seems fair. wfp forest of dean

mike

« **Reply #66 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:32:28 pm »

As soon as i come on line eh lol. :

« **Reply #67 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:42:06 pm »

£5.00- North Tyneside. without the car windows...

« **Reply #68 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:49:37 pm »

£10 for me - Brighton

« **Reply #69 on:** January 12, 2009, 07:53:47 pm »

£10 min 4 weekly.. f&b wfp south wales

poss cheaper if i have more of the neighbours

« **Reply #70 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:16:49 pm »

MO - Have you noticed how many new vans there are around here now and how the prices have dropped

« **Reply #71 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:23:21 pm »

Quote from: Mike 108 on January 12, 2009, 12:33:06 pm

Quote from: mark dew on January 11, 2009, 10:06:23 pm
Am i looking at the wrong pic? I counted 4 windows.
I might take 20 minutes if it was a 1st clean. But i would prefer to have a higher flowrate and take 5.
You can't price that house front on the basis of '4 windows'
The upstairs boxroom has only 4 panes of glass
The upstairs bay has 14 panes of glass
The downstairs bay has 10 panes of glass
The porch has 6 panes of glass

When I was 'trad' I charged per pane of glass (dearer for upstairs than downstairs)
It added up to £7.80. I would have charged either £7.50 or £8.00.

I'm WFP now but use the same pricing structure.

If I had to go back to working 'trad' I'd now charge more - because it's harder work and potentially more dangerous.
Mike

I just had another look to see what i'd missed. I don't think i have. It's very easy work and not much time. Reverse in, open van door, grab pole, turn on pump and clean. No need to unwind hosereel.
Generous flow, rinse on the glass. Pole back in van. Slip through letterbox and gone.
You are right about pricing it though. I would have charged £5 when i was trad. But since i got wfp the next best thing i did was to have a £10 min charge. So what i reckon would take me around 5 minutes on maintenace cleans would be a cost of £10.
Beccles area, north suffolk

« **Reply #72 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:16:29 pm »

5 mins...lol....

« **Reply #73 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:25:56 pm »

£8.00 if it was next to anyother one i do. or £12.00 on its own. live near sandhurst

« **Reply #74 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:25:00 pm »

Quote from: sageorgeta on January 12, 2009, 09:16:29 pm

5 mins...lol....

due to the scepticism shown towards my 5 minute estimate i am wondering if i am being too optimistic??

But i don't think so. Although i haven't done a time and motion study on a front only.
I have a similar looking job and i will just pull the hose to the front and time myself.
I don't know what else to say? I use a 17ft xtel pole, between 1 and 1/12 lpm flow rate. I don't rinse off the glass, i rinse on. I also give a quick brush over the frames. I'm fit enough to reel my hose in quickly without mechanical aid.

My 5 minutes

is based on the customer not being home and i post a chit to send me a cheque.
I have a cup of tea in the morning and don't stop for a break until i get the days scheduled work finished and i then go home. And have the 2nd cup.
This is also on maintenance cleans. 1st cleans i take however long it takes to be thorough and i will go back at the end of the day to check that they are spotless.
After the jobs come up good the 1st time i don't hang around on future cleans.
But the little seed of doubt has been planted in my mind. Maybe i ain't as quick as i think?

But i will check.

« **Reply #75 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:54:00 pm »

so now you can see the north south divide... some gloat at charging more... others understand thats just the way it is , cost of living slightly higher in the south, so the prices will be higher so , in reality we all earn about the same , as things must be cheaper in the north too...

dont think the cost of set up has much to do with it, after all a joiner cant put his prices up because he now uses an electric screwdriver instead of a hand driven.

there is a difference between north and south. but it all balances out.

« **Reply #76 on:** January 13, 2009, 11:30:13 am »

3.50 liverpool

« **Reply #77 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:26:07 pm »

£10 min chg. 8 mins?

« **Reply #78 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:44:33 pm »

Any luck on the van Dave.

« **Reply #79 on:** January 13, 2009, 05:56:01 pm »

i think it is fair to say that there are cheap and expensive w/c ers wherever you are in the uk , as i said previously i would charge £12 min for the front and i am in SE , however i am "expensive" , i say this in the terms that there are plenty of w/c ers near me that would do this for a non SE price) i.e. £5.

So dont think that each new customer in the south east is happy to pay these rates because of being in the SE but the prices i charge are achievable. I still have a number of refusals when i quote because my price (and most other CIU SE based w/c ers) is higher than most. You can still get your windows cleaned for tuppence even down here!!

« **Reply #80 on:** January 13, 2009, 06:40:51 pm »

Minimum charge on new work is £10 as i dont need the work if their was more work nearby that would make a great hourly rate and i agree maintanance clean on that house would take 5 mins

« **Reply #81 on:** January 13, 2009, 07:07:20 pm »

£10, 5 to 6 mins, Surrey.

Nick

« **Reply #82 on:** January 13, 2009, 08:04:01 pm »

£10 B'm'th

« **Reply #83 on:** January 16, 2009, 07:32:23 am »

£4 here in scotland

« **Reply #84 on:** January 16, 2009, 08:15:17 am »

« **Reply #85 on:** January 16, 2009, 12:52:44 pm »

front only, 7.50 , afterall its only 10 mins work

« **Reply #86 on:** January 16, 2009, 03:24:51 pm »

Quote from: Ewan on January 16, 2009, 11:44:25 am

I wouldn’t do that job or similar now. I do have a minimum but I would still be reluctant to take it on, even if my price were accepted.

There are types of work you can outgrow, and you would have to charge a lot more for you to make it worth your while.

Some window cleaners (and customers) misunderstand this as overpricing. When it’s just a window cleaner maintaining his profitability.

Ewan

Although there were good, and valid, points in the post, it sounds like you are 'bragging'.

I understand what you're saying ("There are some types of work you can outgrow").

But, before you outgrew this type of work, what would you have charged for cleaning the front of the house in the picture? And how long would it have taken?

Prices so far have ranged from £3.50 - £15.00 (minimum charge)
The fastest time was 5 mins!!

If you are unable to give such information, there seems little point in posting on this particular topic. Don't you agree?

Mike

« **Reply #87 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:30:17 pm »

Quote from: Ewan on January 16, 2009, 11:44:25 am

I wouldn’t do that job or similar now. I do have a minimum but I would still be reluctant to take it on, even if my price were accepted.

How much will it cost you to do?

How much net profit do you need to keep in line with the rest of your business?

If you get that wrong and take on the work all you are doing is reducing the profitability of your business. While being under the illusion your business is growing just because you have another customer on the books.

There are types of work you can outgrow, and you would have to charge a lot more for you to make it worth your while.

Some window cleaners (and customers) misunderstand this as overpricing. When it’s just a window cleaner maintaining his profitability.

What a perfect answer.

« **Reply #88 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:06:02 pm »

Quote from: NWH on January 16, 2009, 05:30:17 pm

Quote from: Ewan on January 16, 2009, 11:44:25 am
I wouldn’t do that job or similar now. I do have a minimum but I would still be reluctant to take it on, even if my price were accepted.

How much will it cost you to do?

How much net profit do you need to keep in line with the rest of your business?

If you get that wrong and take on the work all you are doing is reducing the profitability of your business. While being under the illusion your business is growing just because you have another customer on the books.

There are types of work you can outgrow, and you would have to charge a lot more for you to make it worth your while.

Some window cleaners (and customers) misunderstand this as overpricing. When it’s just a window cleaner maintaining his profitability.

What a perfect answer.

That's this week, what will you think next week?

Still slummin' it in that old connect dude?

Tony

« **Reply #89 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:18:24 pm »

Yeah only for a while longer now,i`ve just got myself a new Merc though.

« **Reply #90 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:19:16 pm »

Darn credit crunch.

« **Reply #91 on:** January 16, 2009, 07:45:05 pm »

Ewan

I understand both your replies and agree that your policy/strategy is a good one (even the correct one).

What I was pointing out was that your first answer did not contribute anything to the discussion on the 'North/South Divide on Prices' (which was the Topic).

Mike

« **Reply #92 on:** January 17, 2009, 10:38:52 am »

in scotland ye wid be laughe dout of town quoting 10 quid for that. Most likely you would find yourself in anothe rjob within a month.

10 quid for that is nothing more than a rip off IMO.

« **Reply #93 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:47:40 am »

Quote from: Ewan on January 16, 2009, 04:48:23 pm

If I go back to when I first started window cleaning I would have been very happy to get another customer and would have probably taken me 30 mins first clean (10-15 mins regular clean) and I would have charge £5.

Few months later I would have probably charge £7.50 double £15 first clean.

Several months on, window cleaning minimum price would have been £10 £20 first clean and so on.

Ewan

To change the area of discussion, slightly:

I'm curious as to how you have dealt with your earliest customers whom you were originally charging £5, and your later customers whom you were charging £7.50.

When you began charging £10 (or more) for similar properties, did you increase the prices for your earlier customers to £10 also (take it or leave it) - or did you raise them a lesser amount and keep them on, out of loyalty - or did you just 'drop' them without any explanation.

There has been lots of advice given by other members regarding this 'problem' of 'what to do with underpaid jobs' - I'd like to hear your approach.

Are you a 'nice guy' or a single-minded, hard headed business man?

Whatever your answer, this will be my last posting on this 'thread'

Mike

« **Reply #94 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:56:15 am »

i no a company in perth ..scotland that charge £10 minimum charge. and they get it no probs.in fife east coast scotland u would get £1.75 in some places £3.50 for the whole house.

« **Reply #95 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:14:19 pm »

I would charge £12 for this clean ie: windows,frames,doors using wfp

« **Reply #96 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:36:21 pm »

Out of curiosity Ewan, what's a round of sixty underpriced customers worth?
I'd love to see the van and equipment that bought you. Does it have three wheels and would it be yellow by any chance?

« **Reply #97 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:44:18 pm »

Ewan

Thanks for the reply.

Oi!! ftp

Don't be naughty!

Mike

« **Reply #98 on:** January 17, 2009, 03:41:13 pm »

£5 in Plymouth, it'll only take a short time to clean.

« **Reply #99 on:** January 17, 2009, 03:56:40 pm »

Ewan, you really need to consider health and safety more : not only could i have choked on my coffee but i nearly spurted it into my laptop, this could have started an electrical fire and maybe burnt my house down. You are therefore more dangerous to me than any gas heater!

« **Reply #100 on:** January 17, 2009, 04:07:15 pm »

Quote from: ftp on January 17, 2009, 03:56:40 pm

Ewan, you really need to consider health and safety more : not only could i have choked on my coffee but i nearly spurted it into my laptop, this could have started an electrical fire and maybe burnt my house down. You are therefore more dangerous to me than any gas heater!

I learned that one ages ago- NEVER have anything in your mouth or hands when reading Ewan's posts, can make a real mess you know!

« **Reply #101 on:** January 17, 2009, 05:14:36 pm »

Oh i see, you didn't need money to live off, feed yourself and pay the bills so you made £6000 to put by for your new van. I think i would have kept them on if they were making so much money. Yes, as usual i didn't understand.

« **Reply #102 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:02:41 pm »

£8 trad cardiff. take 10 mins