[Mike_Boxall]

For those that are interested, just to put the record straight:

As most of you will be aware the ‘Carpet Cleaners Day Out’ was promoted heavily, and pretty much exclusively, on this forum. Although there was a charge to cover ‘expenses’ members were led to believe that it was ‘by carpet cleaners for carpet cleaners’. We didn’t get any revenue from the event and, on the basis that it was not a commercial exercise, we were perfectly happy with that. However, there’s now a separate website for it with it’s own forum and it is now clearly being promoted with a view to the organisers making money from it next time. We’re not a charity and we’re not prepared to give others a free ride particularly when they don’t reciprocate!

But it’s not just about the money. I have concerns about the quality of these events particularly for those new to the industry.  There is often a lot of misinformation regarding machines and methods and we’re not prepared to accept any liability for any issues that may arise. I distinctly recall one of the last presenters recommending a ‘trial and error’ approach, which is simply not the way for a new operator to learn!

Now with others jumping on the bandwagon and organising ‘training events’ they will need to pay to advertise the event AND satisfy us that they know what they’re doing. There are enough cowboys in this industry already and we would rather promote training from an appropriate recognised and established body.

When Paul posted the topic about his ‘boot camp’ he was simply asked to contact me to discuss it. If he had done so, this situation would not have occurred. Simon Gerrard was banned for posting slanderous comments under a second user name. Pete Sweeney was not banned and clearly thinks he can get some pr for his next ‘day out’ by telling people he has been. Regrettably, Dave Liahona decided to delete himself without knowing all the facts.

I'm sure many would agree that the forum would benefit from the loss of one or two other ‘deletions’ so those that think we are being unreasonable can remove themselves by going to > Profile > Actions > Delete this account

I hope those that wish to stay will benefit from a better forum in the future

Regards

Mike Boxall

[Jim_77]

() <---Egg........Face----> :0

Roll up roll up!

Who still feels like bleating?

[RAM Cleaning]

well it makes a litte more sense now, and in one hand i can see why you as the forum admininistrator removed some people from the board.  I can also see why others may have removed themselves.

But on the other hand, your rules rules state at sign up,
Please remember that we do not actively monitor the posted messages and are not responsible for their content. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any information presented. The messages express the views of the author, not necessarily the views of this YaBB forum.
So surely the above removes you of any liabilty??

I beleive that most training is trial and error, the only difference is you DON'T use that approach on a custys carpet.  All training is different, if you go to a prochem training course it will differ from a chemspec training course as they train with their products, and there method is right, but as you know you don't use just one brand of product, or very rarely, you have a mixture of products so you have to trial and error to make sure they are compatable.  I know for a fact that prochem wont tell you to prespray with one of their products then rinse with someone elses product!!!! why would they.

Personally i don't think the forum should receive any financial reward directly for anything resulting from the forum, surely that is why it is "Sponsored" by cleaning express, where they have advertising on the forum and probably generate a good amount of interest directly from that.

That is my personal opinon wheter it is right or wrong, some may agree some may disagree, but i think we will all have to agree to disagree and let the tumbleweed blow through and it will all calm down in a day or two and hopefully some normality and sense will return, and the forum will go back to giving out good advice.  I just hope freedom of choice does return and i personally don't like to have doors closed, i can make my own mind up as to whether something is right for me or not.

Richard

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Jim stop being a pratt it's a serious matter.

Shaun

[spencer davies]

And Jim is a moderator on another forum 

S

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Mike

Thank you for explaining your side of things.

I still feel that the situation could have been nipped in the bud before it escalated into members being banned or deleting themselves.

Personally, I think the forum will be poorer for their loss.

I am not going to cut my nose off to spite my face as I get a lot out of this site, but having said that I think it's a shame.

Steve

[Neil Grainger]

Mike

I understand what you are saying mike, this is your forum and you can run it how you like. I would if it was mine.

We have be told that you wanted a large cut of any profit made on the next event, is this true becasue they said no, you took the action you did.

I have stayed out of this because generally I like this forum alot and it has given me so much. I dont want to be banned but I would like the truth about this.

Kind Regards

Neil

[carlton care]

RAM
Within all industries there are R&D departments where new products, machines, carpets, fabrics, leather finishes, etc, are hammered to death, with everything available.

This is usually well away from the public gaze, but it's gone on for decades and involves dedicatet people, who make sure the public's and the users safety are never compromised.

In that environment trial and error is acceptable, because everything is conducted in a controlled environment and all results are recorded and analysed, before decisions are made as to the suitability or otherwise of any method or product.

There is no need to gamble, although in my early years I did plenty of experimentation, on my own furniture usually, but occasionally on trashed items.

Today, there is no need, as there are loads of training professionals who keep up with new products and methods and keep it safe for you and me.

[Darren O]

I seen this coming i think there were some on here who thought they were bigger than the forum.Hopefully things can get back to some normality.

[carlton care]

Darren

You saw it. I saw it. Why is anyone else surprised.

robert m

[Gerry Styles]

RAM

I do not believe training is trail and error, that indicates to me the the trainer does not know his subject. It is folly to use trial and error that is what causes injury to people and damage to property I trained with Prochem and would see no reason for them to endorse another product at one of thier sessions.

I am also a trainer/assessor for BICSc and an assessor for NVQ. Both use tried and tested training materials and systems.

[Mike Osbourne]

There you go Jim, there's enough room now for your ego to take over the forum.

Will you be the new enforcer/moderator in the style of the other ruined Forum? I'm sure Mike B will welcome your approach.

CCDO-money making, that's a joke too right? And with regards to the professionalism of the Presenter that is Dave Liahona, Doug and Paul if the term 'trial and error' was used I honestly think it has been taken out of context to shore up a poor argument.

re other forums, weren't interested, cos this was the best by far.

[Jim_77]

No ego Mike, just having a bloody good laugh at something I find quite funny - how easily led some people are.

[Neil Grainger]

CCDO website was only started after this forum banned any talk or posts about it & when it became apparrent that no money was going to be made, this is from my memory of events. Lots of people gave a lot of free time to make it work

Lots of spin going on here me thinks. shame because it makes me feel unsettled about what to believe and what not to believe.

[Barry Livingstone]

By the looks of it mike would want more of us too go....................but has NO reason to ban the people he is on about ....

At the end of the day experienced carpet cleaners are no longer on this forum.. i would say its the forum thats missin out ....

But i also understand that this should have been sorted out over the weekend and not aloud to get as bad as it did....

[davep]

It would have but people where banned and no reason given.  Poor management over the whole affair has pushed people away and onto other forums.

[garyj]

I think it was a shame Paul was banned, even though I have had many battles with him over the years I have grown to look forward to his wit and wisdom since his return, I have been here long enough to know he has left a couple of times before.

I think I was the only person who said anything against the initial few leather days, and even then I had worked out where it was heading, in fact I thought it would of happened a lot sooner. The leather battles were fun for all who watched, and I do think Judy overstepped the line at times as well.

But have to say would I have allowed this to happen if it was MY forum and the answer is no. I think the forum may be poorer for the recent loses, but the information we get now will be from a reliable source, I have never met Judy or Andy and have to say I do not really wish to, but saying that I can understand their frustration as they both know what they are talking about and are undoutably experts in what they do.

Personalities aside I can tell you now what is going to happen in the near future.
The little clique has gone, it will be replaced, the forum will continue as before, the information we all need will still be here, the questions we have, just answered by different people. Every now and then there will be a little raid to unsettle the board and it will get fun again.

Over the years I have lost key staff and key contracts and at times the company has looked finished, but each time replacements come along and things carry on as before. Sometimes the company has needed the clear-out and it has been a blessing in disguise.

If what I have read is true I am disappointed in Simon Gerard, it was insinuated a couple of weeks ago he had 2 accounts, if he did why? If he did not then we are all being taken as mugs and owe him an apology, saying that he did leave no option but to be banned, I was online at the time of the posts yesterday and things did get out of hand, as I said last week, he certainly does not look like a trouble maker.

While I think right now it is a loss to the forum, the decision has been made and the fun is over for a bit. It is just a case now of waiting to see who the new personalities will be, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here so it will carry on. Do think it is going to be a bit tame and quieter here for a few weeks though. I am going to miss the banter and temper tantrums from all concerned,  I bet MB is actually relieved!!
As for the people who have not posted, they do not have to, they are not accountable to us and they have the right to keep their silence.

Still think it is a shame so many have gone though, but bad luck, I am staying because I like it here even though I do go to another forum where it is far friendlier the real information and expert advice is here, and always will be. I expect there is a lot more that has happened and people like me will never know the full story, even the moderators claimed to not know what was going on, if that is true then that is poor.
I think there are a lot of people like me here at the moment who do not know what to believe, but has half educated adults we can make up our own minds, it is so far our decision weather to come on here or not and for me it is still a yes.

But at the end of the day, do not forget, it is only cleaning 

[craigp]

Gary,

years ago when you and I was on here more your posts always made me laugh, Like me you dont take things to seroiusly I think this is the first serious post I have read by you!!

My experience of paul is that he a generous top bloke and will help any of us out best he could.

Most times when you have 2 sides of a story the truth lies somwhere in the middle. add to that missinterpretation, bad communication ect.
So we need to remember before people go off on one like they did we dont know the whole story and its not clear cut.

livened up the place though!

[carlton care]

Good post Gary. I had typed out a similar one but yours is better. I would like to say, though, that Andy of Ltt does not get involved in the internet and is an excellent teacher with vast experience who does in fact carry out regular cleaning and repairs in their workshop. Definitely worth a visit.

robert m

[carlton care]

James

What are you gibbering about.............there are are dozens of highly experienced and skilled carpet upholstery and leather cleaners on here, some with 20 or more years of experience.

If you look back you will find sharing information and knowledge is not new, far from it !

[richie]

Mike Boxall,

As already said........could this not have been handled in a better manner?  Members that have been banned or have deleted themselves in recent days had ALOT to offer on a forum like CIU.  Is there any possibility of bridges been repaired?  As we all know...the carpet cleaning industry is a very close community therefore people like Simon, Paul & david have much to offer other CCs especially newcomers who are genuine about doing well in the CC trade.  CT went downhill after the banning started.  As most on here know i was banned for what Nick described as "causing trouble",  the biggest issue was because i was letting other CCs know my thoughts regarding PC Pure Clean when it first came out.  Most of us in this great trade enjoy helping & offering info to other CCs.  I would hate to see CIU lose members like CT did. 

Richie.

[Barry Livingstone]

Carton care ...i no this i came back to thie forum on October 26, 2005.. what am saying we lost some good Vocal members...!!!

[RAM Cleaning]

Carlton Care,

Of course all the companys have R & D departments etc etc , what i was saying is that major manufacturers like prochem will only train you to use prochem chemicals, which is fair do, but you may be happier to use a variety of brands, for whatever reason be it price or personal preference, so a little experimenting to make sure two different brands of products work together does no harm, as i said as long as you do it on your own furninshing rather than the custys.  Yes there are independent trainers out there that will also train using a variety of brands, but i was referring to specific companies like prochem and the alike.

Gerry.

Im not talking about training in the sense of going of to a 2 day training event, im talking more self training trying your own things out, its personal preference at the end of the day.  You can't tell me that you have been to an event and they have told you the best way to aggitate a prespray is with a sebo duo, and never thought "well i wonder if there is anything better"?, when you know there is, but you might try the best thing on the market for that job and you just don't like it, so you go back to a carpet brush, because it is your choice.

People have different opinions about different products, if they didn't there would be one company making one machine and one company making chemicals, wouldn't there................................?

The boot camp from what i could gather was more of a get together of fellow carpet cleaners sharing experiences and getting demonstrations from certain people, not an actual training event.  That is how i saw it, if im wrong well then im wrong.

[garyj]

RAM, from what I read into it the original training days were free ( apart from the fiver for the food  ), the next step was far different, this is how I read it at the time ( but as you know, I am very often wrong  ).

The next Boot Camp was to be a 3 day event which was going to be chargeable, nothing wrong in that, but perhaps with a captive audience and a clique in place they went about it the wrong way.
Some of the methods used are disputed by experts, they might work but what are the long term effects? No one knows, so is it right that these methods should be used yet.
But the bit that sat heavy with me was that no price was forthcoming, BUT a price was put out by part of the team in a way that made it sound like he did not know and he was interested. It was along the lines of " if it is less than £300 count me in". Anyone with half a brain put two and two together and was thinking, this guy has just spent a weekend with one of them, he knows how much it is plus it was a bit more free advertising.
As carpet cleaners we spend a lot on advertising and are all looking for the Holey Grail, these chaps found it, right here. I find it impossible to believe that he did not know the price, was not involved  and to swerve around the moderators posted the figure as a third party. I do not know how much this event is, but at a guess £295, perhaps someone will enlighten me.
It has been written here a few times that a certain lady throws her dummies out the pram, for those of you that know about NLP and mirroring ( and you should, it helps with your marketing and quote getting ) then that is exactly what has happened here. What you do not like in other people is often a prominent part of you!!
There are a hundred instances on here advertising products, some of it blatant, some of it underhand, some of it genuine recommendations, but it is a very fine line between them. The moderators job is thankless and difficult, I would not want to do it in a million years, one of them was badly abused yesterday ( I did chuckle, and to my shame agree with some of it ) but the person doing it did it to wind up other members, he does not care he has been banned, he has his own forum.
Yep, some vocal members have gone and the board will be quieter for a bit but with some people out the way perhaps the quieter ones will start to have an in-put.

Craig, Yep, them were the days  are we getting old  ,  it will. be a laugh again soon, don't forget there are other areas here that are always good for a wind-up  On the plus side now things are quieter perhaps we dont need so many mods and one might go 

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Hi Gary - I don't think we have spoken before.

I know Paul and Dave and Pete, I wouldn't call them close friends, but they have all offered me help and advice with my business at various times. There was nothing in it for them - the advice was freely offered and freely given. Whether I chose to implement it was up to me.

I have put my name down for the boot camp because I think I will learn a great deal in one weekend and have a good laugh with like-minded people.

I do think you are being a bit unfair when you suggested that Pete was using some kind of back door marketing by saying " providing it is less than £ 300 then I'm in" - Pete has just spent a great deal of money on a stand at a local county show and has just found out his wife is expecting again. I think he was genuinely suggesting how much he could afford.

For the record I still don't know how much the weekend will cost, but I presume as it is taking place over 3 days, then any costs involved will be for food and accomodation, however, I stand to be corrected on that.

Steve

[carlton care]

If that was the case, why would a charge in the region of £300 be raised ?

I know what you mean Gerry and years ago, training was virtually non existant, so, yes, you either tried something and liked it, or tried to find other products. I suspect I've sourced and tried many products you've never even heard of, but although I've experimented it's always been with caution.

There is and has been for some time many training opportunities in all aspects of cleaning, from many sources, mostly hands on mostly one manufacturer, but you can obtain samples from most suppliers and all you have to do is follow the instructions or post a question.

Answers will be in conflict though, as what one likes another does'nt.

Suites tend to need a bit more caution than carpets and leather needs a lot more caution than fabrics, but there is excellent training, which covers all aspects of cleaning and restoration.

If you want to go down any other route, that's up to you, but remember whose valuable property your dealing with and whether the products or methods you use would be acceptable to your insurance. Very important !

We could talk all day about the pros and the cons of what's safe, what works best, how much to charge and so on, but when the talking stops your personal reality will set in and you will do what you're comfortable with.

Doesn't mean there's an absolute right way or absolute wrong way, but there are guidelines to follow, for good reasons.

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Probably because a 2 day training course with suppliers is around £200, therefore 3 days £300 - but in anycase no price has been set yet.

[garyj]

As I said Steve, I could be wrong, I hope I am. It does look staged though especially considering what has happened in the past with other products. I know that Pete did the Kent Show recently and from what I gather Dave was there too, so forgive me for thinking that Pete is more aware of the situation than he might be.
I am not against what they are doing, far from it, I am sure it will be a great day, if I was them I would do the same, but would have gone about it in a different manner.
I did not even know that anyone actually read my posts  

[garyj]

Probably because a 2 day training course with suppliers is around £200, therefore 3 days £300 - but in anycase no price has been set yet.

I might have just done every one a huge favour, just to prove me wrong the price will drop dramatically.
So you all owe me a beer 

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

I hope you're right Gary - i've just done 2 days at LTT, doing 2 days at NCCA next week plus all the travelling ( why are all these bloody courses up north ! ), so I could do with one being a bit cheaper. 

[Mike Osbourne]

Steve

I'm going on the Surrey one in September with the 25% discount. 

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Surrey one !! - what bloody Surrey one, no-one told me 

[Mike Osbourne]

GOTCHA!

Sorry Steve couldn't resist. 

[mark_roberts]

A board is only as good as its longterm knowledgeable members.  Too many newbies and not enough substance.  Youve lost a few good members in one go.

These boards have a life span.  another forum and cleantalk esp the latter are only shadows of the early days.  Cleanitup is going that direction and very quickly too.

Retreat before its too late.

Mark

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Mike - GIT 

[The Great One]

Hi

Stayed out of this, not my bag.

But...

Why shouldn't the training be paid for?

Prochem, NCCA, flood school etc all charge for training, so why not anyone else? If it was free previously, then great but there is no free lunch. Their time is precious as is mine and anyone else's.

Trial & error...

We all learn by trial and error at the beginning. I took my prochem course and training with EnviroDri (which I use) but it was still trial & error at the start until I became more comfortable with the system.

Even Prochem learnt by trial & error in the beginning.

That's it, not going to get involved with any politics.

Regards

Martin

P.S. oh, profit is not a dirty word

[carlton care]

Nothing wrong with covering expenses Martin, in fact everyone would expect that. But, this is not training by Trainers, who would have to meet all H&S, Risk, Insurance etc, requirements and be fully acredited, with premises to pay for, etc,etc.

Of course everything starts with trial and error, but the trial and error has already been done, in controlled conditions, so, it doesn't need to be done again!

The idea of the boot camp is ok and it was being targeted at novices, to get them up and running with confidence, following three days of immersion training, which again, is a good idea.

Many good ideas are just that, because at the chalk face they can falter or break down. Immersion training can be productive, but it's being practiced in trades in this country with only moderate results, as many a journeyman will confirm.

My only problem with the ideology is and always has been the idea that novices, even after completing a course or two, should be encouraged to charge top rates, when they have no real experience.

If you are of the Risk Taker /  Chancer mentality, you will love the attitude of these guys, who both like to be one of the " Lads " according to the little ditty at the bottom of their posts, ie,
" if youv'e got the balls go for it " or  " if your'e not living on the edge your'e taking up too much space "

That's fine for sport.................been their got the tee shirts, or sales / marketing / management.............again got a drawerful of tee shirts.

I'd already mentioned to Paul, that Training is big business and worth looking into. Part of our business is training, but to become a ligitimate trainer and take money from people you have to complete a number of Train the Trainer courses and take refresher courses each year.

[Neil Grainger]

Why, this course is for CC by CC, its a this is how we do it, This is real world traing not how the exam tells you to do it. If you follow the rules of CC to the letter you want get very far amd learn what really goes on.

Risk assesment, what checks do the NCCA take against CC's that pass an exam and join but could not clean a carpet to save their lives. They are not interested as the process would not be so easy to become a member otherwise, The NCCA make the public believe that they are Pro's once they have passed this exam, this is rubbish

Their are loads of NCCA members that are rubbish at cleaning carpets. Still companies are flouting the one to one rule, and the NCCA do nothing and they are still held as the bench mark.

[spencer davies]

Neil,

I see you like the word 'rubbish' but if you and I were going to quote for a job, I suspect my NCCA membership and other qualifications and memberships would probably see me get the job, telling someone that you know how to clean a carpet holds no weight.

 Who are all of these 'rubbish' NCCA carpet cleaners?


S

[Joe H]

The NCCA is a non-profit making organisation.
You say Neil, that the 1 to 1 rule is being flouted and the NCCA does nothing.
To a great extent it has to rely on members to report those flouting the rules, other then that it would require "staff" to do the policing and that costs money ie increase in fees.

The NCCA may not be doing all that could be done, and what it does do many could say could be done better, but something is usually better then nothing.

Of course if more people joined more funds would be available, and as it is non-profit making then one assumes the funds would be spent, hopefully wisely.
To make sure funds are spent wisely members are encouraged to be active, giving of their own time to ensure the idelas are being reached for. (and I am guilty of not being active, but there again I only joined in Feb/Mar so who knows what I may do in the future).

We can all sit back and moan, thats the easy part.

I joined NCCA, I have already got my first years fee back (and more) either from jobs direct from their website, or promoting it to potential clients.

One big benefit of me joining - you not only have to produce evidence of public liability insurance but also treatment risk.
I had the PL, but assumed that covered the treatment risk ie if all went pearshape on the carpet I was cleaning.
It wasnt included. I contacted my broker, who contacted the insurer, who said they dont do treatment risk.
My broker found a company thatwould and my insurance premium fell about £400 (I emply people so I need Employer Liability o initial premium was almost £1500).

So now I have piece of mind ie Treatment Risk, and saved a few hundred pound as well.

Therefore the money I have saved by joining NCCA will pay for my membership for the next 2 years.

[Neil Grainger]

Joe

Because they dont or cant check on members its makes it a group that is blind of its membership. Corgi check gas fitters all the time, as do most other Groups. All the money goes back into the membership, if its like most Associations I bet the directors do quit well out of it in expenses and the prestige it bring in, not on the level of the John Lewis list but you get my drift.

NCCA does nothing after you pass the first course and paid your fee,  as long as you pay every other year you can carry on doing it the way you want.

What did you join for Joe, to get more business I bet, not what they offer you in advice. You can get that from any forum that deals with carpet cleaning.

NCCA course is for guidence at the begining but they dont tell the public that as most people doing the course do it to find out about cleaning. Pass an exam then you are a carpet cleaning pro. Thats is wrong and misleeding the public.

If they grade the membership to Experience and qualifications than most would join, but they wont do this. Why?

[Joe H]

Discussions like this have gone on in the past, as well you probably know Neil.
Been said before as well, if more got involved then the more chance of things changing.
But "the more" wont get involved.
Basically it boils down to that some will do, whilst the majority will sit back and grumble - at the moment I am in the last group.
Chicken and egg comes to mind.

Nice day today though. Enjoy.

[Neil Grainger]

Oh yes, going out at 4 on a commercial Job, wont finnish until 2 in the morning.

Have a good day.

[Joe H]

10 hours! Phew

but think of the money

[spencer davies]

I am not sure I would be happy employing a trades person that has gained his knowledge through a forum.

The NCCA have regular publications which is a good resource along with a website, as with Joe's comment, I picked up a £425 job recently because the customer looked at the NCCA site, thank you very much!

Regards


S

[Ian Gourlay]

Joe maybee they need your energy and style.

Over the years I have noticed people try to form their own Empires  Clubs etc I can think of several.

But the one that remains cosisistent and lasts is the  NCCA

However i do think its because of the work The Stalwarts have put in.

I do not know much about the current as she keeps herself out of the Frays, but then  I never get round to joining as i have always been a loaner

[craigp]

The other side is I have been a member of NCCA for 8 months not one job from being a member , so it's just down to how much I sell it. I think its a bit to expensive. 

[Len Gribble]

If my customers insist on it then I will join not say others shouldn’t


Neil

£100 per hour less operating costs not bad.


Len

[FiberReviver]

Banned members thought that was what this post was about

Freddie

[Joe H]

Your correct Freddie, its drifted more then a little.

Helped us to get away from the bad things of last weekend though.

[FiberReviver]

Seems a shame you have lost a number of members that gave a great input to this forum.

[Neil Grainger]

Mike

am I going to get an answer to my questions please. I have a feeling that you would do well in goverment.

Kind Regards

Neil

[Joe H]

Neil
Its sad what happened last weeked and should have been avoided.

I personaly dont think you are going to get an answer to your question.

Sad times, but time to move on, the past is gone, can only go forward.

[carlton care]

Interesting to notice that a number of passive members have started posting and getting more involved over the past few days.

There are plenty of people with opposing views still on here and I'd imagine you will continue to get a steady stream of questions and answers, plus the same arguments which tend to come up regularly.

Many posts drift, just any group conversation / discussion drifts.

Neil

When comments are made about standardised training which would achieve your goal of grading, most say they don't want it. Why? Because it has a regulating element and that scares the unqualified !

If the new, or newish people coming into this industry receive training through Colleges, which I think is the best option, being nationwide and accessible to all, a National Standard is set and everyone wouls have to achieve the Standard to become a Registered Technician.

Courses have existed for years in just about every industry, or service and it gives a level at which to judge operators. Sure, you will always get the " smart ass " or the " minimum effort " types, but by offering a graded programme it will indicate clearly at what level an operator is working.

To get the kind of training the industry ( that's you ) wants the onnus is on the members of the industry to put together a series of graded packages, covering, the usual three levels of competence, with awards at each level.

Of course you will get some who will still give a poor service no matter how well qualified thet are on paper, but, there will be somewhere for the customer to go to with their complaints.

Your ideal HANDS ON TRAINING

At colleges the LECTURERS / TRAINERS are from the trade or service they teach and have to prove their competence before being accepted by the Education authorities. Some are part time spending one day a week, others full time.

It's common practice in delivering training courses, to have guests / visitors to come along and give demonstrations, or discuss real world situations, etc.

Training can be as basic, or as comprehensive as the industry wants.

Been there - Done it - Got the T shirts.

BICS have been training this way for at least 40 years, If the industry fails to set up a training organisation, you can be sure someone else will.