[Extremeclean]

Hello all

I have been avidly reading the many posts on this forum during the past week or so as I have been doing some research to help me make a signifigant business decision.

One overbearing thought is in my mind and I would like to share it with you all.

I believe that by the end of this decade the world of domestic window cleaning will be very different to the one we have now. The change is already happening and can only coninue to do so in my and many others opinions.

I often see posts referring to commercial work and how lucrative it can be. Many people therefore aspire to aquiring this pot of gold. It is a natural thing to do not only for the perceived financial rewards but also for the status associated with it.

There is also a distinction made in the mind of most between commercial and domestic work as far as competeing for it goes. Two things here. Firstly  commercial work in the main is very competetive and price sensitive. Yes of course there is the odd one that is a real money spinner but in general this is the exception. Profit margins are normally very small so to make money you have to be very efficient. Customer loyalty is also a big issue in commercial work or rather the lack of it. Why?  Competition is the answer. This is always seen to be OK by most window cleaners.

This brings me onto the 2nd point here. This competition is now beginning to surface in the domestic market and will continue to do so.
Many astute businessmen are now recognising the enormous size of the domestic market and are making inroads into it. I will give you an example. An aquaintance of mine has never cleaned a window in his life for pay. He set up a domestic window cleaning business just over 2 years ago and now has a customer base approaching 7000 and a turnover of around 2 million a year and is growing rapidly. How has he achieved this? He has applied good business sense. That is all really. Nothing more or less. His growth is not surprising to me. The market is there to be fulfilled.

The advent of affordable entry level WFP equipment and new regulations are also major factors. Hungry and ambitious individuals and I believe some corporations are setting themselves up to make signifigant inroads into this market. I am "old school" to an extent but recognise the challenges ahead and I am taking steps to face them. I do also operate in the domestic market and intend to invest heavilly to protect and grow my market share.

How many of you now get your milk from the supermarket rather than the good old door to door milkman? Most I would think. Do you do the major part of your shopping at the supermarket only popping to the local corner shop for a few items? These are just 2 examples of what used to be classed as institutions and are now in severe decline. There are many more of these and window cleaning will go the same way. Regulation, technology, demand, labour cost etc all will play their part in the inevitable.

This is my opinion and you may disagree with it thinking that no-one will ever be able to take your customers from you. I have watched our industry change and moved with the times in order to stay ahead of the competition. I know that many here will already have recognised what I am saying. They are investing in their businesses and not burying their heads in the sand.

You are going to have to fight just as hard to protect your domestic customer base as those involved in commercial work already do. My advice is. Be prepared.

I know this will probably provoke some entertaining replies. It is my honest belief and has been posted as such.

[Simon Carter]

7000 clients in two years!. Allowing for attrition, that probably equates to about 100 new clients on average per week. Any insight it to how his business is structured?. He must have his marketing & his organisational skills spot on.

[Extremeclean]

Hello Simon

I see by your previous posts that you employ a number of people yourself.

I hope you understand that I can't go into the nitty gritty of exactly how he has done it. That to my mind would be a betrayal of confidence.

What I can say is that he does invest very heavilly in marketing. A combination of effective marketing tools as well. Yes he does run a very tight ship as well. He has invested again very heavily in technology not the least part of which was a totally bespoke computer system that basically takes almost all manual input out of the equation. He puts back into the business a large proportion of income to ensure that he can take care of the basics.

The last time I talked to him a few weeks ago his average new customer intake per week was around 200. He does account for attrition in his business plan as well.

As an employer yourself you no doubt realise just how important a good business plan is to both monitor and grow any serious business.

[D woods]

Hi Etremeclean
Can I ask what part of the UK your aquaintance works in?

[Majestic]

Etremeclean
Are you now going to tell us you can how he has done it ( for a price )

I do a mixture of Commercial & Domestic.
By far the best payers are the domestic cusomers.

With Commercial work you can wait up to 60 days for payment.
 Domestic most of the time its payment as soon as you have finished the job

[Extremeclean]

Hi Etremeclean
Can I ask what part of the UK your aquaintance works in?

The South East. The only real restraining factor he has is recruiting quality staff but then again we all have that problem.

[Extremeclean]

Etremeclean
Are you now going to tell us you can how he has done it ( for a price )

I do a mixture of Commercial & Domestic.
By far the best payers are the domestic cusomers.

With Commercial work you can wait up to 60 days for payment.
 Domestic most of the time its payment as soon as you have finished the job

Hello John.

He mortgaged his house to the hilt. Went to a bank with a realistic business plan and got their backing in the form of a large loan and overdraft. He had done his market research and then put his plan into action. Hired good marketing staff, good cleaning and admin staff. Bought equipment and all that goes with it.

12 to 14 hour days seven days a week for a long time as well. It's only recently that he has been able to start to take it a bit easier. I remember when I was as enthusiastic and dedicated as he is. His success does demonstrate that a lot can be done in a relatively short time and also that the market is there.


I agree with you very much about the commercial work. I tried to point that out in my opening post in this thread. The real money I think is in domestic work. What I am trying to point out is that entrepenaureal  << is that how you spell it?  people are recognising the potential of this market and we will see much more competition in the next few years in the domestic sector of our work. We all need to be prepared for this and take steps now rather than too late.

[Majestic]

Every day I think I am going to work that bit longer,or  do a bit more canvassing . But I am at the age now when I think I have earned x ammount and am happy with that its time to go home .
On the other forum is a very motivated man
Paul C Smith ,  his posts are really good reading everytime I read one of his posts it makes me think I should do more

[Ian_Giles]

I'm not sure that I agree with much of what you have stated, very few people will havethe ability to build a business of that size in a totally labour intensive industry, not forgetting that if you are employing then you also have to supply vehicles and equipment, all of these things push up your overheads particularly in the domestic arena.
Employing people is expensive, on the other forum another guy detailed why he was several pounds more expensive on domestic work than the majority of window cleaners, basically you simply cannot compete purely on price, one man outfits will always be able to work cheaper (and still make good money) than the big firms that employ dozens of window cleaners.
So in that respect the domestic market will not change that much, big firms will not compete.
7000 domestic customers, 200 new ones a week???
You are almost talking about employing a new window cleaner every week, then he has to be trained, that alone will take a couple of months before he reaches a competant level.
I have employed a great many over the years, some may last a few years, others may only last a day, some you have to sack for incompetance, overseeing the work they do is also time consuming, if this isn't done they will screw you over and cut corners, leading to lost customers and so on.
7000 customers in two years?
if that is in a domestic market that is an average price of £23 per customer per month (£2,000,000 per year)
I'm sorry, but I don't believe your tale, and in the unlikely event you are on the up and up, very few will will get even remotely close to that.

[matt]

from my point of view, my commercail pay ALOT more then my domestic

ask me which i prefere though

Domestic Every day of the week

they are "semi" loyal (the odd bad apple still spoils my day)

Im helping a guy start up right now, i worked with him in the building trade, and he is fed up with the poor pay and poor hours

stories of 7000 customers in two years make this job sound great, in reality, that doesnt happen

[Extremeclean]

This is now getting interesting as I predicted it would.

I cannot verify the accuracy of the info I have been given. As I said the person in question is a mere aquaintance of mine. I have seen his pricing structure and when I first saw it my reply was that no way would people pay it. It is a few weeks since I spoke to him on the phone. I was told that in May he put 3 new vans on the road and planned for 3 per month for the foreseeable future. For all I know he could be in financial trouble although I doubt that he is.

What I am trying to illustrate here is that some very talented and driven people and organisations are now recognising the potential of our market. I like John Garnett had got to the stage where I earned enough and to be honest had got rather complacent. In fact what I am far more concerned about is the availability of very cheap labour from Eastern Europe. I know of quite a few window cleaning companies who now employ them and prefer them to our native workforce not so much for the money aspect but the willingness of them to do a very good job for their employers. You only have to look at the downturn in the previously astronomical earnings of plumbers in and around London to see the effect this can have. I have had all of the problems with employees that Ian Giles has mentioned so I understand his scepticism.

I still believe that our market will change and that the demands on us to remain viable will increase. Many of my aquaintances are sick of the competetive nature of the commercial market and it's cash flow problems and are are looking to diversify. It's all a wake up call to me and I for one don't intend to roll over and give up. I see where I need to change. Both in my attitude and working practices.

[steve m]

well thats it then, if the east europeans are in the area, cut your prices by half. I know I lost 44 three stories to them.

[paul mather]

I managed to read through the essay (gave war & peace a run for it's money) & as my old dad would say  "Where did you read that, Billy's Weekly Liar".

 There is no way you can pick that much work up in the space of two years, marketing or no marketing.

The very nature of window cleaning means it will always allow the single trader to earn a decent living with the flexibility to enjoy their life to the full. Some may choose to employ people, that is their perogative, but it's not for me & I suspect a great many on this forum. Our livelyhood will still be there in another 20 years time.

The only sector I can really see changing is with commercial work & the use of WFP. I can forsee a time in the not too distant future when if you don't use a WFP you needn't bother trying to quote for WFP work.

Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous

[JohnL]

Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous


But the big boys will jump at the chance to employ people who will only demand possibly half of the present going wage rate. Thats where the change will be apparent.

Like you I cannot foresee a time when the domestic - sole operator market will be threatened by immigrants.

JohnL

[jeff1]

I find this very hard to believe, and I am just waiting for you to make us all the offer of this fantastic fortune spinner, no insult intended but you really do sound like a sale's rep.

I have had customers in the domestic and commercial market from day one and that was nine years ago,

I have seen other window cleaners come and go in my erea, I have also seen window cleaning company's come and go, the thing is that my customers have given me loyalty, they have been touted by cheaper wc including the shops that I do, but because I am regular and must do a good job they have turned them away. now thats loyalty,

One thing you havn't mentioned is his loss of customer base, There is no way on this earth that he can keep them all happy and there must be a loss % unless he has loyal staff, and a few guy's on here will tell you that is very difficult to achive on a small basis never mind a large basis this guy is supposedly working on.

There still is a vast market out there, but I doubt very much if one guy aloan could build up a £2.000.000 business in two years, I am sure most of the guy's on here would love to earn just a quarter of that?

These are just my thoughts and opinions, and are not meant as an insult to you or your intelligence.

[Extremeclean]

No I am selling nothing at all.

The bulk of the replies dont susprise me at all.

As for customer loyalty. Just wait for the fully WFP equipped sign written vans staffed by presentable uniformed staff that are prepared to work for for a wage that will allow a well run company to do just as good a job at say two thirds of your prices because their equipment allows them to underprice you because of productitivity. I did say by the end of the decade at the start.  WFP will be the accepted method of cleaning domestics by then. Watch the way regulations move the industry towards this.

I have been trialling WFP equipment on my domestic work for some time now and have proved to myself the increase in productivity so I am ready to accept the challenges ahead in the knowledge that if competition means that I will have to cut prices to retain customers I will still have a viable business. This happens all the time in the commercial market. My prediction still is that this will migrate to the domestic market over the next 3 or 4 years.

Do as you please.

Good luck to you all with your busnesses.

[paul mather]

I completely agree with you that WFP is the way forward. For those of us that clean commercial premises it will be a requirement & for those that do domestic work it will be advantageous.

I am currently switching all my work over to WFP & it will make my life easier & I will be able to earn more money.

I think the main problem I have with your posting is how it reads. It is full of business buzz words & terms that have more to do with the city than with WCing. Let's not kid ourselves, that's all I'm trying to say.

[dai]

Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous.
Assylum seeker's are forbidden to work by law. If any are working then they do so illegally. Dai

[P @ F]

Extreme clean , are you sure you are not this person who has the multi million pound company ?
 It just seems that you know far too much about this persons company , why do you not work for him ?
 I smell arat is all !

 Rich   P @ F  

[jouk45]

extremeclean,   you sliped up, it is you

             

so I am ready to accept the challenges ahead