Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« on: June 12, 2008, 12:51:57 pm »
Hi Guys,

I am no expert here, but after looking at the forum in quite alot of detail I notice there are alot of questions on Pricing.

What I also notice is not many of the answers actually give a clear and precise pricing structure.

Example Say we have a quote that is 7.5 hours over 5 days. Thats an 1.5 hours per day £9.30 per hour £69.75 p/week+vat if your vat registered.   Is this too expensive?

If you have more hours should you charge less?

why does it seem that although this forum was I believe to help other individuals like myself and many many others, why do we lack to get a straight answer. ::)

I have read that yes, phone up the competitors to get a price... not many do that... they want to visit the site then give a price.... So any tips.

There must be a company on this forum, that has a winning formula that is tried and tested to win contracts. Obviously I know we wont win all of them...

There must be a winning formula somewhere, into winning quotes. Is there anyone out there that can give a straight clear cut answer or that has some good tips on the initial quote layout, what questions should we ask the client on the visit to do the quotation.. 

I must be also making a few mistakes as I have also had a few quotes recently and have not heard back from the clients or have recieved that we have not won te contract.

Is there some form of excel spreadsheet formula that gives the price?

Dapper


Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 01:08:08 pm »
Next time you go and look at a job try asking them what they're paying there current cleaners.

Arthur

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 01:12:31 pm »
yes have done that in the past... they dont always like that!
I also did not think it looked professional?

Dapper

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 01:23:34 pm »
yes have done that in the past... they dont always like that!
I also did not think it looked professional?

Dapper

If they tell you that there paying there current cleaners £10 per hour and there not happy with the standards, it sometimes give you the opportunity to maybe say that they're not paying enough for the right caliber of staff.

So all your trying to do is work out where the problems might be.

So maybe it isn't so unprofessional.

Only my opinion though

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 01:30:53 pm »
yes have done that in the past... they dont always like that!
I also did not think it looked professional?

Dapper

If they tell you that there paying there current cleaners £10 per hour and there not happy with the standards, it sometimes give you the opportunity to maybe say that they're not paying enough for the right caliber of staff.

So all your trying to do is work out where the problems might be.

So maybe it isn't so unprofessional.

Only my opinion though

Yes I understand why you said ask how much they are currently paying.. Like I said some give the answer, some dont.. some wont tell you who they have already.

Anyways I have tried that.. its good advice, just need to know when to ask it i guess.

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 05:10:47 pm »
Dapper?

The answer to your query is long and complicated, but in order to help or hinder depending on your viewpoint:

Cleaning has never and will never be a "sexy" industry.
In my opinion 90% of so called cleaning firms, and these range from those who are self employed lone workers, to a surprising number of bigger firms who actually employ cleaners have little or no idea of the industry at all.

Strong words you might say, but before venting your anger, consider this?

Cleaning, be it, windows, offices, carpets etc is very very easy to get into, lets take cleaning offices.

Equipment
Vacuum cleaner
Cloths
Polish
Various Chemicals
Mop Bucket
Broom
Public Liability Insurance

Some leaflets or an advert in Yellow Pages, and hey presto, your now a contract cleaner!

See how easy it is?

The really depressing thing is that your prospective clients know all the above, and a sad fact is that unless you concentrate on the bigger buildings, your prospective clients knowledge of cleaning is in actual fact about the same as a new starter!

Most people in the industry, have little or no idea of how long a building will take to clean, some ask their prospects how long their current service provider takes to clean the office, others ask what price their present service provider charges and then slightly undercut their current service with heartfelt promises of improved service levels.

Your clients or prospects also have no idea how long the building takes to get clean, why?

Lack of knowledge, plain and simple, same as most contractors.

Pricing and surveying are the 2 most difficult tasks anyone in the industry has to do, there is no defined pricing matrix, the cost to your clients is dependent on the following factors:

1.    Size of premises.
2.    Number of staff.
3.    Type of premises.
4.    Density of premises.
5.    Standard of cleaning required.
6.    Number of cleans required (daily/weekly/monthly etc).
7.    Location.
8.    Local wage rates.
9.    Your overheads.
10.  Actual equipment requirements.

The above is not an exhaustive list!

I hope the above helps, if nothing else I hope that at least it will give you an idea of the true costs of cleaning.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 05:39:24 pm »
Hi Rob,

Yes all agreed. I guess what I was getting at ... I see lots of threads, about pricing and none actually answers it.

Its as though we are all trying to hide a bog secret!

I just add on 30 - 40% of what it costs to have a cleaner and then a bit for materials. theres is a little bit more than that.

I think alot of starting companies.. self employed are trying to find this out... why is that we dont as a forum give people a guide price.

I will say you answer though has been the most informative to help others.


I know what and how to price... (On my quotes) But there is no average that I can see on any thread.

I also agree with entirely about lack of knowledge from some companies but thats why we are here to learn and hopefully teach the new.

Jonny jones

  • Posts: 387
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 07:49:34 pm »
hi pristine,

i think your right about the no straight answer thing in this forum,  i have made several tenders now and havent had any of them,  not sure if its my presentation or its my price

for example,

1 cleaner   10 hrs per week,  @ £6 per hour,  i charge £10 to customer. i included holiday pay which was 5 weeks, and in my price i included the materials,  i quoted £6512 + Vat.

now thats my example please feel free to criticise my quote i am allways open to suggesgions.


Thanx jonny





lmdomestic

  • Posts: 26
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 08:45:38 pm »
hi jonny
i am going to price a job up
how did u get that fig
lynda :)

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2008, 06:57:42 am »
hi pristine,

i think your right about the no straight answer thing in this forum,  i have made several tenders now and havent had any of them,  not sure if its my presentation or its my price

for example,

1 cleaner   10 hrs per week,  @ £6 per hour,  i charge £10 to customer. i included holiday pay which was 5 weeks, and in my price i included the materials,  i quoted £6512 + Vat.

now thats my example please feel free to criticise my quote i am allways open to suggesgions.


Thanx jonny






well Jonny,

This is my opinion only.  Not a critisium. The figure to me was expensive.

By how much. Well it should have been around £5000. + vat Give or take £250.00

Also it depends on the company you have quoted. Sometimes price does not matter... but this is generally not the case.

I see alot of firms do not want to spend hardly anything on cleaning and want great results for littke money.

The reason I beleive this is because they have had cleaners in the past, crap! incl the contractor! Then a good company comes along and says all the things the previous contractor said.

Yes we can get this clean, no dust be soerted in 4 visits with consistancy. Never happened. So the cuastomer is worried. Is the result going to be any better with you? that what they are thinking...

Also why include 5 weeks hol pay? that makes it expemsive as well? Most firms not all. Give the minimum 14 days required by law and that inc bank holidays. in the cleaning industry

How many bin bags do they use a month? white and black... I find most white bags wont need changing, emptying yes. So that saves money for you.

Try lowering your profit, lets face it £10.00 x 40 = £400 pm on average. thats alot of money for a client to find. Plus another & £70 for vat.. yes I know they claim it back but thats 3 months time.

Try £9.00 an hour £360 / 12 £4320 + vat dont forget thats not a 360 day contract. work days are only 260 - bank hols weekends etc.

always look at it from both points, your not actually doing the work I assume? So that not bad. the cleaners doing it, you have not cost now... just a few odd days you may have to cover.

To me the cleaning business is a numbers game the more contracts you have the better... and the less you have to earn on each contract... I am not saying dont make a good profit.. but the cleaning industry some one will always undercut you.

Give a superb service for low cost and you should be onto a winner. And consistancy is most important

dapper

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 07:23:19 am »
Also wanted to say,

I have won alot of contract due to the lack of cleanliness off of the other contractor and I have asked whet they have been charging.

I live in the South East. And I have found that most comapnies are charging £9.00 p/h inc material - ok things like loo roll, paper towels, soap are extra.  But general material like bags, polish all thrown in at that price.

If its about 2 hour a week then its got to be worth while like £35.00 + vat

if its 5 hours a week then £9.50+ vat any where between 7.5 and 10 or more you have to be around £9.00 anything over 12 or more then you can go even lower not much.

this is what I have found the competitors doing.

Presentation helps... I am no great expert on that but happy to swap ideas etc... like use decent paper when writting ya quote... not cheap A4 paper from ya local supermarket. needs to be around 100gsm mark not ya standard 80 gsm. Proper letter head etc.

with ya list of tasks ....


dapper

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 08:19:11 am »
Hi all

Rob has definately given the best advice regarding quoting.  You will not get a straight answer as there is no straight formula, of course there is a basic formula then you tailor it but again this differs per company depending on them and their operating costs.

Jonny, I would say presentation is everything when quoting, I put together comprehensive packs and win two out of three, my pricing is normally in the mid range, I don't think your pricing is too high but I am sure you have room to change those costings, read the client and you will know approx wether they will pay the premium or will only pay for a spit and polish I would charge out an average 10hr per week job, key holding at approx £112 per wk 52 wks of the year, but like I said that can go up or down depending on the client, location, time of day etc.

Pristine, don't know where you got your idea of holiday pay but if that is all you are paying you are operating out side of the law.  The minimum holiday pay is 4.8 weeks pr rata.  It is also mad to supply bags in your costings always price seperately it is the norm.

Fox

Joe H

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 09:10:42 am »
I agree with Fox re holiday pay.

If your staff are only getting 14 days then you may be in for a shock one dy when they become enlightened.

Also mewans you are only building 14 days in your equation so in the real world you not charging enough.

If you are registered as a business I find the Inland Revenue keep you well informed on legislation but joining something like the Federation of Small Business is a good way to keep up with legislation AND have access to a legal help line as well.

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2008, 11:00:14 am »
Holiday pay yes your right sorry, It was just an example of part time. We use a special calc that has a formula to work out the number of hours a part time employee has and is alloed to take off.

So I do not need to worry about the law as its all legit.

As for pricing the bags seperately! Well no you dont have to price them seperately do you? It depends if you want the contract or not.

Yes I agree with the presentation is everything, but that price for the south east area, like Larkfeild, nr Maidstone would be way over the top. This is just what I know from past experience. I certainly would not get the contract based on that price for that amount of hours.

If my hours on a contract are 10 or more I THROW IN FREEBIES. Like a set number of bags say 50 black sacks 100 white.

Maybe I will throw in a 8 week window clean free of charge just to ghet the contract...

I dont think there arte any wrong answers about how you should price or what you have to inc seperately. But that my opinion.

As fpr presentation or ways to do it... if any one has any sugestions I am open for tips or advice or any packs anyone can send me....heres my email address

dave@all-systemsgo.co.uk
- this is not my business address as I dont want lots of spam.

Cheers


Dapper


Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2008, 02:25:42 pm »
for some one that works part time say 7 hours per week their overal hols entitlement would be  hours off per year!

So just to let you all know we do know what we are doing, the entitlement will depend on hours / number of days etc. but does not mean that you have to give more than the minimum requirement by law. Thats down to the individual company


Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2008, 02:27:52 pm »
Let’s take a look at Johnny’s quote in a bit more detail.
After the site survey he decided that 10 hours was sufficient to clean his prospects premises to meet his client’s expectations.
2 hours a day Monday to Friday incl.
He decided to employ 1 cleaner.
His weekly wage bill for this cleaner is £60:00 per week.
The cleaner would be entitled to 24 days paid holiday, at the moment the employer can include Bank Holidays in this calculation, but this is set to change soon.
His Holiday Pay costs would be £288:00 per annum, which translates to an extra £5:54 (rounded up) per week, so his wage bill would increase to £65.54 per week.
Assuming that his employee only has the one job, Johnny would have no further payment to make regarding this member of staff as they would be under the NI threshold.
The above figures do not take into account any amount that he might wish to add to cover sickness etc.
We also now have to add on the cost of compliance with the “Lone Worker” regulations.
The cost of equipment also has to be added at this stage, let’s assume that only the following will be needed to service this contract.
Vacuum
Mop Bucket
Cloths
Triggers
Paper Bags (vacuum)
Mop Heads
Chemicals
The cost for the above equipment and supplies should be around £180:00 per annum (no allowance has been made for maintenance of the vac or PAT testing etc)
This adds an extra £3:46 per week to the contract costs, thus bringing us to a new figure of £69:00.
To this figure, we now have to add the cost of insurance, both Public Liability and Employers Liability, this will vary a lot, as some contractors will try to cut costs, but let’s assume a cost of £1:50 per week per employee, this now gives us a new figure of £70:50 per week.
Please remember, the above figure is just to service this contract!
The following now has to be added:
Advertising         Stationary            Recruitment Costs
Telephone/Postage      Health & Safety         Banking Costs
Accountancy         Employment Law         Legal Costs
Johnny’s Wage      Company Profit         Tax
Payroll Costs         Equipment Maintenance      Transport Costs
The above is again not an exhaustive list!
Now if we use Pristine Cleans method of pricing the contract would be £5000:00 per annum, which equates to £96:15 per week plus VAT.
This would leave a profit of £25:65 per week, before any of the above costs are taken into account.
Johnny would need 18 contracts of this sort of size if he wanted to earn the national average wage of £25,000 per annum.
In order to run a profitable business, Johnny would need more contracts than this, to cover the other costs
Now please don’t get me wrong, the above is possible, but in my opinion it is marginal, more clients, more staff, more stress, and more problems. As for levels of service, again in my opinion, it would be borderline.
However Pristine is quite correct in his opinion, regarding how the industry is perceived by many of its clients, that I am afraid is in large part down to the industry itself, and the constant influx of in-experienced owner operators and lack of knowledge of the clients themselves, who insist on low prices, then complain about poor standards.
The real answer is of course to offer clients real VALUE, like in so many other aspects of life, anything of VALUE has a price attached.
The crucial thing to get right is the survey.
Listen to what your prospect tells you during the survey, listen, don’t talk about how good you think you are, listen to them, get a feeling for what the client wants, not what you think they want.
After listening to them, base your quote on what they want, base you’re cleaning times on what they have told you.
Understand the real costs of business, if you really have no idea, ask your accountant/bank manager, draw up a business plan, and review it monthly.
Learn all you can about cleaning techniques; obtain at least, a fundamental understanding of business principles.
Don’t promise what you can’t deliver EVER!
Finally!
Johnny, I lived in Llandudno many moons ago, very difficult to make a go of it there, get your presentation right, if you like e-mail me a copy of what you sent to your prospect, will give you some feedback on it, no charge honest!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 03:48:00 pm »
that is a fantastic break down Rob! Especially for new people & even for me.

It certainly give me alot to think about.

With regards to employee insurance you can alway get a company to do the amount of hours based on per anum instead of per person... I found it worked out cheaper. Everyone is still covered ... just exceed the number of hours worked to cover yourselves.

According to holiday 10 hour per week entitles him/her to 28 days hols this is on the business link site.  - or 48 hours off work.

Has anyone got any presentation they can show others?


Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2008, 04:11:44 pm »
PAT TESTING

We are lucky in that respect we have our own kit for PAT Testing and are fully qualified City & Guild 2377 to carry that out on all portable appliances and for other companies

But the PAT Test Rob, fantastic, well done for inc that as I am sure alot of us forgot that cost.

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 02:36:41 pm »
Not quite sure what you mean

Quote
With regards to employee insurance you can alway get a company to do the amount of hours based on per anum instead of per person... I found it worked out cheaper. Everyone is still covered ... just exceed the number of hours worked to cover yourselves.

Emplyers Liability/Public Liability insurance is normally calculated using turnover and number of employee's, regardless of their status, ie. full/part time.

If you could explain further it might be useful, many thanks.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Re: Office Cleaning Pricing & Wining Contracts
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 04:55:26 pm »
I am not sure if I can actually explain it further.

There is an insurance company that we use, chandler & Black.

We explained we had a set number of cleaning staff. Example 12. All part time. They then said you could insure then each individually or you can work out the number of working hours, this way everyone is covered and if an employee leaves you can then reduce the hours or simply increase the hours . That the companies working hours for staff. So lets say we have 2 staff working 10 hours each we can ask for 20 hrs cover per week.

Thats how our employers liability is done. Not the public insurance.


Does this help?