Chris R

  • Posts: 813
High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« on: November 03, 2006, 10:13:35 pm »
Hi,

for the last 6 weeks or so I have been experimenting with the cleaning process of using a high PH pre spray, followed by an acidic rinse.

I have not used this method on wool or upholstery.

I have been using Blitz pre spray from Hydramaster ( PH 12.5  :o )
and rinsing with Chemspec Liquid High heat ( PH 4 ).

Its got to be the EASIEST way to clean a carpet that I have EVER used !
( in 20 yrs)

The Blitz pre spray just STRIPS the dirt from the carpet !

Does anyone else clean this way ?

The carpet seems to require less passes of the wand to get it clean, so with the aid of my truckmount and a glided wand I am getting excellent drying times.

What is your opinion of this method of cleaning ?

Does the acidic rinse do enough to combat the high PH of the pre spray ?

I accept that this method is not for the novice cleaner.

regards

Cowboy Chris  ;)

Staffordshire

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2006, 10:39:10 pm »
Hi

It woudn't work for me Chris as all my work is Wool or Upholstery.

Indian Dave Ye ha
NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Eddie Conroy

  • Posts: 108
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2006, 11:19:08 pm »
Chris,
Although I have not used the these products I tend to suspect that on polyprop or nylon carpets you are correct. Presumably you test the effect before carrying out the clean. On wool carpets you would  probably 'loosen'  the dye even if you return it to an acid state.
I would suggest that you carry some PH testing Kit or meter, to ensure that you are returning all carpets to the acid side of neutral
Regards
Eddie

Jeremy

  • Posts: 130
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 05:35:57 am »
Chris.

I use a similar method all the time on wool, however my prespray has a PH of 10.5. I think a PH of 12.5 is a little to agressive for wool.

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 08:27:43 am »
pardon my lack of knowledge but does'nt high Ph strip out the acid dye blockers used in nylon carpet? so it might clean really well this time  but you're making problems for the next time you visit.

I'm assuming you are doing a burn test on every carpet you clean to test for wool content.

Mike
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 09:03:03 am »
I have done this a few times recentlly on a trashed Carpets

And Last week on a trashed suite.

But normally I would not do this.

Steve Carpenter

  • Posts: 28
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 09:51:03 am »
Hi Chris,

With a pH level of 12.5 you’re not that far from cleaning with bleach! This combined with the heat truckmounts are capable of, and you risk a claim on your insurance even after rinsing with a product with a lower pH of 4. Damage can take place almost instantly.

This combination should be left for polypropylene fibres only.

You should only use professionally formulated products that meet the pH criteria for cleaning wool and nylon. Wool rapidly degrades in high alkalinity and nylon should be cleaned as per wool because of its similar dying methods. Nylon also fades and becomes brittle in high alkalinity.

Regards

Steve

Chris R

  • Posts: 813
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2006, 10:03:03 am »
Thanks for the info Steve and Mike

I new that about wool, but thought nylon was pretty bullet proof.

I will save this method for the polyprops then  ;)

OH WELL, back to crappy micro splitters again !

regards

Cowboy Chris
Staffordshire

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2006, 10:14:48 am »
cut & pasted this info on acid dyes;

Acid dyes are negatively charged anionic dyes primarily used on nylon as well as wool and other animal fibers. Seldom used on cotton since this process requires a mordant.

These are also the dyes commonly used to artificially dye drinks, candies, etc., including Kool-Aid®

Acid dye blockers are negatively charged anionic naphthalated phenolic resins that act like colorless dyes and cause nylon fibers to resist most common household food and beverage stains containing acid dyes by occupying remaining dye sites.

Sometimes called stain blockers, acid dye blockers work by blocking the positively charged nylon dye sites, thus preventing (theoretically) staining by acid dyes.

Acid dye resistance is the additional property built into fifth generation nylon fiber.

Note: Nylon stain resist warranties are most often covered under installations in owner-occupied residences.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

more

Acid dyeable nylon is nylon polymer that has been modified chemically to make the fiber receive acid dyes. Acid dyes are negatively charged (anionic). Dye sites are charged areas on a fiber to which oppositely charged dyes are attracted. For example, cationic (positively charged) dye sites on nylon polymer attract acid dyes that are anionic (negatively charged). With today’s modern light colored carpets, very few of the dye sites are occupied by a dye, leaving plenty of dye sites available to react with Kool-Aid® (a registered trademark of Kraft Foods) and other foods and drinks containing acid dyes.

   Acid dye blockers are negatively charged anionic naphthalated phenolic resins that act like colorless dyes and cause nylon fibers to resist most common household food and beverage stains containing acid dyes by occupying remaining dye sites. Sometimes called stain blockers, these work by blocking the positively charged nylon dye sites, thus preventing (theoretically) staining by acid dyes. This is how Stainmaster® works. These are added to the nylon by the fiber producer or by the carpet mill.

   In the real world, with traffic, soiling, and cleaning, stain resistance gradually decreases. As a result, it is best to apply fluorochemical carpet protector on stain-resist nylon carpet after every cleaning.



Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

carpetguy

Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2006, 10:20:54 am »
So there !

Very informative Mike, don't remember Paul Pearce going into so much detail

robbie

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2006, 10:23:55 am »
Could the more technical amongs you explain

The diffrence between using a high ph a pre spray,

and a High ph powder such as Ashbys Supreme followed by an Acid Spray


Although I have not used it for years, I was under the impression you could use this method on wool although it might fail wool safe criteria.


Forums did guide me  other safer products

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2006, 12:58:51 pm »
Hi Guys,

It's worth bearing in mind that pH is a logarithmic scale which basically means that pH 12.5 is 100 times more alkaline than pH 10.5 and 10000 times more than ph 8.5  :o

pH is a measure of hydrogen ion potential so it can be adjusted by using an acid rinse, but this is where it becomes a bit more complicated how much needed will depend on the alkalinity of the prespray, not its pH.

For example a highly buffered pH 10.5 make take more acid tio neutralise than a lightly buffered pH 12.5.

So in conclusion I would be very careful with the high pH products on anything other than PP which is pretty resistant due to its having virtually no reactive sites, its why it makes such a good packaging product along with it close relative polyethylene.

Cheers

Doug

Mark Stanley

  • Posts: 237
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2006, 03:13:04 pm »
Chris.

Phew! there was a lot of info there.

In answer to you question does anyone else....

I (almost) always use the prespray and rinse method of clean  for carpets - using the appropriate spray to match the conditions and rinse, be it water or Fibre & Fabric Rinse ( I know of no other good rinse aid. ) Aided by a good vacuum first and agitation after prespray.

Regards Mark

NCCA

Derek

Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006, 03:31:56 pm »
Any pH over the value of 10 is going to have an affect on protected items apart from any other potential degradation, etc.

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2006, 04:27:55 pm »
I think im right in saying this, im sure someone will comment if im not
But if you are gonna just use this on polyprop, the acid rinse will make little difference as the polyprop is so bulletproof its not affected by the high ph anyway so you dont need to use a acid rinse.

Mark Stanley

  • Posts: 237
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2006, 05:04:57 pm »
Red,

Yes and No. (or sort of )

without a good rinse it will attract the muck quicker - that is the difference - er I think.

Mark
NCCA

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2006, 05:20:29 pm »
polyprop will attract the oily soils anyway, and most other stuff wont stain as it dosent absorb it.

I think ???

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2006, 05:45:26 pm »
High ph such as Bliz should be ok on 5th Generation nylon.
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2006, 05:56:59 pm »
not according to the 'carpet inspector' ;) ;)

www.carpetinspector.com/fifth_generation_nylon_yellow.htm

is'nt this a brilliant site!

mIKE
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2006, 06:06:37 pm »
I would have thought its the 5th generation that would be the problem, the 1st or second i would think you would get away with but i would worry about the protectors (3rd or 4th) generation and the acid dye blockers (5th generation)

And anyway, how do you now what generation it is ???

Better to play it safe, at i would say about 10ph on everything. I think thats a good balance.

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2006, 06:56:10 pm »
Think the yanks use stronger chems than us.
I have never experienced such yellowing and have used blitz on nylon inc 5th many times and on repeat cleans with no problems.
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2006, 07:03:48 pm »
Yanks use stronger chems, because only 1% of there carpets are wool.
whereas over here we love wool, so they have a lot more room to play with, woolsafe dosent even come into it over there.

How do you tell if its 5th ???

And im not saying i havent used high ph on wool and nylon iv gone up to 12+ on both, sometimes you have to.

Steve Carpenter

  • Posts: 28
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2006, 11:09:53 am »
Guy’s,

By using products that aren’t suitable for use on wool and nylon etc, you are playing Russian roulette with your reputation and customer’s property.

Not only that if you cause damage and it can be proven that it was as a result of using inappropriate products, then your insurance company would drop you like a hot potato!

Also, Dupont Stainmaster carpets must be one of the easiest carpets out there to clean, regardless of soil levels.

Regards

Steve

Derek

Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2006, 01:46:11 pm »
I endorse young Steven's comments of Stainmaster carpets which are 5th Generation... they can be cleaned well and safely with the Woolsafe pH range of chemical products.

....don't forget that 4th Generation are the fluorochemically protected fibres that also don't like high pH chemicals.

rice

  • Posts: 73
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2006, 07:16:59 pm »
CHRIS, I carry two sprayers with onestep which I find the best.One is dilluted 1-40 the the other at 1-10
I also carry a spotter bottle at 1-5.The 1-10 will cut through the crap with ease, then spray the remainder
with the weaker dillution or try a mist of cfr pop out,this is a fantastic spotter but I use it as a misted prespray on grease and other crappy areas.get it from amtech uk,try it, you`ll be plesantly suprised.

regards rice

robert stubbs

  • Posts: 266
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2007, 08:23:33 pm »
Hi, PH.

will01

  • Posts: 256
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2007, 09:02:48 pm »
Hi all:

I mostly use fabric and fibre rinse in the tank but if I run out I use white vinegar bought from the local spar for 50p!!.

Has anyone tried this and and do they find it comparable with f and f rinse?

Will

 

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2007, 02:46:07 am »

Will

Has it got malt in WV that is?

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

will01

  • Posts: 256
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2007, 02:40:53 pm »
Len:

Sorry don't fully understand how you put your question.
If you are asking me if there is malt in wv then to the best of my knowledge no there isn't. Malt vinegar I'm led to believe is brown. Nice on Chips tho with some salt and Chilli sauce. :D

Will

scott.

  • Posts: 482
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 05:04:01 pm »
The carpet must smell nice after...

will01

  • Posts: 256
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 05:33:58 pm »
Must admit I was a bit worried about the smell but actually on the few occasions I've used wv the only smell was deodoriser. Put it this way no one has phoned me back stating that there was a queue outside their house asking for double cod and chips!! Infact if I can recall these are regular customers.

All the best

Will

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2007, 10:29:02 am »
Iv just done a couple of tests using Blitz

Iv sprayed it down on 4 carpet samples and on a small area of my own carpet, and not even rinsed it just left it to dry :o

So 5 carpets in total 3=80/20 wool and 2=100% wool

And 24hours later no negative affects ??? no colour change no degradation nothing, they all look absolutley fine.

So surely there cant be that much risk involved with cleaning wool with it especially when its coupled with extraction and a acid rinse can it?

Or can it?

rich hand

  • Posts: 302
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2008, 10:04:13 pm »
Id like to bring this topic back alive.

Ive just tried similar to Red and tested MS heavy duty ph 11.7 on several wool carpets and no problems atall.

markpowell

  • Posts: 2279
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2008, 10:21:30 pm »
The problems that this aggressive cleaning causes is not always noticable at the time of the clean.
Mark

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2008, 07:37:54 pm »
Rich

Who says there's no problems, and how did they arrive at that conclusion?

High pH and high alkaline cleaning solutions should only normally be used on wool as problem solvers. I, and others, have often highlighted the main issues with this type of cleaning practice.

Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

colin thomas

  • Posts: 813
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2008, 08:16:57 pm »
i often use blitz and rinse with liquid high heat, get real, if a carpet is minging the customer is not going to worry what is used on their carpet as long as you get it clean. how many of you have cleaned wool restaurant carpets year after year with high ph products, are they falling to bits after 2 cleans? i don't think so. of course i don't go in so heavy handed for most domestics, pure clean is the dogs doo dahs

colin
colin thomas

markpowell

  • Posts: 2279
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2008, 08:37:29 pm »
Colin,
How many wool carpets do you clean in houses, with black top i know i have never seen one in 8 years ??? ???
We should always use the safest product designed for each job, you should very rarely need something of PH 12.5 on a domestic wool carpet where as on a pub you would, common sence me thinks on this one.
Mark

Rob Kennedy

  • Posts: 8
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2008, 09:49:29 pm »
This is what Chemspec has to say about acid rinse

rich hand

  • Posts: 302
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2008, 03:36:49 pm »
Ken

I was just looking at the immediate results. Could you point me to the links or other for longer term problems.

Thanks
Rich

Rich

Who says there's no problems, and how did they arrive at that conclusion?

High pH and high alkaline cleaning solutions should only normally be used on wool as problem solvers. I, and others, have often highlighted the main issues with this type of cleaning practice.

Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken

Mr Dvae

  • Posts: 442
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2008, 04:56:02 pm »
 :lets face it guys, if you're havng to use high ph chemicals to clean a carpet its already shot and whatever damage high ph may do is gonna be pretty irrelevant by this time, the custy just wants the carpet to look better, and it will.

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2008, 08:26:00 pm »
Dave

Your spot on with your comment that if you're using these high pH solutions, then the carpet is shot. That's why I support the Woolsafe position that these solutions are used as a last resort problem solver. However, over the years, I've cleaned some really minging wool carpets with Woolsafe Approved solutions and achieved complete satisfaction for all parties. It does take more time though.

The biggest problem that I see, however, is that inexperienced technicians will see or hear of these high risk procedures, whether via word to mouth or reading on internet forums, and start using them on day to day carpet cleaning.

Which now leads me on to Rich's request. You may find some information on Woolsafe . Org, but without doing searches for myself, I can't point you in any specific direction. So I'll try to address some points myself.

Wool likes to be kept at a pH of between pH5.5 to 8. During scouring, most of the lanolin is stripped from the wool, but a little remains. This helps to keep the wool soft and suppleish. High pH and alkalinity will strip this last bit of lanolin. The carpet may look the same, but the fibres become brittle, feel harsher, break more easily and disappear up the customers vacuum, so by wearing out quicker. For some reason, white yarns seem to be more affected by this than some other colours, especially in direct sunlight (sometimes also if never been cleaned).

Alkaline residues can dull the appearance of a fibre, not just wool. When the carpet is wet, it will look fine and feel soft, but not so good when it has dried. An acidic rinse will certainly lessen this effect.

Wool dyes can have a pH as low as pH2. High pH may leave the fibre at, say,  pH3 after the first clean, pH4 after the second and so on. The point at which a dye will bleed varies, but as you can see, it could happen at some time :-[

High alkaline residues present a greater risk to people and animals who come into contact with them.

There are bound to be other items I could have added, but the above gives you a good place to start.

By the way, THE best training course I have ever attended was the Woolsafe Course by Julie Roberts of Chemspec Europe.  If I were to be King for a day, I would make this course compulsory for all carpet cleaners ;)

Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2008, 08:43:45 pm »
Julie has come a long way over the past few years, even Ken listens to her now :D
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

rich hand

  • Posts: 302
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2008, 01:15:09 pm »
Thanks Ken, very helpful

edward coller

  • Posts: 393
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2008, 01:45:50 pm »
Ive been using blitz /truckmount for last 18 months on Brintons/axminster/wiltons/adams etc and also needlecord in tatty flat lets and its great cleans well you can vary strength by mix and imo knocks spots off any other product and not had one hint of a problem  except dealing with the demand from delighted customers  go on be a devil and try it!!!!!! Simon

markpowell

  • Posts: 2279
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2008, 02:19:10 pm »
Simon,
Have you done a training course?
I will guarantee you that one day you will end up having a problem on your hands!
Do you ever get any complaints regarding rapid re-soiling?
Do you use blitz on upholstery all the time as well? ???
Mark