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WILLIS

Work at height: Confronting competency
« on: February 22, 2010, 02:59:40 pm »
The recent topic and thread concerning flat roof safety and ladder work has generated a lot of interest from a wide range of window cleaners. All comments I read with interest. It has shown me just how urgent we need to clarify what the law actually says. This I plan to try and do at the Windex semminar

In the meantime!

I want to start with defining competency

To start with the Regulation 5 of the Work at Height Regulations (WAHR) 2005 (statutory law which means you must comply with) states: “Every employer shall ensure that no person engages in any activity, including organisation, planning and supervision, in relation to work at height, or work equipment for use in such work, unless he is competent to do so or, if being trained, is being supervised by a competent person.”

Peter Bennett has recently supplied an excellent article online which spells out competency and is worth reading Peter is managing director of PASMA.

To see the full article on www.cleaning43.com or

SHP online http://www.shponline.co.uk/article.asp?pagename=features&article_id=9782

Peter outlines ............Confusingly, there are various definitions of competence. Capability, ability, skill, fitness, aptitude, proficiency, and know-how: all of these descriptions fit most people’s understanding of the term in a work environment. In the context of this article, training could be best defined as the process of bringing a person to an agreed standard of competence by instruction and practice.

It would be reasonable to assume that competence and, by extension, the training to achieve competence, particularly in the field of working at height, would be universally acceptable and welcomed in the workplace, but, in reality, it depends on to whom you are speaking. 

There is a suspicion among some sections of the workforce that this enthusiastic drive for competence is, at best, a posterior-covering exercise on the part of management, or, at worst, an effort to deflect responsibility, allowing blame to be attributed to the lowest echelon of the organisation.

In truth, it matters little what motivates organisations to aspire to achieve competence in their workforce, at any level, because the very existence of competence is empowering, if it is used and harnessed correctly. We may not always be in a position to significantly alter behaviour but, at the very least, we can be confident that a competent and therefore empowered workforce is, at least in theory, making an informed choice to make the right – or indeed, wrong – decision, with the benefit of knowledge of best practice.

And it is the last paragraph I strongly believe in

There are also two legal case law which defines competency 

Case Law Brazier v Skipton Rock Co. Ltd Co. Ltd (1962)
Meaning of the word “competent” Considered by Mr Justice Winn.
Academic training and qualifications were not the only criteria in assessing competence, since experience may be an equally valid factor

Case Law Gibbs v Skibs A/S Marin (1966)
Justice Cantley considered the meaning of the expression “competent person” under the Docks Regulations 1934 “I think that a competent person………is a Person whom is a practical and reasonable person who knows what to look for and knows how to recognise it when they see it.”

Competency therefore = Qualification, experience and knowledge     

It would then seem reasonable to apply the statutory law in Regulation 5 of the working at height regulations and the two case law and that to be deemed competent is to have both practical experience and qualification



sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 03:17:13 pm »
Does that mean there's now going to be an NVQ in ladder climbing!!!

I wish we had competent government officials concocting all this new legislation.

This country has gone barking mad.

Woof,
Lance
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

ftp

  • Posts: 4694
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 03:26:46 pm »
The recent topic and thread concerning flat roof safety and ladder work has generated a lot of interest from a wide range of window cleaners. All comments I read with interest. It has shown me just how urgent we need to clarify what the law actually says. This I plan to try and do at the Windex semminar

In the meantime!

I want to start with defining competency

To start with the Regulation 5 of the Work at Height Regulations (WAHR) 2005 (statutory law which means you must comply with) states: “Every employer shall ensure that no person engages in any activity, including organisation, planning and supervision, in relation to work at height, or work equipment for use in such work, unless he is competent to do so or, if being trained, is being supervised by a competent person.”

Peter Bennett has recently supplied an excellent article online which spells out competency and is worth reading Peter is managing director of PASMA.

To see the full article on www.cleaning43.com or

SHP online http://www.shponline.co.uk/article.asp?pagename=features&article_id=9782

Peter outlines ............Confusingly, there are various definitions of competence. Capability, ability, skill, fitness, aptitude, proficiency, and know-how: all of these descriptions fit most people’s understanding of the term in a work environment. In the context of this article, training could be best defined as the process of bringing a person to an agreed standard of competence by instruction and practice.

It would be reasonable to assume that competence and, by extension, the training to achieve competence, particularly in the field of working at height, would be universally acceptable and welcomed in the workplace, but, in reality, it depends on to whom you are speaking. 

There is a suspicion among some sections of the workforce that this enthusiastic drive for competence is, at best, a posterior-covering exercise on the part of management, or, at worst, an effort to deflect responsibility, allowing blame to be attributed to the lowest echelon of the organisation.

In truth, it matters little what motivates organisations to aspire to achieve competence in their workforce, at any level, because the very existence of competence is empowering, if it is used and harnessed correctly. We may not always be in a position to significantly alter behaviour but, at the very least, we can be confident that a competent and therefore empowered workforce is, at least in theory, making an informed choice to make the right – or indeed, wrong – decision, with the benefit of knowledge of best practice.

And it is the last paragraph I strongly believe in

There are also two legal case law which defines competency 

Case Law Brazier v Skipton Rock Co. Ltd Co. Ltd (1962)
Meaning of the word “competent” Considered by Mr Justice Winn.
Academic training and qualifications were not the only criteria in assessing competence, since experience may be an equally valid factor

Case Law Gibbs v Skibs A/S Marin (1966)
Justice Cantley considered the meaning of the expression “competent person” under the Docks Regulations 1934 “I think that a competent person………is a Person whom is a practical and reasonable person who knows what to look for and knows how to recognise it when they see it.”

Competency therefore = Qualification, experience and knowledge     

It would then seem reasonable to apply the statutory law in Regulation 5 of the working at height regulations and the two case law and that to be deemed competent is to have both practical experience and qualification




Jesus! Willis put it in plain english
Can't you understand why all this gobbdygook is such crap for any normal person? If you talk like you write I'd be asleep within two minutes at one of your seminars!

dd

  • Posts: 2623
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 03:31:59 pm »
Difficulty bit is you could be trained but not experienced therefore not "Competent".

To gain experience you would have to spend some time using ladders without being "Competent".


dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 06:18:18 pm »
Good post Willis, and thanks for trying to enlighten us.
The problem for many of us is that we are not lawyers, and of course laws are written in legal terminology, I guess your challenge is trying to explain them in layman's terms.
These regulations have to be presented in a way that any potential employer would understand.
The hard fact is mate, that there are loads of youngsters on the dole, and loads of window cleaners too scared to employ them.
The word practicable is enough to frighten many of us, because that word alone is a subject for legal discussion.
There are many of us who would employ, but it just seems too much hassle

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 06:23:29 pm »
So Willis,

Given your comments if i asked you to recomend just one good ladder safety device, which would it be and why?
(two storey and gutters)

WILLIS

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 06:39:47 pm »
The recent topic and thread concerning flat roof safety and ladder work has generated a lot of interest from a wide range of window cleaners. All comments I read with interest. It has shown me just how urgent we need to clarify what the law actually says. This I plan to try and do at the Windex semminar

In the meantime!

I want to start with defining competency

To start with the Regulation 5 of the Work at Height Regulations (WAHR) 2005 (statutory law which means you must comply with) states: “Every employer shall ensure that no person engages in any activity, including organisation, planning and supervision, in relation to work at height, or work equipment for use in such work, unless he is competent to do so or, if being trained, is being supervised by a competent person.”

Peter Bennett has recently supplied an excellent article online which spells out competency and is worth reading Peter is managing director of PASMA.

To see the full article on www.cleaning43.com or

SHP online http://www.shponline.co.uk/article.asp?pagename=features&article_id=9782

Peter outlines ............Confusingly, there are various definitions of competence. Capability, ability, skill, fitness, aptitude, proficiency, and know-how: all of these descriptions fit most people’s understanding of the term in a work environment. In the context of this article, training could be best defined as the process of bringing a person to an agreed standard of competence by instruction and practice.

It would be reasonable to assume that competence and, by extension, the training to achieve competence, particularly in the field of working at height, would be universally acceptable and welcomed in the workplace, but, in reality, it depends on to whom you are speaking. 

There is a suspicion among some sections of the workforce that this enthusiastic drive for competence is, at best, a posterior-covering exercise on the part of management, or, at worst, an effort to deflect responsibility, allowing blame to be attributed to the lowest echelon of the organisation.

In truth, it matters little what motivates organisations to aspire to achieve competence in their workforce, at any level, because the very existence of competence is empowering, if it is used and harnessed correctly. We may not always be in a position to significantly alter behaviour but, at the very least, we can be confident that a competent and therefore empowered workforce is, at least in theory, making an informed choice to make the right – or indeed, wrong – decision, with the benefit of knowledge of best practice.

And it is the last paragraph I strongly believe in

There are also two legal case law which defines competency 

Case Law Brazier v Skipton Rock Co. Ltd Co. Ltd (1962)
Meaning of the word “competent” Considered by Mr Justice Winn.
Academic training and qualifications were not the only criteria in assessing competence, since experience may be an equally valid factor

Case Law Gibbs v Skibs A/S Marin (1966)
Justice Cantley considered the meaning of the expression “competent person” under the Docks Regulations 1934 “I think that a competent person………is a Person whom is a practical and reasonable person who knows what to look for and knows how to recognise it when they see it.”

Competency therefore = Qualification, experience and knowledge     

It would then seem reasonable to apply the statutory law in Regulation 5 of the working at height regulations and the two case law and that to be deemed competent is to have both practical experience and qualification




Jesus! Willis put it in plain english for * sake!
Can't you understand why all this gobbdygook is such crap for any normal person? If you talk like you write I'd be asleep within two minutes at one of your seminars!

Good point hard to please all as when I spell it out simply, users read into what they want so just for you 

competent is to have both practical experience and qualification

WILLIS

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 06:41:11 pm »
So Willis,

Given your comments if i asked you to recomend just one good ladder safety device, which would it be and why?
(two storey and gutters)

Not to use a ladder

WILLIS

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 06:47:42 pm »
Good post Willis, and thanks for trying to enlighten us.
The problem for many of us is that we are not lawyers, and of course laws are written in legal terminology, I guess your challenge is trying to explain them in layman's terms.
These regulations have to be presented in a way that any potential employer would understand.
The hard fact is mate, that there are loads of youngsters on the dole, and loads of window cleaners too scared to employ them.
The word practicable is enough to frighten many of us, because that word alone is a subject for legal discussion.
There are many of us who would employ, but it just seems too much hassle

I agree

The problem is that we have a lot of legislation that at times is daunting to comply with

I hope the FWC and other areas I am involved with we can have some input into making it clearer and easy to comply with   

Hope you can make the seminars at Windex
 

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 06:51:34 pm »
I have some trade ladders three sections 2.4 closed so that they fit inside the roof of my scudo maxi, a stand off, and ladder limpets.

I'm wfp, but case law from 1934 notwithstanding i do have to use ladders at times to do my job.

I don't think your seminar has much for me.



WILLIS

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 06:59:11 pm »
I have some trade ladders three sections 2.4 closed so that they fit inside the roof of my scudo maxi, a stand off, and ladder limpets.

I'm wfp, but case law from 1934 notwithstanding i do have to use ladders at times to do my job.

I don't think your seminar has much for me.




Then what was the point of asking about LSD for 2nd floor gutter cleaning 

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 07:04:59 pm »
To find out what the advice was.

trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 07:10:48 pm »
hi andy
 i am definately looking forward to speaking to you, i agree some sort of initial training is needed for ladder use but a training course is not the answer as i can easily demonstrate to you at the windex show.
  you also replied to one question about what ladder device to use on a 2 story building for gutter clean your response was dont use a ladder,without knowing further facts about the job your answer could be tottally wrong for instance what are the ground conditions of the job what is access like to get equipment to area needing cleaning, what time duration will the task take if you weigh up all these questions then often a ladder may be the best tool for the job, this is the attitude i am faced with every week when some know it all safety officer rules out certain equipment without using common sense and looking at the true risks of each method.
  you also talk about competancy how many H and S officers are competant in ladder use as most have no experience but they still come up with stupid advice, you need to read the loughborough university comic on ladder use and how to foot a ladder to give you an idea of what i am on about, then you have the 3 points of contact rule have you ever tried changing lightbulbs using just one hand again it was a rule made without looking at real life situations.
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 07:22:32 pm »
It may seem i was looking for a row, but i was only asking.If there is no practical advice what use is any of this.

james44

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 07:28:44 pm »
Quote
If you talk like you write I'd be asleep within two minutes at one of your seminars!
;D

ftp

  • Posts: 4694
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 08:01:14 pm »
Willis, why oh why do you have to produce such waffle? Is this how the NVQ is produced also?
That's pretty much how an NVQ was based in the print industry. 10% substance wrapped up in 80% waffle. A massive file of waste paper full of ridiculous words and long winded phrases. Why can't you just call a spade a spade?
I'm betting a window cleaning NVQ could be wrapped up in two hours in plain english
Madness  ::)

old timer

  • Posts: 28
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 08:21:35 pm »
hi andy
 i am definately looking forward to speaking to you, i agree some sort of initial training is needed for ladder use but a training course is not the answer as i can easily demonstrate to you at the windex show.
  you also replied to one question about what ladder device to use on a 2 story building for gutter clean your response was dont use a ladder,without knowing further facts about the job your answer could be tottally wrong for instance what are the ground conditions of the job what is access like to get equipment to area needing cleaning, what time duration will the task take if you weigh up all these questions then often a ladder may be the best tool for the job, this is the attitude i am faced with every week when some know it all safety officer rules out certain equipment without using common sense and looking at the true risks of each method.
  you also talk about competancy how many H and S officers are competant in ladder use as most have no experience but they still come up with stupid advice, you need to read the loughborough university comic on ladder use and how to foot a ladder to give you an idea of what i am on about, then you have the 3 points of contact rule have you ever tried changing lightbulbs using just one hand again it was a rule made without looking at real life situations.
I think you have some interesting points and also valid, I would also presume this willis bloke was just humouring the question. He would have to spend god knows how much time just finding the ins and outs of the works setup before being able to give realistic advice and why would he want to do that.

Also what he was saying is probably correct as the working at height regs state avoid working at height if you don't need too, the gutter vac or similar are more than visible in this case

Although I think alot of H&S is abit too much too chew sometimes the advice he does supply is quite direct and user friendly unless you are a numpty... although my advice would be don't waste your time with most of the cowboys on here who just want an argument
I say it as I see it

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 08:27:23 pm »


Also what he was saying is probably correct as the working at height regs state avoid working at height if you don't need too, the gutter vac or similar are more than visible in this case


The Working at Height regs say if there is an alternative method which is safer then not to use ladders.

If you havent got a gutter-vac sometimes a ladder is the safest method.

old timer

  • Posts: 28
Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 08:36:51 pm »


Also what he was saying is probably correct as the working at height regs state avoid working at height if you don't need too, the gutter vac or similar are more than visible in this case


The Working at Height regs say if there is an alternative method which is safer then not to use ladders.

If you havent got a gutter-vac sometimes a ladder is the safest method.
Maybe sometimes you could justify it although the regs do also say

ensure that no work is done at height if it is safe and reasonably practicable to
do it other than at height;

Reasonably practicable = cost, time, effort, inconvenience vs risk

can you tell me you can justify not using a gutter vac or similar, price of you buying one to the price of your or an employees life?

I know what is worth more to me
I say it as I see it

Re: Work at height: Confronting competency
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 08:41:09 pm »


Also what he was saying is probably correct as the working at height regs state avoid working at height if you don't need too, the gutter vac or similar are more than visible in this case


The Working at Height regs say if there is an alternative method which is safer then not to use ladders.

If you havent got a gutter-vac sometimes a ladder is the safest method.

I don't think it means if YOU have the equipment rather that the equipment is availiable.