[trevor perry]

i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe

falls from ladders    =  5 deaths
falls involving a bed  = 5 deaths   you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs   = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps  = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice  = 2 deaths

 

[trevor perry]

i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe

falls from ladders    =  5 deaths
falls involving a bed  = 5 deaths   you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs   = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps  = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice  = 2 deaths

 

The problem is, of course, how many people are up a ladder daily versus being in bed or sitting on a chair?  Another is how many able bodied people are killed falling out of or off a bed/chair versus a ladder?  Most of those falls are coffin-dodgers, so you're not comparing like with like.

I do agree that it gives a new perspective.

PW

 i do agree with you there is no way going to bed is as dangerous as climbing a ladder but my point was we are often told how dangerous ladders or other activities are by health and safety qouting number of accidents yet if you look at the mortality rates there are far more serious things they should be clamping down on than ladder use.

[Ian Lancaster]

This is a good example of how statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.

On the 'flat roof' thread, I've tried to point out that for the figures to mean anything it would be necessary to qualify them to show whether the accidents were in the regulated (by H&S i.e. registered traders, firms, etc) or the unregulated (unregistered/part time/amateur cleaners)  If they fall in the latter then no amount of additional regulations will ever change things - the target sector will never even know the regulations exist, yet will still appear as accident statistics and be used as 'evidence' by the regulators to justify their demands for ever more pointless and unnecessary control.

[wizard]

Death is a good salesman .Second best is fear. This H S thing is driven by Insurance companies to sell more policies to us suckers. In many other countries they  do not have all this H & S and no more people die due to ladders. There will always be accidents and you can do what you like to reduce it. There will always be bad luck  and negligent users.Why if more people fall down stairs do we not regulate that by law. Answer no money for insurance companies.

[Moderator David@stives]

The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.

[JamesTurnbull]

The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.

1000% correct!, why risk your life on a ladder to clean a window. when there such other safer ways to do so.

[trevor perry]

The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.

1000% correct!, why risk your life on a ladder to clean a window. when there such other safer ways to do so.

i would agree with this in majority of cases but what if there are other methods but these dont produce satisfactory results an example of this is high internal windows or staircase windows done only once a year, we invested in the ionics internal pole for this and the 40ft pole alone cost £2000 the results where terrible we have also tried the vikan easyshine on a long pole again the results where not good and even if the results had been ok the sills wouldnt have been clean and these can be seen from the galleries in many modern buildings, other options are scaffolding and the risks involved in erecting and dismantling these are higher than the use off ladders, then there is the option of a MEWP apart from the cost involved to clean just a few windows there is also the floor surface tolerance to take into consideration as these machines can be very heavy and access can also be a problem, now from the above you would agree that a ladder secured would be the best solution but in my experience a lot of safety officers think otherwise.
  other areas that need addressing are work on balconies and work on glass canopies as the H and s on these issues are ridiculous.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

1st of all death is not the only consideration, anyone off work for 3 months with a break could find themselves in financial difficulty.

And while death is a good sales man, burying your head in the sand does not help you to see anything clearly.

It is understandable that companies who have gone to the expense of working as safe as practicable are more keen on these threads than those who still use ladders and don't want to spend any extra money.

[rg1]

i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe

falls from ladders    =  5 deaths
falls involving a bed  = 5 deaths   you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs   = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps  = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice  = 2 deaths

 

Over what period of time do these statistics relate to?

[idealrob]

 that a ladder secured would be the best solution

Sometimes true, and i agree a ladder sometimes might be the best way, but how many times after the trad moan about wfp and the price and there so called stupid hse rules, they wont even spend £30 to secure a ladder or buy a new one, which has securing device built in,so let them continually break the law and i hope it hurts when they fall. lol

idealrob

[WILLIS]

Falls from ladders resulted in 16 deaths and 1146 major injuries, amounting to over a quarter of all major injuries as a result of a fall from height

Its the 1146 figure that is a concern

Trevor, not sure where you got the stats from, try the HSE web site     

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/statistics.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm

 

[bobby p]

that a ladder secured would be the best solution

Sometimes true, and i agree a ladder sometimes might be the best way, but how many times after the trad moan about wfp and the price and there so called stupid hse rules, they wont even spend £30 to secure a ladder or buy a new one, which has securing device built in,so let them continually break the law and i hope it hurts when they fall. lol

idealrob

what is a ladder securing device ?  where can i buy such ?

[Moderator David@stives]

sod the 1146 what about all them poor sods who just break a shoulder.

Falling hurts !!!!

[dai]

For someone to lose his life falling from height is tragic.
We can all See the benefits of adequate training, and protecting employees from pressure put on them by some unscrupulous employers.
We seem to have endless legislation for health and safety at work.

The question that many of us are asking, is this legislation driven by lobbying from insurance companies? Or a genuine concern for our well being?
If it is the former, which many of us suspect it is, how far will they go to eliminate every conceivable risk?
If there is a genuinely concern about safety, how come we don't see any health and safety inspectors in Snowdonia where on average 10 people get themselves killed every year?
There is a general belief creeping in, that insurance companies have hijacked the health and safety band wagon, and will go to any length to avoid paying out on a claim, regardless of the cost and inconvenience to employers.

[idealrob]

that a ladder secured would be the best solution

idealrob

what is a ladder securing device ?  where can i buy such ?

HSE have not clarrified what securing a ladder is, but its 19 years since we used ladder but i still have what we use then and they are great, for the bottom we used a Rojac stopper about £30 and we also at that time a ladder limpit which fastened to the top and made me feel 100% safe.


idealrob

[wizard]

Tosh  Try South Africa. no H& S at all you take reasonability yourself and don’t think you can sue. You will need the cash up front to go to court. Please don’t say 3 world because it more modern that living in the U Kiwi are very protected here. The person making the wrong move will never be responsible here.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

South Africa:

http://www.mangaung.co.za/Legal-Services/Documents/Occupational%20Health%20&%20Safety%20Act.pdf

http://www.lexadin.nl/wlg/legis/nofr/oeur/lxwezaf.htm

[trevor perry]

Falls from ladders resulted in 16 deaths and 1146 major injuries, amounting to over a quarter of all major injuries as a result of a fall from height

Its the 1146 figure that is a concern

Trevor, not sure where you got the stats from, try the HSE web site     

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/statistics.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm

 

i got the statistics from nationmaster.com  under the british mortality statistics,  the links you put up say 16 deaths and 11 deaths from scaffolding where as nationmaster.com statistics say 5 deaths from ladders a 3 from scaffolding so i dont know whos figures are correct but it is an interesting fact that on a lot of jobs i have done the health and safety officer has recomended we use a scaffold instead of ladders for some internal work and yet there has been nearly as many deaths from scaffolding as there has from ladders but scaffolding is used by much fewer people, i know for a fact that the risks of errecting working from and then dismantling a scaffold creates far more risk than using a ladder for the work we are talking about here and i can show this from any risk assessment yet H and S prefer the use of scaffolding, as already been stated most H and S officers like to qoute statistics but when it comes to common sense and reasoning on best tool for the job the majority havnt got a clue and will advise using a method that creates more risk.
 

[trevor perry]

i feel my above post is a bit unfair on H and S officers as they have to deal with many issues and not just work at height so they cant be experts on every matter but i feel they should take into consideration the experience of contractor carrying out the job and not just what it says in the little rule books.

[wizard]

Sunshine that page is advert none of those cases can open on that page. Why are you persisting to knock all my posts. In future I will just ignore your post. I feel you have a axe to grind so have fun.