[Glyn H]

Why shop for vegatables, they could grow there own.

But they are lazy and thats why we work.

Bet your customers would be happy to know you think they are lazy!

The majority have better things to do with their time,and are happy to pay others for a chore.

[Alex Gardiner]

Diesel is not smelly at all i to thought it would be but mine runs off of the vehicle tank with an exhaust that goes through the floor so theres no smell.

A good diesel system like yours is not smelly but I have smelt those that are! And anyway it sounded better putting 'smelly' in.

[matt]

is that your office jeff?

i allways wonder why people take pics of desks with the pc and a roll of bog paper on the desk 

[jefftemperley]

yes its my office/shed/utility/haven from kids and missus, just finished building it cant be bothered to plaster it but its sheer luxury compared to scrabbling on my hands and knees to scan documents behind the sofa!

[The Seven Bays Window Cleaning Company]

I went down the gas route for my hot water.

I'm now back just using pure cold water. Why, because it still leaves the same result as cold, its a lot cheaper, and the carrying/using gas made me nervous, and I couldn't be doing the extra complications caused by using hot water.

Is hot water easier for cleaning? Yes, without doubt Easier, but only slightly more quicker.

Is worth the weekly cost in gas? unless your doing a lot of REALLY dirty 1st cleans, or encountering lots a hard baked bird poo - then no, I don't.

Cold pure water works just fine for 95% of jobs.

I'm glad I tried it, but I won't be going back to it unless the running costs are reduced, and I wouldn't choose gas next time.

There just my thoughts anyway

[David Slater]

Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.

In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is  smelly, noisy and expensive.

You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.

Even electricity has its own unique problems - electric shock and electrocution!. My point was - if you're not controlling the hazards associated with your system (be that the poles, heating system, ergonomics etc etc) then it doesnt really matter whether you're buying a system or creating your own. Too many guys seem to have the idea that 'buying' something has somehow relieved them of any responsibility.

We both know it hasnt.

You could get even more sophisticated and link it up to Economy 7...which is even cheaper than your standard supply -  www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/ It would need good insulation to work effectively.

I liked the idea of those 'heat transfer' units (cant remember the proper name!). That seemed a really good option but required you to run the van for a fair amount of time to get a full tank of hot water and there were other drawbacks if I remember correctly.

As for gas making you nervous: Its a fair comment, if thats what you feel, dont use it.

Petrol stations have more 'issues' than I will ever have using an approved gas bottle -
1. Petrol is explosive
2.It has a very low flash point
3.It is carcinogenic
4. It is an irritant on skin
5. In a liquid state you could be splashed with it and be engulfed in fire
6. Filing mechanisms are not enclosed (you can watch the vapour leaving your tank while re-fuelling)
7 NO special training or instruction is provided to the user to ensure 'safe operation' of the equipment
etc etc etc....

Yet millions of people use this highly flammable and explosive substance safely every day without any prior training or instruction?

I'm not for one moment saying my system is "the best" - I am however saying I have looked at the potential problems and feel I have come up with a reliable and safe way of using this fuel.....My "safety systems" far outweigh anything provided to a 16 year old filling up his moped at a petrol forecourt for the first time!!

Glyn H -

"Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed  why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!"

But Inocs already sell a 'home' version of their kits?....If I was a home owner looking for a kit to clean my windows, then I probably would be very interested in the DIY set up you mentioned 

[macmac]

Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.

In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is  smelly, noisy and expensive.

You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.

Even electricity has its own unique problems - electric shock and electrocution!. My point was - if you're not controlling the hazards associated with your system (be that the poles, heating system, ergonomics etc etc) then it doesnt really matter whether you're buying a system or creating your own. Too many guys seem to have the idea that 'buying' something has somehow relieved them of any responsibility.

We both know it hasnt.

You could get even more sophisticated and link it up to Economy 7...which is even cheaper than your standard supply -  www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/ It would need good insulation to work effectively.

I liked the idea of those 'heat transfer' units (cant remember the proper name!). That seemed a really good option but required you to run the van for a fair amount of time to get a full tank of hot water and there were other drawbacks if I remember correctly.

As for gas making you nervous: Its a fair comment, if thats what you feel, dont use it.

Petrol stations have more 'issues' than I will ever have using an approved gas bottle -
1. Petrol is explosive
2.It has a very low flash point
3.It is carcinogenic
4. It is an irritant on skin
5. In a liquid state you could be splashed with it and be engulfed in fire
6. Filing mechanisms are not enclosed (you can watch the vapour leaving your tank while re-fuelling)
7 NO special training or instruction is provided to the user to ensure 'safe operation' of the equipment
etc etc etc....

Yet millions of people use this highly flammable and explosive substance safely every day without any prior training or instruction?

I'm not for one moment saying my system is "the best" - I am however saying I have looked at the potential problems and feel I have come up with a reliable and safe way of using this fuel.....My "safety systems" far outweigh anything provided to a 16 year old filling up his moped at a petrol forecourt for the first time!!

Glyn H -

"Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed  why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!"

But Inocs already sell a 'home' version of their kits?....If I was a home owner looking for a kit to clean my windows, then I probably would be very interested in the DIY set up you mentioned 

Do you ever feel you're banging your head against a brick wall?

Stupidly, some people think higher investment = higher return! :

Personaly, I would buy & use your system without hesitation.

Tony

[David Slater]

Nah, its only the internet... I'm sure if we were sat in the pub, most of these guys would be alright 

It was only after reading the DIY forums and other forums and chatting to guys, that I started thinking about building my own system.
So I'd say no, it doesnt feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Some guys have asked really good questions and I hope I've answered them.

Matt, Nat, Mr H, (and a load of other guys!) gave me lots of help and advice so I cant claim I did this all by myself!
It was only through talking, questioning and challenging their ideas that I started to look at it from another angle.

 

Other guys just sit on the sidelines and mock anything and everything!....that doesnt seem very productive but there you go!  :

[Alex Gardiner]

HI David,

I like your in depth reply. I suppose I do look at these systems with a suppliers eyes and I would feel nervous about selling them on to a third party. Using one myself I would not really worry.

I do like the idea of electric though, but as you point out there are still dangers to this option.

One day I may take the plunge who knows.

[David Slater]

HI David,

I like your in depth reply. I suppose I do look at these systems with a suppliers eyes and I would feel nervous about selling them on to a third party. Using one myself I would not really worry.

I do like the idea of electric though, but as you point out there are still dangers to this option.

One day I may take the plunge who knows.

Hi Alex,

What is it specifically that makes you nervous about LPG?
Let me see if I also had the same concern and managed to put controls in place for it?

My point wasnt that electric, diesel, petrol or LPG is safer/less dangerous than the other...its that they ALL have their own unique and specific hazards which need proper controls to be put in place to monitor, audit and control the hazards.

Some guys seem to think that buying a system must by virtue "make it safe". I would argue that without proper training, controls, audit and monitoring it isnt safe.

EXAMPLE - Imagine if i bought a 60' pole from you, but didnt understand how to use it correctly or how to control its hazards - I could rip my arms out at the root! or severly damage my back or even drop it on someone!

Does that mean you pole is 'dangerous' ? NO. It means the operative didnt understand how to use the equipment....and should have sought training/instruction before using it.

With proper controls in place, LPG should cause no more (or less) hazards than Gas, Electric or Diesel.


Just a thought for the guys that bought the HOT systems - how much training did you get on the system?

[Alex Gardiner]

HI David,

From a suppliers viewpoint, my main sticking point with a fitted LPG system would be ventilation. Not many would like to have a vent hole in the roof, what would be a safe and secure alternative?

I would not be too worried about storage of the gas as gas bottles are pretty robust and could have a securing cage for them.

[williamx]

or you could get up one morning, trip over your slippers and dive head  first though the bedroom window , where you land on the posrman and milkman (who are both delivering at the same time) killing them instandly .

It makes you wonder, should I really get up today

[David Slater]

HI David,

From a suppliers viewpoint, my main sticking point with a fitted LPG system would be ventilation. Not many would like to have a vent hole in the roof, what would be a safe and secure alternative?

I would not be too worried about storage of the gas as gas bottles are pretty robust and could have a securing cage for them.

Personally, I'd say there ISNT a safe alternative to putting in a proper roof mounted ventilation system.

You could do a bit of jiggery pokery on the floor I suppose (and vent it that way) but hot gases rise - so the most efficient way of exhausting those poisonous gases from the vehicle is in a straight line out of the roof.

Im humble opinion of course!! 

There are systems similar to an LEV (Local Exhaust Ventilation) which could pull or push the gases out of the vehicle...but that just one more piece of equipment to possibly fail. Keep it simple!

Unless someone else has a better idea?

From a supplier viewpoint, I think the only way to go (for all systems) is bespoke to the vehicle. What works in a Transit, may not work as well in a Vauxhall and so on...


THOUSANDS of vans have roof ventilation - police dog vans, bakers, grocers, refridgerated vans, crew buses.....so I dont think it really devalues the vehicle long term as long as its done neatly and professionally.


 

[David Slater]

David Slater, no one has said that if they brought from a supplier, “they have relived themselves from any responsibility”. Purchasing it from a supplier in the first place shows responsibility, over toying with gas.

(As far as I am aware I don’t think there are any “DIY Petrol Stations”)

As nice looking your diy hot set up is, you still don’t know the differences between one from a supplier and yours, and the hoops they have had to jump through to bring it to production.

Big down side to doing things your way, you could never sell that system (to someone responsible) so you haven’t really invested or built your business up.

You have saved money in the short term at the expense of long term. 

(Build a fleet up and see how much your business would be worth over a normal set up.)

You go to work to make money, although some are consistently only looking to save money.

Just a thought David how much training have you & your dad had on hot wfp systems?  (It’s a loaded question, because the answer is none)

Ewan,

As I said a page 3 of this topic - as soon as you post up the pictures of your system, I'll happily talk to you.

[David Slater]

or you could get up one morning, trip over your slippers and dive head  first though the bedroom window , where you land on the posrman and milkman (who are both delivering at the same time) killing them instandly .

It makes you wonder, should I really get up today

I dont understand the relevance of your question/answer?

Could you explain?

[Clive McDonald]

I thought so, nice shed/ office. I'm a big shed man fan.

I see you have lined it out with plaster board etc. If you ever finish the project put some pics up. Matt likes 40 yr old camper vans but has a shed aversion. A shed, a good one, is a fine addition to any house ands value to a similar degree to an extra bedroom. Sheds cost about £1400, so there is an obvious benefit over an extension or a conservatory.

[Alex Gardiner]

I agree David,

There isn't really an alternative to a roof vent.

[David Slater]

David Slater, no one has said that if they brought from a supplier, “they have relived themselves from any responsibility”. Purchasing it from a supplier in the first place shows responsibility, over toying with gas.

(As far as I am aware I don’t think there are any “DIY Petrol Stations”)

As nice looking your diy hot set up is, you still don’t know the differences between one from a supplier and yours, and the hoops they have had to jump through to bring it to production.

Big down side to doing things your way, you could never sell that system (to someone responsible) so you haven’t really invested or built your business up.

You have saved money in the short term at the expense of long term. 

(Build a fleet up and see how much your business would be worth over a normal set up.)

You go to work to make money, although some are consistently only looking to save money.

Just a thought David how much training have you & your dad had on hot wfp systems?  (It’s a loaded question, because the answer is none)

Ewan,

As I said a page 3 of this topic - as soon as you post up the pictures of your system, I'll happily talk to you.

David Slater

That’s just a cop out or just burying your head in the sand.

I could have posted any pictures up, but there’s no point you would have found another excuse.

Not wanting to hear or understand any possible reason why it’s not a good idea to have a diy hot system.

You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.

If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.

Sorry if my post have been a little harsh, welcome to the world outside of CIU. I may come on CIU but I wont agree just because others agree.

CIU serves two purposes learn how to do something or learn how not to do something, doing both will save you time and money.

Nope, not an excuse Ewan.

You are chasing this argument round and round without any real knowledge or understanding.

Show me your system and we'll talk further 


.....You have got a system havent you Ewan?

[Oakley Windows]

That definately is debatable 

[David Slater]

System pics please Ewan.

I've answered your questions numerous times.

Please do me the courtesy of answering my only question to you.