[peter holley]

thats not what i said .... i said it is the preffered method from a h & s aspect..... if you havnt read the h & s directive i suggest you do so ....anyway.... good for you , i wish you all the best in your buisness.......

[MJH]

Without getting into the usual wfp v trad, i am worried that the future of wc might be killed by wfp, i wonder if it will significantly drive the prices down beause in the last couple of years i have seen loads of new wfp vans!!!

Every man and his dog seams to have wfp nowadays, i have priced a few jobs recently and the prices were ridiculously on the cheap side!!

Obviously the safety aspect of wfp far outweighs ladders and i am the user of both.

[tradman]

err, i think you need to. i'm iosh registered / qualified, wrote and update my own h&s policy, method statements, risk assessments, so please don't try to pull the wool. they even have on line booklets which explains there stance. they also have one where they dismiss the myth that ladders are banned and explain that trainers are the correct type of footwear to be worn. please don't turn this into a trad v wfp thing, my replies were not meant as such. i just wish people would read and learn before trying to convince other people that there ill informed points are valid. just go and read the threads on ciu with regards to scams like telling punters they wash the frames always. lets be honest, for a row of houses that took 4hrs trad, then takes 1 hr wfp, should be reduced as takes less time, but wfpers don't do this and when punters ask they say 'well we wash your frames so you get a better job' if this was true then wfp would takes as long as a trad, i.e., a wfp doing frames and glass takes same amount of time as a tradman doing glass and sills (inc u/s where you guys don't). i do understand why you guys do this because my trad investment was a lot less than my wfp investment and commercial work where wfp is the better choice is becoming harder to get for free and more expensive to buy.

wfp, trad, backflips, wagtails, leather mops, pressure washers, guttervacs,  all tools to be used for different situations. but one cannot do all, this is the point i am trying to make. you wfpers are trying to genocide tradmen

[traps7]

Tradman thats the most sense Ive read on here yet. And for the record I'm trad and have been for 16 years but I will be looking to add wfp in the future.

[Sir Squeaky]

i have heard some rubbish. if wfp is so good, then why do so many of you post so many problems. i have wfp and i use where i HAVE too, but for you lot to say ladders are dead is utter crap. i use all the correct safety accessories on my ladders, i write risk assessments, method statements, all in line with h&s policies of my customers (where required). if you guys seriously think ladders are going to be banned, you're either naive or in denial. what about builders, roofers, aerial men, gutter n soffit men. how long before the punters realise that you guys who change from trad to wfp on there properties realise you are ripping them off, i.e., it took 20 mins with ladders but 4 mins wfp, but price is either same or increased (because you wash there frames...lol). what about the shorter working life of your joints that so many wfpers have, even lumps of gristle appearing where it shouldn't, how long before an employee sues for rss? come on guys keep it real, both will be around as long as each other. but i bet i've had less cancellations(0) due to doing a bad job than any wfper here, i also bet i've picked up more(£150 this month alone) because of a wfper doing a bad job, than a wfper has picked up of a tradman doing a bad job. sure you can wash frames, so can we, but we don't have to scam which so many on here do, just look at the live thread asking ' how many wash frames'

n.b

i'm not anti wfp as i have one, i'm just anti bull5hitters telling punters that ladders are banned coz of h&s directives, that's right i've seen you sites and flyers. i've had you wfpers on my work offering free cleans and trying to get them to sign up to 12 month dd before they realise they been stitched up (which i understand as you have paid a lot of money for your kit and are desperate for a return, any return) never works tho, not on my patch

no offense meant so i hope none taken, therefore i hope replies are not mean or nasty

Best post I've seen in years.

Spot on.
I'm 80-90% wfp, but everything you write is correct.

Exactly what I said 2 years ago before I got wfp, and I was shouted down by clueless people.
I still stand by it now too.

[L.J.Thorpe]

What I am noticing is that there are more and more WFP window cleaners appearing around here. It is definitely catching on, and I have more people stop me in the street and ask me to do their windows because I do them WFP. Its wrong to say customers don't like it, they do.

But what you also notice is the difference between the WFP cleaners and the trad cleaners. The WFP outfits have smart new vans, uniforms etc while the trad blokes are much more likely to be driving a beat up old estate car and wearing trackkies.

I am old enough to have started out using leather and scrims, I taught myself to use a squeegie over twenty years ago and went over to WFP two and a half years ago.

WFP is here to stay, it is better in every way, although you do need a bit of know how, and it is more profitable. Those are facts not opinions.

What doesn't get discussed is the way it is changing the industry. People are coming into window cleaning who would never have considered doing trad.

 With the credit crunch a lot of experienced business people are looking at ways of diversifying because their own businesses are failing.
They see window cleaning as a low risk low overhead cash business which is safe from the difficulties affecting their own trades.

An aquaintance of mine (friend of a friend really) was in on the start of weelie bin cleaning. He did very well but now says he is bombed out by new start competition that can only get the work by undercutting.
 These outfits are not owner operated but are almost exclusively run by someone who doesn't want to get his hands dirty and employs a couple of Polish guys to work the truck.
I can see window cleaning going the same way, I really can.

that one gets my vote for best post in a while

[ftp]

Yep good posts all round. I'm one of those who came in from another trade - sign written van etc purely for the fact that wfp is relatively easy to break into. No training required,  and no ladders. The downside is you need a fair bit of money to get started compared to trad methods. I have nothing against trad cleaners apart from the tiny outlay they need. If i had to scale ladders for a living i would have looked into something else for  career. I think the whole image of windowcleaning is changing for ever and mostly that's a good thing. Cutomers are getting their properties cleaned by a recognisable sign written outfit by a trustworthy easily traceable unit at much the same cost as some of the less desireable characters.

[poleman]

where does the hse actually say they prefer wfp to ladders, nonsense

HERE

And no its not nonsense, this is the view of the health & saftey executive www.hse.gov.uk/campaigns/worksmart/videos/wah9.wmv

[traps7]

I'm sure theres lots of things the hse would prefer but so what?

[peter holley]

err, i think you need to. i'm iosh registered / qualified, wrote and update my own h&s policy, method statements, risk assessments, so please don't try to pull the wool. they even have on line booklets which explains there stance. they also have one where they dismiss the myth that ladders are banned and explain that trainers are the correct type of footwear to be worn. please don't turn this into a trad v wfp thing, my replies were not meant as such. i just wish people would read and learn before trying to convince other people that there ill informed points are valid. just go and read the threads on ciu with regards to scams like telling punters they wash the frames always. lets be honest, for a row of houses that took 4hrs trad, then takes 1 hr wfp, should be reduced as takes less time, but wfpers don't do this and when punters ask they say 'well we wash your frames so you get a better job' if this was true then wfp would takes as long as a trad, i.e., a wfp doing frames and glass takes same amount of time as a tradman doing glass and sills (inc u/s where you guys don't). i do understand why you guys do this because my trad investment was a lot less than my wfp investment and commercial work where wfp is the better choice is becoming harder to get for free and more expensive to buy.

wfp, trad, backflips, wagtails, leather mops, pressure washers, guttervacs,  all tools to be used for different situations. but one cannot do all, this is the point i am trying to make. you wfpers are trying to genocide tradmen

i am not anti ladders.....i used them for many years and still do , but....ONLY  when i have to.....and THAT is is what the h&s are saying....
i notice you choose to ignore my comments on the 2 wc that died the other week......
id also like to point out that i never use h&s as a selling point to put a trad wc down .... i dont need to....my reliability is what gets me my work......

if a wc wants to be trad that is his choice...
i however enjoy the fruits of being wfp, and i am glad that my ladder use is kept to a minimum....

FACT wfp is safer....and most of the local authorities recognise this and welcome it

[peter holley]

I'm sure theres lots of things the hse would prefer but so what?

try telling that to the wifes and children of the 2 wc that recently died....(experienced cleaners)
your  "so what" mentality just about somes it up

[peter holley]

where does the hse actually say they prefer wfp to ladders, nonsense

HERE

And no its not nonsense, this is the view of the health & saftey executive www.hse.gov.uk/campaigns/worksmart/videos/wah9.wmv

thats right....common sense, not rocket sciense

[traps7]

Fine but used with common sense there is still a place for ladders. If you dont like them then dont use them. We know the risks. Theres a lot of people who have just jumped in to window cleaning with wpf from nowhere and are telling people who have been cleaning a long time how to do their job. Not all trad cleaners are second rate cowboys.

[peter holley]

why take risks??? when the alternative is safer and more profitable....wfp makes sense

[traps7]

There's lots of reasons. Personally I can't afford the investment at the moment and I'm still not convinced of wfp.  I'm doing great at the moment with my ladders. I no longer see it as wfp v's trad though. I think I'll need both. I don't clean above first floor on ladders but then I wouldn't clean my shop windows or pub insides with a pole. They're both gonna have their place. A wfp guy I know won't take on inside work. If I convert to wfp I will lose some pubs etc that need the inside cleaning. What sort of a service would I be providing then? Equally I dont wanna be cleaning second floor windows or above off a ladder or leaning over somebodys basement.

[peter holley]

thats the point though, i do inside of pubs trad b but then im not taking any risks...the start up costs on wfp arent that expensive...you can start with a backpack, and work your way up to a van mount, its a move you will never regret....and your trad experience will be there for your shops and insides etc.

[cat9921]

i have heard some rubbish. if wfp is so good, then why do so many of you post so many problems.

that's a good question......... The reason is because there is a learning curve to WFP. You might be able to do a window and the next one give you problems so you ask ?

As for this trad will be in the bin I agree that it will never die
Trad is great and I still need ladders to get on to flat roofs..

But for trad cleaner to say that WFP is rubbish, Its not. It really is a good tool,. but its just that, a tool and not the answer to all the work and situations that we all come across 

LONG LIVE WFP and TRAD

[NWH]

I say to anyone give WFP a year with your business and then make you decision,99% will thank god they did it just makes life so so much easier,you`ll have more energy at the end of the week to do other things.

[[GQC] Tim]

I say to anyone give WFP a year with your business and then make you decision,99% will thank god they did it just makes life so so much easier,you`ll have more energy at the end of the week to do other things.

IMO you don't need a year for that. I was delighted the second week, first week there were little things that annoyed me, second week was already such a delight.

[cat9921]

I say to anyone give WFP a year with your business and then make you decision,99% will thank god they did it just makes life so so much easier,you`ll have more energy at the end of the week to do other things.

110 % agree

In fact it was people like you NWH and others that told me to stick with it and now 2 years later I wished I had done it sooner

Thanks