[Karl Wildey]

Cleaned a wool woven carpet in November, the grippers were laid in full lengths and glued to the concrete with a hot melt glue system. (I found this out when the carpet shrunk). As the carpet dried the grippers pinned off the floor - result a shrunken carpet and a non-happy customer.
I returned replaced and fitted the grippers, and re-fitted the carpet - customer happy.
New year starts and customer is now saying the carpet is dirtier than before, (I cleaned with ultimate master).
Customer wants new carpet from me, I have offered to re-clean the carpet and/or give money back, customer wants a new carpet.
I have explained that I can not give a new carpet just because the customer is unhappy about the cleaning, but now the husband is saying the carpet has ruts in it.
Any views or where I stand, or what I should do next?
I have 17 years experince and a pile of training behind me. I have never had a carpet shrink, so that the grippers pinned off the floor and never had a complaint that a carpet is now dirtier than when I clean it, (after only 5 weeks).
any views?

[mark_roberts]

I'm confused as to why it shrank in the first place?

Any ideas?

I would offer to get a professional fitter, even of their choice, to refit.  Then I would re-clean for free.

Dont see why you should refund without trying to solve the matter first.

Mark

[Dynafoam]

Karl,

Your legal obligation is to restore the carpet to a reasonably acceptable state,

It could be argued that since the carpet has shrunk it is smaller that it was and this cannot be restored.

In practise if the carpet appears to fit the room well enough and is 'reasonably' clean, that should be acceptable.

Presented with the current situation, without any knowledge of the cleaner involved, one would be tempted to speculate the the carpet was insufficiently extracted, resulting in over-wetting, the shrinkage and subsequent resoling.

Are you sure that this is a woven, wool carpet and not a Belgian Wilton?

Since you were able to refit the carpet to the customers initial satisfaction, the shrinkage can probably be discounted the 'ruts' are unlikely to be the result of the clean but may improve with a better re-fit (possibly the individual sections of underlay moved apart during re-fitting).

Think carefully about a re-clean - if it is a Belgian Wilton, further shrinkage could occur. have you a low-moisture method at your disposal?

It may help persuade your customer to allow you to rectify the situation to point out that an insurance company will only pay out sufficient to restore the situation to that which prevailed immediately before the clean. This does not mean a free replacement, as the carpet was not new, and a deduction from replacement cost would be made for wear and tear.

Good luck with this- it will require all the diplomacy you can muster to avoid an insurance claim.

[Karl Wildey]

The carpet is definetly a wool woven, not a belgian wilton.

I would expect a woven carpet to pull tight, during the cleaning, but should hold on the grippers. Unfortately the grippers had been fitted in 3,4 and 5 foot lengths and glued using minimum about of glue and just pulled from the floor.
Should have looked closer at the gripper fitting, and had taken more care with the extraction. too late now.

I would happily re-clean or give the money back, but this client has got tunnel vision, ie I shrank the carpet, therefore that is why it is now dirty. She has told me that the water was too hot and that is why it shrank and is now dirty.

I am ncca registered, taken loads of IICRC exams. So I know about water temperature, ph scale, construction and all that stuff that will bored your average joe to death, but gets us professional carpet cleaner buzzing with excitement.

The client was happy with the carpet being re-fitted, but now says it is dirty and that I shunk it. No matter how many times I tell her the carpet is now fitted back, it will not sink in.

My name is Karl Wildey and I run Connoisseur Carpet Care in Norfolk, for those who wonder who this is.

[Doug Holloway]

Karl,

I once had a problem with grippers which were not fitted to the concrete floor properly , luckily the guy was a decent bloke and blamed the fitting.

You obviously have a different animal so I would just offer a reclean , money back OR nothing if he kept messing me around.

Once he realises your not for bullying things will change,

Cheers,

Doug

[mark_roberts]

Dont give in then.

As your NCCA offer to get another NCCA member or even a director to visit the customer to give an 'independant. view.  You'll have to pay them of course.

Mark

[Dynafoam]

Karl,

I did not intend to question your professionalism. You will notice that I did say "without any knowledge of the cleaner involved, one would be tempted......"

When grippers are fitted with a hot glue gun in long lengths the glue first deposited can start to set before the strip is fixed, so this likely had an influence.

How many cleaners uplift a carpet to check all the grippers? None - unless there is an obvious problem.

What you are now faced with is a contest where one side feels they have nothing to loose. Write to them stating that you resolved the fitment situation to their expressed satisfaction and have offered (without prejudice) to re-clean to resolve their outstanding complaint.

If you stick to your guns their remaining option is small claims court. If you establish that they have not allowed you to re-clean, the court should not order against you. They have an obligation to allow you to put things right before extreme measures are taken.

[Len Gribble]

Karl

Thanks for the up date why not up date your profile?

If push came to shove I would go down the route that mark suggested but I would go for a director, if it got to a court action¸ go for the credibility angle.

Len

[Michel Roberts]

CarpetKarl

You say that the gripper was stuck in lenghs either full(5ft) or 3-4 ft

This is quite wrong and would be the cause of the gripper pulling up

When glueing carpet gripper it should always be cut into 6" pieces

I speak as a carpet fitter with more than 30 years in the carpet fitting business

I am also a founder member of the National Institute Of carpet and floor Fitters

BS 5325 2001 Part 6, Code of practice for the installation of textile floorcovering says exactly the same thing

In my opinion Any installation where the gripper has been glued in lenghs of 3-4 ft is bound to fail.

If you need any advice about the installation side of that job let me know and I will send you my phone no

Regards Michel 

[Karl Wildey]

I will go and see the customer and see how badly the cleaning is and how bad the ruts are, this I hope we defuse the situation. When I left after re-fitting the carpet both fitting and cleaning was satisfactory. So as suggested maybe its time to say I will not be bullied.
I will update.

Never saw the profile icon till it was mentioned by Len, so thanks for that I will update my profile.

Big thank you to Micheal. I know from training and installation guides that the gripper should always be cut to 6-8" lengths when glueing to a concrete floor. This has been a main problem between me and the client. She paid £400.00 for the carpet and thinks that its a lot of money and that the carpet fitter would not have cut corners at this price. I know the gripper was fitted wrong, now thanks to Micheal, I have the bs 5325 2001 code of practice to quote her. Big thank you.

[Dave_Lee]

Karl,
I also fit carpets (25 years) as well as cleaning. I glue gripper in full lenghs (5ft) on sound floors after a quick wipe along the floor with a solvent dampened cloth. As has already been said, I cut the gripper in shorter lenghs when the floor is less than perfect. I have never had any problems with any gripper lifting. The answer is to use the correct adhesive and in sufficient quantity, then leave for at least 24 hours before fitting carpet. I am freelance and can arrange to do my jobs this way - contract fitters working for shops or stores cant, so many of them use Hot Melt Adhesive, which imo does not have anywhere near the same grab and is more prone to detatchment.
As regards you refitting the carpet - how long after the clean was that. I would have preffered to wait at least 2 weeks for the carpet to settle down. A shrunken carpet of the type you described, over 2 weeks would have relaxed and expanded back, to some if not all its original dimensions. Forcing a re-stretch too soon, can expand the carpet against its wishes, so to speak, and when it does relax on its own, ruck or ripples can form.
On the point of - she wants a new carpet - do a search on 'Insurance', if the worst came to the worst - she is only entitled to compensation, assesed on the carpets value, immediatly prior to you cleaning it - not a new one.
Dave.

[mark_roberts]

A least £400 isnt a huge amount.

What sort of woven wool carpet is it for £400 or is it a small room?

Mark

[Dave_Lee]

Just another point. She says the fitter would not have cut corners, because of the price of the carpet. I see (as Im sure others do) badly fitted expensive carpets all the time.
Most contract fitters just want to get the job done in the shortest possible time, usually because they are under pressure from the shop or store. The price of the carpet has little to do with the fitting quality, its just pot luck whether you get a good or bad fitter.
Dave.

[Karl Wildey]

The room measures 12 x12, and I re-fitted 8 days after the clean.

I know the fitting was wrong, she does not believe me. I will dig out the training manuals and anything else about fitting on concrete and that should change her attitude, or will it?

[Karl Wildey]

Just an up date on my claim.
I went to the client's house and inspected the carpet, because the client claimed it had a  rut in it, as well as being dirty.
There are no ruts and the carpets was not dirty. Unfortunately they think it is.
I offer the money back or a re-clean, but this has been refused and they are going to take me to court.
They want a new carpet and nothing else so I'm just going to wait and fight in court, or hopefully by letter.

Been cleaning carpets for 17 years and have never had a problem like this before.

They say 'Variety is the spice of life', well I give me the norm.

[Dynafoam]

Karl,

Did you take any photos?

Though they might not be accepted as a true representation of the cleanliness of the carpet, a photo of the area the custard claims to be rutted would prove useful to the court.

[woodman]

If you are going to court you should definately get an independent report carried out.

This could also prevent the need to go to court in the first place as if its as you say you will have no case to answer.

If the client prevents an report being carried out, like wise, no case to answer.

But you must be prepared , if the report does not find in your favour you will have to replace the carpet.

[Doug Holloway]

Karl,

It is important to document what has happened so far.

Write to your customer with a brief outline of the history and repeat your offer to reclean or refund in writing.

I would also put something like.'We feel we have acted in good faith throughout , but as you will not allow us to reclean the carpet we cannot be of any furter assistance.However should you change your mind our offer of recleaning will be avaiable for a further 3 months until 20/4/05'.

This should show you are in charge and if a claim arises you can reasonably say in court that you have acted in good faith throughout.

Cheers,

Doug

[Neil Gott]

Karl, get in touch with the NCCA free legal advice service.

My own advice  in this type of situation is that when writing to the client, send the letter by recorded delivery. It shows everybody that you are what you are - a professional taking the issue seriously.

[Karl Wildey]

Have sat and waited to see if customer would take me to court. I have not been given the chance to 'make the customer happy', so I felt that his chances in court would be slim.

Customer has just rang to ask for his money back, so cheque will be in the post. So no court,  And I hope that is the last I hear.

Many thanks to all those that replied and helped me out,
This is a great site.