[JJdomestics]

Ok lets start again so its a bit clearer and you can stop quoting me. It was made clear when she first started and is in the written statement of employment which I gave to her within the time limit. She isn't my only employee and everyone takes it off their holiday and it's just the fact that she has questioned it that has made me think twice about pay over the christmas period. Does that make anymore sense? Sorry I should have put ths to start with perhaps. Oops!

[JJdomestics]

Thanks everyone for your help tonight :-)

[glenda hollis]

Blimey JJ you should have said all this! Well there you have it, those are the rules and she's agreed to them. You certainly cannot have one person being paid for it and not another. You have no  choice but to stick to your grounds. She should have considered all this before she started. It doesnt change the fact that she may well get the bank holiday paid if she worked elsewhere but like i said there are reasons why -as a small firm- you cannot afford to pay it. You've said it in writing and if you back-track you'll have a riot with your other staff! Good luck.

[JJdomestics]

Thanks. I want to be fair but not to be walked on.

[Fox]

When you agree to holidays -  you have to give the minimum of 24 days pro rata - you should say that they include bank holidays if that is a normal day worked this stops all the moans about no BH pay.

I would not make an exception with this employee or any other - as GaryJ says - tough!

I get staff saying to me 'but its not my fault that the site is closed why should I use my holidays? I should just get paid'.  I tell them to recall the memo given to them when started about saving hols for Christmas?  They tend to shut up then.

Yes staff are important, pay them well, give them respect and good working conditions as long as they tow the line, give respect and a good standard of work back.  But at the end of the day you are running a business not a charity. 

Fox

[Paul Kettless]

Saving holiday for the christmas period is very common, and something that I had to do every year whilst i was working for my previous employer (pre cleaning days).

The company always closed for the period 24/12 - 02/01, as many have already commented it was in my contract and I had to simply lump it and book the holiday....

Paul

[JJdomestics]

Right I have an update. I explained it to her again this morning and she said that her husband wasn't happy with it and he was going to ring me. She said she wont work for me if I dont pay her for bank holidays. I do treat her well I praise her all the time, I give a little bonus when I can and I have even bought a box of chocolates to show how much i appreciate her. I will not be dictated to tho on how I should pay my staff especaillly from the husband. So I have asked her to read through her contract again and let me know what she decides. I can't e any fairer than that.

[glenda hollis]

No you can't be fairer, where was her hubby when she signed the contract? What do your other staff who have been with you longer than her think about taking it as holiday, and will they help back you up that this  is the way it has to be?

[garyj]

How many times have I been told " I'm telling my husband "   LOADS!!!

When irate husband phones or turns up on your doorstep tell him you have no legal obligation to talk to him and you are acting within the law AND tell him to leave or refuse to answer any questions on the phone. If you are threatened tell the police, it will help you when he comes around your house and you end up punching him in the mouth.

I would see her bringing her husband into the dispute as a threat and now I would dig my heals in even more. At worst you are going to be paying her and taking it off any holiday entitlement. Do not overpay her, check how much hols she has left because I get the feeling she won't be around much longer and if you do over pay her over you'll NEVER get it back.

[steve doyle]

yup,

what does she/hubby not agree with? the contract she signed?

thats not very bright! lol.

 As above,"no need to discuss with anyone, its set out in the contract/terms of emp.. you can read it their," you can also if needed use the old "If you want to to run the business your way, fine buy it off me!"


I think she is now suitably p'd off, if you decide to show any good will, it will be seen as weakness and rest assured there will be more to come from her and her hubby! also she WILL tell the other staff! I think with resentment growing on both sides you can only go for broke and squash this issue, she either comes to her senses or you lose her for good. either way you know where you are, i dont like the idea of staff hanging around waiting to drop you in it!

I think you can do no more than give her a reality check, and take back control of the situation; "the company policy is the same for everyone, i will be sorry if  you choose to resign but its your decision if you want to go and work for someone else. Anyway, go home, have a think about what you want to do then let me know tommorow". (You must be the one controlling the situation, not them.)

This situation could get alot worse if its not dealt with quickly and firmly.

Its funny in this industry, many people work from home and often treat staff in a nice and friendly way (unprofessional???),  this seems to backfire and results in some employees showing a total lack of respect for the boss. They seem to get the idea that they somehow have a say in running things. I think generally the staff need reminding of whos actually in charge from time to time.

anyways gud luck,


steve

[Scotbrite]

Hi,
I agree with Steve Doyle completely. If u have given a contract - stick to it, its the only way to be professional and fair to all the others u employ. It is standard policy {and government directive} to include an allowance for b/hols in with total holiday allowance and as Fox (i think it was) says its a business not a charity. Remember she will be allowed one day extra hol this year because of the increase in hol entitelment. ie 4wks + 4 days(b/hol) from Oct.1st.
ANYWAY - Merry Cristmas and a good New Year to all on here,

Regards,

Ron

[steve doyle]

Any update on this one?



How merry was the cleaners christmas?

[JJdomestics]

Hi sorry  I haven't been on for a while but wanted to give you an update on my cleaner. She did send me a text saying that she was going to give me a weeks notice in which I replied and said I would be sorry to loose her but if she has made her desicion then I will respect it. When I called round to drop the wages off she said that If i valued her as an employee I would pay her for bank holidays so again I had to explain that I don't pay bank holidays never have and probably never will. Once she knew I wasn't going to back down she then rethought her choice and said she needed longer to think about it. I am advertising for extra staff at the moment anyway but she has put her order in for more cleaning things so maybe she has changed her mind. Do you think I should mention it again? or leave it and see how it goes?

[Art]

Well done JJ. Firm but fair and you got a result.

If it were me i'd just leave it. I think she got the message.

Arthur

[steve doyle]

yes nice one,

you called her bluff and she knows you wont be held over a barrel. this should save you from anymore of this in the future.

like arthur I would also just leave it alone unless she mentions it again.

 however i would be raising it if i got wind of any dissent or bad behaviour from her. If she is being disruptive because she didnt get her way then i would bring it to a head and say something like " you told me you were going to be writing a letter of resignation for me, have you done it yet? (pause for reply) why not?

The reason for this would be,

1. To hammer home that her job isnt as secure as she thinks as she will be replaced.
2. To remind everyone who gives the ultimatums.
Hopefully initiating a change of attitude.

and ultimatly depending on her behaviour, put her into a position where she does hand in her resignation if that is what you want from her.

Im in no way encouraging threatening people with the sack every 2 mins. Its simply a continuation of a resignation conversation initiated by the employee. If they choose to go down that route they are aware of the possible conclusions and have made their choice to accept the risks.
By simply following it to a conclusion the employee is forced to accept a complete defeat or they resign.
As it is i suspect you have seen the end of it, however the option is their to follow it through should you want to.

personally if someone is a potential threat to the business i would want them out quickly, so for me the next few weeks attitude would be of great interest!

let us know!

steve

[carpet guy]

Unfortunately, this kind of situation could well come back to haunt you, usually when you need it least.

[Fox]

I had a cleaner who disagreed with me over taking breaks in her 2.5 hr shift.  She was much the same, reliable, honest and for the most part hard working.  One day she said that she was going to hand in her notice because of the situation.  The next day I handed her a letter accepting her verbal resignation.  She was shocked and tried to back pedal but I replaced her anyway.  Once a cleaner says stuff like that they are no longer a trustworthy employee in my opinion.  Never let anyone hold something like their notice over you, I would rather work 24/7 than let someone like that call the shots.

I would be tempted to do the same with this employee and give her a finish date for her notice period, but this is your business not mine or anyone elses, do what you think is best, (which I think you have already decided).  Well done for taking a stand.

Fox

[garyj]

Yep, the best cleaner I have ever come across ( he was a bit mad! ) worked for me a few years back. Had a loo floor that needed cleaning, he stayed all night and brought it up like new. Had a factory clean-up, he stayed for 3 days and even cleaned the walls, the place looked fantastic. His standards were amazing and he just loved gettting things clean.
I asked him to come to a site to have a look at a problem with me and while we were there he said you couldn't run this business without me  . He was out the door in under 2 minutes.  He was someone that I could phone and get me out of trouble and everyone thought he was a great cleaner, the downside was he thought he could run the company, cheese off the other cleaners and used to be on the phone to me every hour, day and night.
When staff become hassle or get too big for there boots it's time they went, and quickly.

I've seen hundreds of cleaners come and go over the years, some have been brilliant, but I have never been sorry to see the back of one of them when they have left.

[JJdomestics]

Well I think I will take everyones advice and not mention it again but It has definately opened my eyes a bit. I can't seem to get the amount of praise right tho. I tell them the positive commments that the  clients say and also say thank you  did a great job at ............. bla bla bla but then it seems to go the thier head. I know from personal experiences that to be appreciated in your job makes it a bit more bearable so I treat others as I wish to be treated myself but maybe I shoud be a bit firmer. oh the joys of being a boss eh!

[J. Deans]

Here is the link to the 'Holiday Entitlement Calculator':
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1079427399&r.li=1079484078&r.l1=1073858787

Also.
This was posted elsewhere some time ago. The example below is no longer valid, as holiday entitlement has since changed, but the #/fifths part still applies as a general guide.
The main thing is that your employee has set days of work. So if any of those days falls on a bank holiday, she is entitled to holiday pay. (for example: 25 - 26 December this year - but if these fell on a Saturday and Sunday, why should you have to pay for them!)
But regardless of that, she cannot demand payment from you and still keep her holidays. They are statuatory holidays for two reasons. 1. You must pay an employee holiday pay if they would normally have worked on that day. 2. The employee is entitled to take a statuatory holiday off and cannot be made to work. Simple as that. So it sounds like you did the right thing if you paid her and took it away from her holiday entitlement.

"Part time workers (prevention of less favourable treatment) EC Directive on Part time work and (amendment) Regulations 2002 (SI 2002/2035)

This directive basically means.
If you have no 'full time' employees, you cannot be accused of less favourable treatment by reducing a part timers holiday entitlement.

BUT:
The guidelines indicate that you should offer part time workers a % of the statuatory holiday entitlement that a full time worker would get.
The guide amount is based on fifths of the normal entitlement.

SO:
The statuatory entitlement is 15 days per year.
If your part timer works 2 days a week, then 2 fifths of 15 days = 6 days holiday entitlement. 3 days = 3 fifths etc. (The amount of holiday pay is an average of the normal hours worked on each day)
If she demands - and you pay her for Boxing day - she loses one of her days - simple.

Part time workers have the same rights as full timers if any of their working days  normally fall onto a statuatory bank holiday. So, if she normally works Christmas day, and you don't offer her any work, then she is entitled to holiday pay if. If you do offer her work, she is entitled to normal pay + holiday pay. In other words - Double Time!"