[Village Gleam]

Davo you gave us all some very good food for thought, and probably in some cases made us question what we were doing. Later posts of yours have not followed the premise that you initially laid down though.

My verdict is that you can only pursue this as a hobby, at the levels of commitmment and investment you describe it will never be a business. You have indentified an opportunity, but you are not in a position to access it.

When starting a new business you should look for opportunities for growth, look for an industry that is undergoing a period of change because this is when the greatest opportunities arise, changes in legislation that affect an industry such as health and safety can also be helpfull.If possible look for something with a high barrier to entry.

This last, high barrier to entry is the only thing it lacks in the text book sence. Low as it is this is what has stopped you. Like the bacon and egg breakfast, the pigs commited.

[Davo]

Davo you gave us all some very good food for thought, and probably in some cases made us question what we were doing. Later posts of yours have not followed the premise that you initially laid down though.

My verdict is that you can only pursue this as a hobby, at the levels of commitmment and investment you describe it will never be a business. You have indentified an opportunity, but you are not in a position to access it.

When starting a new business you should look for opportunities for growth, look for an industry that is undergoing a period of change because this is when the greatest opportunities arise, changes in legislation that affect an industry such as health and safety can also be helpfull.If possible look for something with a high barrier to entry.

This last, high barrier to entry is the only it lacks in the text book sence. Low as it is this is what has stopped you. Like the bacon and egg breakfast, the pigs commited.

I beg to differ  regarding your comment on my commitment level, my plan is evolving as a consequence of potential problems arising with my original business plan.

However I WILL NOT EMPLOY so I am looking into ways to overcome this problem. I do have an idea, however it will  take more research.

As to my level of investment, if I wanted to buy a brand new van and 2 man van mount system I could, If I wanted to spend another £1500 on a van wrap no problem. But I believe initially this would be foolish, cos the van would lose a third of its value as soon as  I drive it out of the dealership. And any value my round had if I wanted to "get out" would be eaten away in depreciation

My initial plan is to confirm my own belief that this is a viable business which can be operated profitably with a relatively low capital investment, without being an owner operator cleaner.

I will keep you posted but cant say much at this point until I have all the relevent facts available.



Mark

[williamx]

If you have someone doing your work and it's more than 60% of their total work you have to employ them. Also if you have a self employed person working for you and they don't keep their own tax affairs in order you will be liable.
There is no way round the system if you want to sleep at night.
Chris

I think you may be mistaken here but I will find out because there will definately be a way arround this. Otherwise there would be no agents for insurance companies etc etc.

Thanks for the info though

Mark

Davo

Please call this number 0845 302 1437

It is the Inland Revenue helpline number.

Tell them what you want to do regarding having someone do the work for you.

They will tell you the law regarding this, they will also advise what is the best method for what you want.

It is up to you, but if you break the rules they will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

You have seen a business idea were you can make money from window cleaning, this is possible, if you go the right way, if you want to take short cuts, you might get away with it, but if you don't then all hell will break loose.

[Moderator David@stives]

Davo

Check out this info

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/WorkingAndPayingTax/DG_4015975

Also if you can find me a van nearly new 30% cheaper i would be very interested lol.

Dave

[windowwashers]

If you have someone doing your work and it's more than 60% of their total work you have to employ them. Also if you have a self employed person working for you and they don't keep their own tax affairs in order you will be liable.
There is no way round the system if you want to sleep at night.
Chris

I think you may be mistaken here but I will find out because there will definately be a way arround this. Otherwise there would be no agents for insurance companies etc etc.

Thanks for the info though

Mark

you will find agents that work for insurance companies work for many different ones and their incle does not come from one sourcem Davo you started well, but it seems from what I am reading you are already trying as hard as possible to cut corners, put it this way if a guy does all your work in the eyses of IR they are an employee a way round it is do it yourself or open an insurance agency, far to many people think they know about business when clearly they do not, cutting corners before starting is IMO a shakey foundation to grow on, and from another post you have written you think, by getting a few houses clean them say a year then sell for mega money I hate to tell you "You are mistaken" window cleaning domestic is loyalty based they will be loyal to the cleaner they know (you not being it) you are going to learn the hard way I think.

[Davo]

If you have someone doing your work and it's more than 60% of their total work you have to employ them. Also if you have a self employed person working for you and they don't keep their own tax affairs in order you will be liable.
There is no way round the system if you want to sleep at night.
Chris

I think you may be mistaken here but I will find out because there will definately be a way arround this. Otherwise there would be no agents for insurance companies etc etc.

Thanks for the info though

Mark

you will find agents that work for insurance companies work for many different ones and their incle does not come from one sourcem Davo you started well, but it seems from what I am reading you are already trying as hard as possible to cut corners, put it this way if a guy does all your work in the eyses of IR they are an employee a way round it is do it yourself or open an insurance agency, far to many people think they know about business when clearly they do not, cutting corners before starting is IMO a shakey foundation to grow on, and from another post you have written you think, by getting a few houses clean them say a year then sell for mega money I hate to tell you "You are mistaken" window cleaning domestic is loyalty based they will be loyal to the cleaner they know (you not being it) you are going to learn the hard way I think.

Ian thats a big fence youve been sat on . How am I cutting corners? Im simply looking for  a legal alternative to employing staff. You also tend to summise a great deal from the posts that I have written.  From your reply above you must have read some ficticious post I have written , maybe it was this one?

" What I propose to do is get a few houses clean them for a year the sell them for mega money "

You are welcome to your opinion, but please base it on what has been written rather than what you think it says. Or indeed based on what the previous couple of posters have said.


Mark

[windowwashers]

If you have someone doing your work and it's more than 60% of their total work you have to employ them. Also if you have a self employed person working for you and they don't keep their own tax affairs in order you will be liable.
There is no way round the system if you want to sleep at night.
Chris

I think you may be mistaken here but I will find out because there will definately be a way arround this. Otherwise there would be no agents for insurance companies etc etc.

Thanks for the info though

Mark

you will find agents that work for insurance companies work for many different ones and their incle does not come from one sourcem Davo you started well, but it seems from what I am reading you are already trying as hard as possible to cut corners, put it this way if a guy does all your work in the eyses of IR they are an employee a way round it is do it yourself or open an insurance agency, far to many people think they know about business when clearly they do not, cutting corners before starting is IMO a shakey foundation to grow on, and from another post you have written you think, by getting a few houses clean them say a year then sell for mega money I hate to tell you "You are mistaken" window cleaning domestic is loyalty based they will be loyal to the cleaner they know (you not being it) you are going to learn the hard way I think.

Ian thats a big fence youve been sat on . How am I cutting corners? Im simply looking for  a legal alternative to employing staff. You also tend to summise a great deal from the posts that I have written.  From your reply above you must have read some ficticious post I have written , maybe it was this one?

" What I propose to do is get a few houses clean them for a year the sell them for mega money "

You are welcome to your opinion, but please base it on what has been written rather than what you think it says. Or indeed based on what the previous couple of posters have said.


Mark

Hi Mark, I reply as do others with thier opinions it is just that am opinion, as for the large fence, I always sit in the middle that way I always have options  text is read in many different ways it depends on how it is wrote and how the reader perceives it.

My comment about selling for mega money come from this part of a post that you wrote "van would lose a third of its value as soon as  I drive it out of the dealership. And any value my round had if I wanted to "get out" would be eaten away in depreciation"

buying a new van has many benifits, some just cant afford a new one, some dont want a new one etc etc you are right in a way it could be classed as foolish starting a business you know little about and spending out on a new van, on the flip side some would start as you mean to go on. from what you have written or should I say the way I am reading what you have written you are having doubts.

I wish you well in your start-up business as long as you treat it like one it will work, I have been self employed for over 10 years so I must be doing something right 

One last thing saying I can afford this that  does not read well m8  :

RIGHT I'M GETTING BACK ON MY FENCE 

[Ian_Giles]

I don't think you will find a legit way around the issue Mark.
At some point this guy will have to work for you and pack in his normal job, yes?

At the moment he is doing no more than a bit of part time work for you....not a problem...yet.
But he is also doing all of the work, you are not doing it yourself, and you are the guy supplying him with all the equipment transport and 100% of the work he is doing.
In the eyes of the tax man YOU ARE HIS EMPLOYER! Second job or not, and although you may continue just as you are doing and quite possibly never get caught, that I'm afraid is a fact.

I also believe you are wrong on the way in which a second income is taxed, but you'd have to check with the tax man himself as I'm sure it can get pretty complicated!!
And don't forget...if you get away with it for say...5 or 6 years, and then get caught out, the tax man will go back right to the beginning!!

Ian

[williamx]

Davo

There are ways to cuts costs when you employ someone and they are legal, but firstly you need to charge your customers the right amount to cover all of your costs in running your business.

For a example

You need to have a minimum charge , which is realistic for you needs, this should be £5.00 for the fronts and £10.00 front and back, if the job is going to take longer than another house because of access issues or any other thing then you prices needs to go up to cover the extra time involved in the cleaning.

On all 1st cleans you need to charge double the price, this will cover you on the time issue and it also stops the one off clean customers.

When you employ anyone, make sure that you employ them on a part time basis of 16 hours and pay them £6.00 per hour.

With this way you are covered on what you pay out for holiday and sickness pay.

Next you need to also pay them commission for what they clean, this should be around 35% of the total price of the cleaning price.

You can work your figures out on the basis that the cleaner will clean 3 house per hour and he will work 7 hours a day, 4 days a week, this will give you a income of £840.

Your immediate costs are wages £6.00 per hours for 28 hours = £168.00 commission £840 @ 35% = £294.00 + £168.00 = £462.00

You will have to pay national insurance condibutions for him of 12.8% on what he earns over £70.00 (this is not the coreect figure but its close to it), so you will have to pay £462.00 - £70.00 x 12.8% = £50.17

So your gross profit so far is

Income £840.00
Wages £462.00
NI         £50.17

Balance £327.83

Out of this figure you have to take out you other expenses, but you should have at least £200.00 before any tax you are liable for.     
 

[Majestic]

I also live near Blackpool and work in the area, will I have seen you about . Is your van sign written.
I find it a bit hard to beleive the amount of work that you have picked up with the amount of window cleaners around the Blackpool area and the prices they charge.

[Village Gleam]

Brilliant post william x.

That's what I like about this kind of debate, you start off thinking you know everything (speaking for myself)and end up learning something.

Davo (I notice you've started calling yourself Mark). Even when you've biult the business, which as ww says is loyalty based, it's worth very little. How much would you pay for a 35K job?
Not very much, and then you have to buy the assets as well.

[Davo]

I also live near Blackpool and work in the area, will I have seen you about . Is your van sign written.
I find it a bit hard to beleive the amount of work that you have picked up with the amount of window cleaners around the Blackpool area and the prices they charge.

Hello john, the work, apart from one job, isnt in Blackpool, its out of the area, too many cleaners, seaside town high winter unemployment etc. Oh and I imagine the rates are diabolical too ( dont know though cos Ive never considered the area as a prime area for decently priced work) blackpool that is dont know about cleveleys, poulton or fleetwood.

Ive had a very long day so Ill re read evrything tomorrow when im not too tired and tell you the track im looking down to LEGALLY avoid an employer employee situation.

Goodnight gents


Mark