[twt]

Mark whats wrong with undercuting or competative pricing. when you buy something or other does the price not come into your choice of where you buy it from. If a company offered you cheeper utility bill for your home would you not take them up on the offer because their undercutting another company. I

[macmac]

There is a very miss-informed school of thought & ill-conceived barrage of advise on this forum by many members that if you buy a bigger than you need van, a bigger than you need tank, a stupid fishing pole for domestic work : & a wfp system that you'll be earning mega-bucks in no time & to be frank it's all 'deleted. It's not & never has been the tools of the trade that earn you the money, it's YOU, the individual, no big fancy wfp system is going to make you any richer. Once again (for the sheep) wfp systems do not go out on their own & bring in more money for you. YOU have to go out & do that, & that is something that any w/c can do be it trad or wfp. It takes time, usually a long time, just think about it, if it was as easy & forthcoming as some suggest on here then we'd all be rich 'deleted'
And just to add, there are still loads of trad cleaners out there earning a fantastic wage. Me, i'm wfp & trad & always will be untill forced otherwise, a good percentage of my best paying accounts are trad only.
I'm sorry to sound blunt but it pains me to see so many people getting .'deleted'with all this wfp & millionaire nuts.
This is a general response & not aimed at any individual. rant over

tony

[steve k]

a gross salary is a gross salary and is what any conventionally employed person will tell you they earn.
A friend who is a doctor may earn £50k per annum gross. They would not, if you asked, give you a net income figure after they had paid taxes and NI, mortgage repayments, loan repayments, car expenses etc etc.
They would just proudly tell you "£50,000 a year"

The same happens when an employer advertises a vacancy...the salary advertised is gross.

Our overheads are just the same...tax, NI, insurance is £60/£80 a year for the sole trader, vehicle expenses and diesel, resin once a year and a couple of filters twice a year, a bunch of squeegee blades every few months and the occasional pole...?

Business= as high an income as possible with the lowest outgoings as possible

Window cleaning has to have one of the lowest overhead bills going.

[steve m]

maybe they are in the same boat as I was, driving the old clapped out runabout till they could afford the nice sign written van. dont judge people on what they drive, judge them on their work

[steve k]

Mac...just read your post and would also add that manufacturers systems have to be the biggest rip off around and as long as you get your tank bolted into the chassis by an appropriate person, a 400L system should cost about £500/£600 tops all in.

[macmac]

Mac...just read your post and would also add that manufacturers systems have to be the biggest rip off around and as long as you get your tank bolted into the chassis by an appropriate person, a 400L system should cost about £500/£600 tops all in.

HI steve
It woudn't matter if the system came free, it still wont earn you any more money.do you see my point? members of this forum tend to barrage others into wfp on the back of the thought that it'll magicaly start earning them loads more money. It's nuts & wrong. I always tell it like it is, wether it makes me unpopular or not. :

tony

[steve k]

I would always make more on WFP purely because I would not last doing trad...I found the long days as boring as anything I have ever encountered and it was the speed of cleaning that I could achieve on MY round that swayed me into switching.
I still have a bit of trad which I enjoy doing but the days of  looking down a long street of semis on a cold winter morning and knowing I had to knock out 20 of them before going home are long gone.

[macmac]

I would always make more on WFP purely because I would not last doing trad...I found the long days as boring as anything I have ever encountered and it was the speed of cleaning that I could achieve on MY round that swayed me into switching.
I still have a bit of trad which I enjoy doing but the days of  looking down a long street of semis on a cold winter morning and knowing I had to knock out 20 of them before going home are long gone.

Exactly, but you fail to mention the fact that cold freezing mornings bring many problems to wfp & how exactly do you earn more money? or are you still earning the same money but in less time?

tony

[Davew]

OOh err I've started something here, sorry guys. I'm not trying to get at anyone - just airing my observations. I just had one of my worst weeks earnings wise so am a little grouchy don't start the earnings debate again please. I came home in a foul mood and just assumed that no-one round my area was making a good living. My problem is purely building and expanding faster than I thought I would have too. Mainly due to let downs probably because many people are feeling the pinch. Four hundred redundancies have just been announced too in my town. Employment wise things are looking bleak. Dosen't help when you hear that a local factory has just employed a sixty three year old eastern european!!!!!! I honestly think there will be riots eventually what is wrong with this government??

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

Hi All,

There's a couple of "cowboys" in our town:

One rides around in an old SKODA

The other has an old CITROEN VAN

AND they both wield a "BOGBRUSH"

 

David

[Paul Coleman]

Davew

It is annoying when you see the cheapskate cleaner being paid same as you.

To drive a private car for work needs the correct insurance not just the social domestic that we all have, this is dodged by the cheapskate brigade and if they have an accident they are not insured and will pay the costs both financially and in the court for driving while not insured.

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

You will find if you ask a policeman that any vehicle used for business must have the owners name and address somwehre on the vehicle, like on an old bus or a burger van its always written in some corner this is so the public can claim liability if there is ever an accident etc. Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken.

Then the fact of hiding from customers if there are complaints no name on van custy cant find them, its the same as the mobile number only on a van, no address to be traced ,any problems dump the sim card.Just watch rogue traders and see why they use un-marked cars.

Now im sure i will be told thats all they can afford well i agree cos i had an old banger for a while but still put my name and home number on he boot with those cheap sticky letters from Halfords.Now i have all our vans boldly sign written see my post "sign writing"

And if they do not clean frames they are GLASS CLEANERS not window cleaners.

Do not despair they soon either shape up or give up, in our seven years we have seen them all come and go as our reputation for quality has continued to grow.

Do it right, do it legal and you will rise to the top,

Cheers

Gordon

When I started, I used a private car (a hatchback) for traditional window cleaning.  The insurer was quite happy to add "in connection with the owner's business" to the social and domestic clause.  There was no extra charge for this.
According to something else you say, I have been working illegally since October 1991.  I have never had a vehicle sign written yet.  I do intend to do so with my current vehicle in the near future though.  I always thought my number plate was sufficient I.D. for the vehicle in the event of a claim.  It's possible that you may be right over this issue and that the law is an obscure one but I think we would have heard more about it by now if you were right.  Just for the record, I have always worked totally legit.  I have always given the taxman and the N.I. what they are due and I have always carried public liability insurance (though I don't think that's a legal requirement even though IMO it should be).
Although I may not have my contact details on my van, every customer has been given my name, address, contact telephone numbers, and my email address.  I even had a fax number at one point.  I don't think you should be stereotyping people just because they don't have a sign written vehicle.
Do you have shares in a sign writing company by any chance?  

[macmac]

OOh err I've started something here, sorry guys. I'm not trying to get at anyone - just airing my observations. I just had one of my worst weeks earnings wise so am a little grouchy don't start the earnings debate again please.

It's debate dave, & a bit of a reality check, that should silence some 'deleted' & bring a breath of fresh air. I don't mind being un-popular (with the wfp millionaire brigade), just prefere to be realistic & honest to the people that need good, honest advise when it counts. many people make big financial & sometimes life-changing decisions based on advise from this forum & that, to me, is very, very important! of-course everybody's circumstances are different, & some will make mega-bucks & be very succsesfull but it's about the norm, the majority of peoples circumstances, evening things out & realistic expectations. After all, we are only window cleaners. ask yourself- could you be the next prime minister? the answer- maybe yes, it's a possibility, then just think of what would be involved in this persual of such a task! when the odds are probably 100000000000000000000000000000  to 1 against you. again, realistic expectations.

tony

[Paul Coleman]

To put it another way, there have been loads of claims on here of vast earnings and no doubt some of you are very successful. However having met and made friends with several cleaners in my area there are no obvious signs of wealth from any of them' so either they can't make much money, don't work hard enough,or prefer to give out an image of poverty. Unfortunately I wonder if it is most likely the first option. I have been fortunate to have saved from a previous lifetimes employment. Surely any cleaner of any substance would want the best tools available for his trade.
I think there can be a lot of hype on this site and any newbie (like myself) needs to be aware it's not a shortcut to earning a fortune - you really have to work at it and it takes time to buid. How many other services have the customer bugger off on holiday and not have the decency to call?

I can't speak for others but I can make some excellent money over the short haul (several days).  However, that often means that I run out of work.  I also still have a lot of work that could do with a substantial price increase.  OK so over a five day period, if I did ALL of my best work and worked hard, I could probably top £1200.  To assume that I have the workload or even the energy or the desire to earn that EVERY five days would be a complete nonsense though.  Indeed, I currently work a 6 week cycle for most of my work and for two of those weeks I have no work to do except just building my business up a little more.

[Paul Coleman]

Davew

It is annoying when you see the cheapskate cleaner being paid same as you.

To drive a private car for work needs the correct insurance not just the social domestic that we all have, this is dodged by the cheapskate brigade and if they have an accident they are not insured and will pay the costs both financially and in the court for driving while not insured.

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

You will find if you ask a policeman that any vehicle used for business must have the owners name and address somwehre on the vehicle, like on an old bus or a burger van its always written in some corner this is so the public can claim liability if there is ever an accident etc. Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken.

Then the fact of hiding from customers if there are complaints no name on van custy cant find them, its the same as the mobile number only on a van, no address to be traced ,any problems dump the sim card.Just watch rogue traders and see why they use un-marked cars.

Now im sure i will be told thats all they can afford well i agree cos i had an old banger for a while but still put my name and home number on he boot with those cheap sticky letters from Halfords.Now i have all our vans boldly sign written see my post "sign writing"

And if they do not clean frames they are GLASS CLEANERS not window cleaners.

Do not despair they soon either shape up or give up, in our seven years we have seen them all come and go as our reputation for quality has continued to grow.

Do it right, do it legal and you will rise to the top,

Cheers

Gordon

When I started, I used a private car (a hatchback) for traditional window cleaning.  The insurer was quite happy to add "in connection with the owner's business" to the social and domestic clause.  There was no extra charge for this.
According to something else you say, I have been working illegally since October 1991.  I have never had a vehicle sign written yet.  I do intend to do so with my current vehicle in the near future though.  I always thought my number plate was sufficient I.D. for the vehicle in the event of a claim.  It's possible that you may be right over this issue and that the law is an obscure one but I think we would have heard more about it by now if you were right.  Just for the record, I have always worked totally legit.  I have always given the taxman and the N.I. what they are due and I have always carried public liability insurance (though I don't think that's a legal requirement even though IMO it should be).
Although I may not have my contact details on my van, every customer has been given my name, address, contact telephone numbers, and my email address.  I even had a fax number at one point.  I don't think you should be stereotyping people just because they don't have a sign written vehicle.
Do you have shares in a sign writing company by any chance?  

And just to add to my post, I did claim some benefits for the first few weeks of W/Cing as well.  I was totally open with the benefits office about my then meagre earnings and they were so low at first that I qualified for a little bit of help.  This was in spite of being single.  The money wasn't much but it wasd a huge help to me as I started W/Cing on the back of a spell of unemployment.

[steve k]

mac...I earn more because the work is done quicker and the hours are filled with more work...
I cull quite a bit of work every 6 months or so and now pretty much have a mainly WFP round of houses that are great with WFP and the bits of trad that are enjoyable...all are good payers and can be got through pretty quickly.
I don`t work full time anymore but earn a full time wage...subsidised by powerwashing driveways.

I will not be a long termer in window cleaning...I am always watching out for the next step up so to speak and if it improves the quality of mine and my familys lives, then I will move on...no hesitation or look back.
Life is not staying on the same roundabout..I am always willing to try out a faster one or even a slower one occassionally...you just have to make the leap.

[macmac]

mac...I earn more because the work is done quicker and the hours are filled with more work...
I cull quite a bit of work every 6 months or so and now pretty much have a mainly WFP round of houses that are great with WFP and the bits of trad that are enjoyable...all are good payers and can be got through pretty quickly.
I don`t work full time anymore but earn a full time wage...subsidised by powerwashing driveways.

I will not be a long termer in window cleaning...I am always watching out for the next step up so to speak and if it improves the quality of mine and my familys lives, then I will move on...no hesitation or look back.
Life is not staying on the same roundabout..I am always willing to try out a faster one or even a slower one occassionally...you just have to make the leap.

That's fine & honest steve, the hours are filled with more work, which ofcourse, you have gained or put extra work into canvassing etc. as you will appreciate, your wfp system did not go out on its own & create the extra work for you & hand you it on a plate the very next day

I also dont work full time but earn a full time wage but would never bragg un-thoughtfully to other people (sometimes less experienced than me) that to be in this possition is easily acheivable, especially just by going wfp, because if i did, i would be very, very selfish towards other peoples massively varying circumstances & would feel that there would be a massive scope to miss-lead them with rose-tinted views of my own circumstances.

tony

[brett walker]

Image the chap with the brand new shinny van thats got top of the range wfp'ing verses the chap with the ford orion does by no means mean the shinny van man is going to do a better job than the orion man, just like the backpack verses the top of the range wfp kit as long as your water is pure your technique is right your customer is happy.

Ive known window cleaners been going 20yrs and window cleaners that are just starting up all that can be said is do a professional job and you will always have a business.
Yes for some people and customers image does pay a big part

Personally i would love a big shinny new van and top of the range kit but cant afford one as i have 5 kids and 1 due next week  so i'll stick with my little yellow van  
Family comes first before new toys

Brett

[pjulk]

Davew said -

Even the established cleaners are running around in beat up escort vans

They have sense why pay thousands of pounds for a van when a dirt cheap one will probably last a few years anyway.
Then scrap it and get another.

Davew said -

I've gone to the trouble of investing about ten times the money or more with a signwritten van, wfp system etc and am hardly snowed under with work

Looking the part does not guarantee get more work.

Davew said -

Another grumble - why is it that people pay for a cleaner but arn't bothered with their frames being absolutely disgustingly filthy? Beats me!

Frame take more time for a traditional window cleaner so unless the customer is prepared to pay more for the extra time taken why do them.
You can knock out a few more jobs each day if you didn't do any frame's.

gordonswindows Said -

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

If you have a full workload why have signs there not needed unless you want more work.

gordonswindows Said -

Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken

As already been said public liability is not a legal requirement
Employers liability is though.


Paul

[pjulk]

i have 5 kids and 1 due next week

Brett i think you need more work as it seems you have to much time on your hands. 

Paul

[NWH]

What are some of you blokes gonna be doing when we have a good spell of weather,lots of you have caught up and the weathers been rubbish,i`m about a week behind.