[eddie d]

 
im struggling to see how its possible to make it pay :
£15000  loan for van & poles ect repayments  £340.00 pm
petrol                                                             £250pm
van insurance                                                £100pm
employers liability                                         £100pm
equipment                                                     £100pm
car tax                                                           £20 pm
clothing                                                         £20pm
holiday pay                                                   £166.66
wages                                                           £2000pm
tatal                                                             £3096 + vat  =£3637.8 break even

therefore you need a worker to do 1000 per week to make a profit of around 400 .
this seems a waste of time and effort to me and i dont know how you employers make it pay .or have i goyt it all wrong as usual .

[Alex Wingrove]

why are you paying for employers insurance, pay for them to sub contract from you, wouldn't that be cheaper?

that way they are self employed and then you dont have to worry about a thing, but i heard there are some new stringent rules coming in over sub contracting or having anyone working for you

[eddie d]

alex /if i supply the van ,and work then they are employed if i like it or not .and employers liability is necessary by law .im trying to see how i can make it pay legitmately and competitivly .
i can contract out and i do but its not always ideal as they generally turn up to your jobs with thier sign written van .and if you want a decent subby you can end up with a  very small piece of the pie .
i know people do it but how does it add up .??/

[Trevor Knight]

im struggling to see how its possible to make it pay :
£15000  loan for van & poles ect repayments  £340.00 pm
petrol                                                             £250pm  (we work on £40 per week = £173 p/m)
van insurance                                                £100pm
employers liability                                         £100pm (try www.assureuk.co.uk they may get you a better quote)
equipment                                                     £100pm
car tax                                                           £20 pm
clothing                                                         £20pm (what is £240 per annum for an employee cover?? thats a lot of money for 1 guy?)
holiday pay                                                   £166.66
wages                                                           £2000pm
tatal                                                             £3096 + vat  =£3637.8 break even (you don't need to charge VAT on wages, they are not VAT liable.)
therefore you need a worker to do 1000 per week to make a profit of around 400 .
this seems a waste of time and effort to me and i dont know how you employers make it pay .or have i goyt it all wrong as usual .

Ok, look at it this way.

You make £400 for 1 guy covering ALL the above costs, what if you then employ a 2nd person, he then halves the cost of the insurance, van, petrol, tax, and then you will make more money still.

Also you are making £4,800 p/annum per employee which allows you time to build your business and expand on what you have, giving you the opportunity to employ another person and so on?

Look at the bigger picture and the horizon is brighter.

Regards,

Trev

[Trevor Knight]

why are you paying for employers insurance, pay for them to sub contract from you, wouldn't that be cheaper?

that way they are self employed and then you dont have to worry about a thing, but i heard there are some new stringent rules coming in over sub contracting or having anyone working for you

Alex,

Eddie is right, if you sub a guy all of his work and provide all of his equipment etc.. he is classed as an employee

[Alex Wingrove]

don't give him the equipment then

cant you just give him the money to buy it?

[Trevor Knight]

Alex,

you are going round in circles my friend. If you give him the money then you will show that as a tax deductible and he will show it as a start up investment.

The tax man has seen this all before and knows the score.

Even if you found a way of getting him the equipment, a gift for example, he is still getting all his work from you and therefore classed as an employee!

Sorry mate, we have all tried these loopholes and failed.

Still, if you think of a new one we would all be open to suggestions )

[Alex Wingrove]

renting is that technically classed as an employee?

[Trevor Knight]

Again it goes back to how much of his income you provide, if all of his income is from you then he is an employee and there is no getting around it.

Trev

[Alex Wingrove]

lets say 20% is provided from you?

[Trevor Knight]

Thats fine and he is then classed as a bona-fide sub contractor.

Before you go down this route MAKE SURE you check you are not his sole income provider as the onus is on you and not the employee/sub-contractor

[choice.clean]

here is one way around it i've heard off but never tried
be an agency and charge the customer a fee for providing a window cleaner payable by standing order
example £30 per quarter then the customer pays the sub contractor (window cleaner his charge for cleaning the windows) result the money does not show up on your books. its mainly profit you just have to find the cleaners get customer to sign an agreement stating cannot have seperate agreement with window cleaner and vis versa. legally a householder only has to keep a record of payments made to workers on a simple sheet.

if you think this is a far fetched idea i know of a national domestic cleaning company that does just this and franchises all the cleaning out.

[Trevor Knight]

Ok, let me get this right.

You have a customer who pays you a finders fee of say £10 per month (£30 per quarter).

The window cleaner then turns up on who's behalf, the customer or yours?

The customer pays the window cleaner direct a monthly bill (say £10 per clean) and he keeps that money.

Am i right in thinking the customers house is worth £20 a clean, £10 to the w/c and £10 to you as a finders fee?

If so I see what you're saying and in principle it looks like it would work, just not sure how a customer would feel operating a 2 payment schedule?

Learn something new every day,

[Ian Rochester]

Eddie your figures appear way off the mark, are you saying you are paying £1200 for your van insurance and spending £100/month on gear, if so then you need to shop around.

Obviously the more staff you take on, the cheaper the individual costs are.

You have wages down as £2000/month (£24K PA) what are you basing that figure on.

Employing staff is a big decision, a big responsibility, and often a big headache, however it can also reap big rewards and gives you security for the future.

If you are self employed, working alone and you break a leg or worse, unless you have very very good health cover, you will not be bringing anything in.  If you have staff working for you they are constantly bringing income in to the business, whatever you are doing.

The subcontracting works, but only to a level and you would always be looking over your shoulder for the Taxman catching up with you.  If you are going to do it, do it properly and take them on the books.

[eddie d]

hi /i have the wages down as 500 per week .i know that i wont get anyone decent cheaper .and at 100 per day they should value the job .thje van insurance maybe less but at present i am paying 750 with full no claims for any driver over 25.the second vehicle will have 0 no claims .

as far as subbing goes i dont know what you mean about the tax man catching up with me .the guy i sub to has his own work ,veichle and so on
.
trevor
/if i look at the big picture im going to need about maybe 6 vans out to give me an income of 4000 a month .at present i can do that in 4 days  a week comfortably .of course running more than 3 is a job in its self .keeping them busy and so on .
the rewards dont seem great to me .looks as though i may make 20 % of turnover at best
.
mmmmm im starting to get depressed .how am i going to make any money .
i do think that you guys who are making a profit out of employees are doing a great job
 i need some of your pearls .
im just not seeing the big pic .im just seeing a lot of effort with little gain

[macmac]

if you can "comfortably" make 4k per month based on 4 days work per week you're on nearly 50k per year. why the hell would you want to employ anyone & create more stress/hassle

tony

[NWH]

We don`t often agree it seems Mac,but we do this time.

[macmac]

We don`t often agree it seems Mac,but we do this time.

 
just seen NWH as last poster & thought, bloody hell, he's gonna be disagreeing with me again!!
You brought a smile to me this time mate, nice one.

tony

[Trevor Knight]

trevor
/if i look at the big picture im going to need about maybe 6 vans out to give me an income of 4000 a month .at present i can do that in 4 days  a week comfortably .of course running more than 3 is a job in its self .keeping them busy and so on .
the rewards dont seem great to me .looks as though i may make 20 % of turnover at best

Eddie, where are you getting your figures from mate??

If you had 6 vans you would over and above exceed a net profit of £4k

If your earning £4k a month on your own you have a very tidy set up and an extremely good solo round. My suggestion is work an extra day and make even more money and don't worry about the employment route as I feel your letting it get you down?

[eddie d]

i think your right trevor .
im just trying to make something more out of wc than ive already got .im trying to make a buisness rather than a job .
the 4k a month is easily done .i thought we all done that .its arounn 18/25 houses or some contract work .
what i want to do is make 100k

[Davew]

4k a month? I'll have some of that please.

[russ_clark]

1 man 4 k ?
I am doing something wrong then 

[Ian Rochester]

That's not an unreasonable figure, it's equivalent to £200/day, which is what many of you are doing and quite achievable.

[mick hay]

All down to pricing correctly!!!!

I started 1 1/2 yrs ago, im on that already!

[Davew]

Yep Russ on that income you could probably take the whole winter off! Reading some of the threads on here I really think a very large pinch of salt is required. I couldn't come close to that with twelve months of drought. Then the man says he's depressed! Surely this is one big wind up. Factory work pays out eight pounds an hour including bonus in my area. Either there are some very gullable customers out there or some very gullable windowcleaners on this forum.

[eddie d]

davew /there is no bull here .
ive been in this game 20 yrs .i know what im doing on a sole trader basis .
im not depressed with my output .im finding it difficult to grow the buisness beyond a one man ban ,i find that depressing .did you look at my 1st post didnt it add up .
come out with me any day you choose and ill show you how to ahcieve that much .
im not kidding you and neither are the other people on this foram .
there are plenty doing above that as well .

[D woods]

If you price your work at £35 per hour and clean for six hours a day, you will
turnover £210 per day per man if each man works 22 days per month. They will
turnover £4600 per month .

This is turnover and NOT PROFIT do not make the mistake of confusing them.

[gsw]

eddie you have mail

[Moderator David@stives]

David

I know £35.00 can be achievable , but only on the right work and you have to look long and hard for it. To fill a full month with it is way beyond the average window cleaner.

I wish local window cleaners would put there prices up, i cannot even begin to compete with them on the majority of houses in my area so my building pool is a lot smaller than theres.

I quoted 2 small houses last week and quoted £8.00 total of 8 windows on each house, they refused my quote in favour of a guy doing them for £5.00.

While there are still thousands of guys out there working for that sort of price, you will find it a lot harder to build a round like your talking about.

I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs , i think you are operating in a more lucrative pool than most.

Dave

[Mhall]

Your seriously going to pay someone £500.00 per week to work for you. Surely you can get someone for around £220.00, especailly if they are only working 4 days and for 6 hours? Thats £9.16 an hour

I know you could get someone round here for that(manchester), or maybe less!

Why not take on someone younger?

[D woods]

Hi Dave
I am talking about commercial work in London and £35- £55 per is an average price but you have to remember we pay parking costs at £4-£5
per hour and £8 per day con charge. So its not as great as it sounds.

[Moderator David@stives]

Mhall

would you work for £220 a week window cleaning , i certainly wouldnt.

you have to base a working day on 6 hours because in any 8 hour period you would be lucky to actually earn for 6 hours. ie travelling, breaks, chatting etc

D Woods

I would say because of you i am now charging similar prices to you on all my new stuff and still converting some of my old stuff, but i have got more than enough work to be able to do that.

Dave

[Davew]

Lot of Daves on here. I know there is good money in commercial work - if you can get it. But I can't see customers around my area paying or being able to afford to pay the kind of money some are talking about here. Most people know that a window will cost around a pound to clean on domestics I also pride myself on doing a good job. If I could race through the day then maybe I could earn £150 domestic. Maybe more If I could pick up whole streets at a time (very unlikely). I make better money on conservatories and gutter cleans but it's not easy work. There are too many cleaners out there who are cleaning for very low wages for me to corner the market.

[D woods]

Us Dave's should start a new secret society.

[Clive McDonald]

Eddie/Trev, very interesting disscusion. I understand what Eddie is saying and he sets out the problem very well.
At least by setting out the problem you can attempt to solve it.

On the van insurance you may be able to get 2nd on introductory no claims.I did, but I use van 1 for something else.

[Clive McDonald]

Two more things about the calculations.
1. the repayments of £340 are nearly £4000 pa so I Imagine you have borrowed £15,000 over five years for a total repayment of £2000.
But if you can earn £1000 pw, clear your debt, and buy second van etc cash, therefore losing this £340 brake on profitability. Ie turning your £400 bottom line into £740.

2. I agree you have to pay good wages. But if your went job and finish you might be able to pay £400 pw,Ie turning your £740 bottom line into £1,140.

Therefore, in theory, four vans, four grand a month, plus whatever you can earn yourself.I agree though it does look daunting looking at it from your current comfort zone and a lot could go wrong. (employee leaving nicking round etc).

[eddie d]

vgs /i was working the calculations out on the worst case .so i know they can be improved on a bit .
apart from the money side i have worked with maybe 20 people or so in the past 20 yrs and have always been let down .

i do sub to 1 guy at the mo and it works ok .but i basically have to give him the high end work as he works on 300 a day + for 2 men .
the other guy i sub to has dropped me right in it this month after breaking up with his girlfriend ,he couldnt work for a month .

the job i like but turning it into a buisness isnt easy .and the risk reward thing io dont think is worth it  for me .not in this game anyway .

dave woods does well ,as he is a bit of a specialist wc ,absailing and all that .but what he has built up is pretty good .trev seems to have sussed it as well .they should do classes "how to run a sucessfull wc buisness "

im not complaining and not really depressed just frustrated .(only at work  )

[stevekennedy]

£100 a month on gear 

Are we talking window cleaning gear or something "recreational"

What kind of gear are you buying?

You mention a second van. Why not work from the one van? Surely you are covering the work at the moment with the one van?

SUGGESTED BUSINESS PLAN TO SAVE YOU MONEY
Let's say we go with your figures...
Put the worker in the van and just get a runabout for yourself for canvassing etc. As the work starts building, start going with him one day a week until you have enough for both of you to be out there full time. Then get another employee to go with the first one.
By now you are turning over approx £70k. Now you can afford a new van!
Put one employee in each van.
Repeat the above.
Once you have 3 vans each having 2 guys working 4-5 days per week you will be turning over £210k+
Your 40% profit margin will be netting you £82k profit and no manual work.

[Trademark WC]

Hi Eddie,

I personally think that WC really isn't  big business, yes there will always be a few out there making the big bucks. but lets be honest its probably one of the cheapest business set-ups going, which is why our industry is full of cowboys and dole cheats charging stupid prices which in turn undervalue's our customer image as most people think wc are beneath them in society cos they see the battered cars with scabby ladders and then tar all of us with the same brush. This is what kills our prices and earning capabilites to the point where if you do employ the repayment isn't that great compared to the risk elements involved.

If you owned a sparks firm and you got a rewire on a 3 bed house you would be charging say 3-4k you could finish it in 4-5 days (maybe less), wages would be £800, materials £400 plus extras say van all that jazz say £100. that leaves £2200 for the company. Thats alot more than you would earn off 2 wc a week.
Also in the bigger picture if you were succesful and made it to twenty years of service you would be able to sell your name/clients as a real business with value on to a rival and make a tidy sum or semi-retire and just price up jobs and work in the office.

I really feel the same as you and if im honest im at a point now where I don't know if I should jack it all in and move on to a business where the invoice values are alot higher and the margins are easier to work with hopefully making it easier to expand.

I'm only 30 and im really thinking is it worth me putting all my effort in to something that will not grow into a business where I could become semi retired? as that is my ultimate goal.

I was doing 4 story cleans today and it was bloody hard work, I can't see me doing that when im 50 !! .

I maybe wrong or just feeling a bit down today because of the weather but just my 2p worth 

Rob

[NWH]

Take his VAT of that £2200 and then his tax and then take the empolyees tax and nat ins off aswell,that leaves him with say £1600.He has to advertise big time to get constant work like that coming in so you can take the cost of that off the total aswell,he also has to go back and sort out costly problems if they go wrong.He also has agro of going to builders merchants to pick stuff up and can`t do the work if it`s not in stock need i go on it aint all rosy mate.If it`s half desent weather i can earn what he earns all day long without any of that hassle and be home in time for countdown,don`t tar us all with the bucket and sponge brigade cos you couldn`t be any further away from the mark.No offense.

[geoffreyspecht]

eddie watch the aprentice on tv u might learn something

[Trademark WC]

NWH

I think you have not understood my point

Take his VAT of that £2200 and then his tax and then take the empolyees tax and nat ins off aswell,that leaves him with say £1600

You cannot generate that kind of income from two WC employee's, it just won't happen.

He has to advertise big time to get constant work like that coming in so you can take the cost of that off the total aswell

All start up business need to advertise, plus its all offset against your tax ? most work is pulled on thru contacts and builders in the trade so only need to adevertise for a bit.

If it`s half desent weather i can earn what he earns all day long without any of that hassle and be home in time for countdown

I'm talking about employing and building a business not individual earnings - my whole point is that wc is more suited for a one man out fit and its hard to expand because its so hard to get decent staff and when you do they leave because its so easy to start up on yer own because of low start up and overheads.

don`t tar us all with the bucket and sponge brigade cos you couldn`t be any further away from the mark.No offense.

I wasn't tar`ing anyone, just stating the facts. you ask the average joe on the street to tell what they picture in there mind when you say window cleaner !!
I have only been wc for 5 years and have worked only commercial work in uniform new vans and all that and they still look down on us.


Basically what im trying to say is that when a builder or a some kind of profession turns up round someones house they know they gonna be paying out big bucks but when a wc turns up they expect to pay peanuts? why is that?.

rob

[NWH]

In NO WAY was i having a go at you in person but what your saying is completly wrong in certain ways,your saying that there is no way that 2 wcs can earn £1600 between them in a week that in itself is rubbish,and that`s a fact.I don`t know what kind of work you`ve been doing it sounds to me like you`ve been working for a firm that either gives you no idea what your earning them or your being misled some other way or by someone,this job is totally dependent on what type of work you do as to how much you can earn,if your doing 2 up 2 downs allday then your limited to what your going to earn.We have had this on other threads before and the answer is finding the better top end paying work it takes time to get and a lot of leg work has to be done in order to find it,the thing is some of your claims are more or less saying that it is impossible.If your gonna be playing conferance league football then your going to earn conferance league wages,what were all striving for is premiership wages and with time and effort it can be done.I bet if truth be known there are other guys on here that are earning in excess of £4-500 per day and you`ll probobly find it`s only 2 blokes on there own but there not gonna tell you that,who cares if people have this misconception (sorry spelling)of us wcs it dosen`t bother most of us i`m sure,and you`ll probobly find that builders are on a day rate anyway so if i were you i wouldn`t listen to any of the pub gossip a good living can and does get earned from wc and always will AMEN.

[Trademark WC]

Hi NWH

I know your not having a go, and I'm not gonna carry on all night about it as it could go on for ages.

I now work for myself generating over a grand a week on my own, i'm not arguing that point as I do that week in week out, what Im saying is the same as Eddie in the original post that it is extremeley hard to turn a good one man band outfit into a real business.

your saying that there is no way that 2 wcs can earn £1600 between them in a week that in itself is rubbish

Thats not what I said, the example was 3.5k job take out wages and material and you came up with the figure of £1600. meaning that 2 wc employees would have to earn £3100 a week to make it the same comparison. which is near on impossible.

It's not pub talk neither as my friend actually runs his own company and has 10 houses and 4 flats plus his own. I'm not having a dig at wc as Im one myself I'm just hammering out some opinions I have in my head.

None of this is meant to offend just saying what I think?

Rob

[NWH]

If your earning what you say you also have a good business,a business which in the future could easily look to employ staff.Just cos your on your own it dosen`t mean you don`t have a business,you do the hours you want the work you want.

[eddie d]

i know what your saying rob .
the risk reward thing isnt great when it com es to employing .saying that my old man tells me that most buisness makes a return of10/20% after investing millions .
im resigning myself to subbing out a bit of work and doing the best of the rest .
if you have any ideas pass it on

[Moderator David@stives]

Tescos work on 1% profit

[shammy davis jnr]

percentages ,pros and cons ,vat ,sole trader plc it dont mater  if you dont like employing dont do it why not take the chance like us that employ all had to do its hard at times but
its down to you you will know in a few months if its for you our not  there is no easy answer  take me for instance  ive just recently purchaced a 1000ltr thermo well six months ago i would love to be out chasing work for this but my van got rote off for my employes
purchaced a vito down 8 grand just to keep my guys going to jobs which could have covered a new lwb to  fit the thermo in  then had a restructure and found that my out off the way houses /ones i have to travel to added up to a good few weeks work for one guy you know the ones farms big country houses ,so then bought an astra for a employee to cover these down anouther 5 grand  and still a reach and wash in yard doing jack
took few months to get back earning again ,will save for new van and fit off thermo unit in a new van 
then hope fully i can get on with some thing i started six moths ago
never mind the staff holidays ,sick days etc
its murder at times hey but such is life 
make a plan of where you want to be nxt year at this time and if you get half way there your doing well
but 50k one man thats a good round in anyones book
good luck  whatever you decide

[Trevor Knight]

make a plan of where you want to be nxt year at this time and if you get half way there your doing well

Really? I would have to ask a lot of questions as to where it went wrong, was my plan realistic, could I have done better?