[eddie d]

 
im struggling to see how its possible to make it pay :
£15000  loan for van & poles ect repayments  £340.00 pm
petrol                                                             £250pm
van insurance                                                £100pm
employers liability                                         £100pm
equipment                                                     £100pm
car tax                                                           £20 pm
clothing                                                         £20pm
holiday pay                                                   £166.66
wages                                                           £2000pm
tatal                                                             £3096 + vat  =£3637.8 break even

therefore you need a worker to do 1000 per week to make a profit of around 400 .
this seems a waste of time and effort to me and i dont know how you employers make it pay .or have i goyt it all wrong as usual .

[Alex Wingrove]

why are you paying for employers insurance, pay for them to sub contract from you, wouldn't that be cheaper?

that way they are self employed and then you dont have to worry about a thing, but i heard there are some new stringent rules coming in over sub contracting or having anyone working for you

[eddie d]

alex /if i supply the van ,and work then they are employed if i like it or not .and employers liability is necessary by law .im trying to see how i can make it pay legitmately and competitivly .
i can contract out and i do but its not always ideal as they generally turn up to your jobs with thier sign written van .and if you want a decent subby you can end up with a  very small piece of the pie .
i know people do it but how does it add up .??/

[Trevor Knight]

im struggling to see how its possible to make it pay :
£15000  loan for van & poles ect repayments  £340.00 pm
petrol                                                             £250pm  (we work on £40 per week = £173 p/m)
van insurance                                                £100pm
employers liability                                         £100pm (try www.assureuk.co.uk they may get you a better quote)
equipment                                                     £100pm
car tax                                                           £20 pm
clothing                                                         £20pm (what is £240 per annum for an employee cover?? thats a lot of money for 1 guy?)
holiday pay                                                   £166.66
wages                                                           £2000pm
tatal                                                             £3096 + vat  =£3637.8 break even (you don't need to charge VAT on wages, they are not VAT liable.)
therefore you need a worker to do 1000 per week to make a profit of around 400 .
this seems a waste of time and effort to me and i dont know how you employers make it pay .or have i goyt it all wrong as usual .

Ok, look at it this way.

You make £400 for 1 guy covering ALL the above costs, what if you then employ a 2nd person, he then halves the cost of the insurance, van, petrol, tax, and then you will make more money still.

Also you are making £4,800 p/annum per employee which allows you time to build your business and expand on what you have, giving you the opportunity to employ another person and so on?

Look at the bigger picture and the horizon is brighter.

Regards,

Trev

[Trevor Knight]

why are you paying for employers insurance, pay for them to sub contract from you, wouldn't that be cheaper?

that way they are self employed and then you dont have to worry about a thing, but i heard there are some new stringent rules coming in over sub contracting or having anyone working for you

Alex,

Eddie is right, if you sub a guy all of his work and provide all of his equipment etc.. he is classed as an employee

[Alex Wingrove]

don't give him the equipment then

cant you just give him the money to buy it?

[Trevor Knight]

Alex,

you are going round in circles my friend. If you give him the money then you will show that as a tax deductible and he will show it as a start up investment.

The tax man has seen this all before and knows the score.

Even if you found a way of getting him the equipment, a gift for example, he is still getting all his work from you and therefore classed as an employee!

Sorry mate, we have all tried these loopholes and failed.

Still, if you think of a new one we would all be open to suggestions )

[Alex Wingrove]

renting is that technically classed as an employee?

[Trevor Knight]

Again it goes back to how much of his income you provide, if all of his income is from you then he is an employee and there is no getting around it.

Trev

[Alex Wingrove]

lets say 20% is provided from you?

[Trevor Knight]

Thats fine and he is then classed as a bona-fide sub contractor.

Before you go down this route MAKE SURE you check you are not his sole income provider as the onus is on you and not the employee/sub-contractor

[choice.clean]

here is one way around it i've heard off but never tried
be an agency and charge the customer a fee for providing a window cleaner payable by standing order
example £30 per quarter then the customer pays the sub contractor (window cleaner his charge for cleaning the windows) result the money does not show up on your books. its mainly profit you just have to find the cleaners get customer to sign an agreement stating cannot have seperate agreement with window cleaner and vis versa. legally a householder only has to keep a record of payments made to workers on a simple sheet.

if you think this is a far fetched idea i know of a national domestic cleaning company that does just this and franchises all the cleaning out.

[Trevor Knight]

Ok, let me get this right.

You have a customer who pays you a finders fee of say £10 per month (£30 per quarter).

The window cleaner then turns up on who's behalf, the customer or yours?

The customer pays the window cleaner direct a monthly bill (say £10 per clean) and he keeps that money.

Am i right in thinking the customers house is worth £20 a clean, £10 to the w/c and £10 to you as a finders fee?

If so I see what you're saying and in principle it looks like it would work, just not sure how a customer would feel operating a 2 payment schedule?

Learn something new every day,

[Ian Rochester]

Eddie your figures appear way off the mark, are you saying you are paying £1200 for your van insurance and spending £100/month on gear, if so then you need to shop around.

Obviously the more staff you take on, the cheaper the individual costs are.

You have wages down as £2000/month (£24K PA) what are you basing that figure on.

Employing staff is a big decision, a big responsibility, and often a big headache, however it can also reap big rewards and gives you security for the future.

If you are self employed, working alone and you break a leg or worse, unless you have very very good health cover, you will not be bringing anything in.  If you have staff working for you they are constantly bringing income in to the business, whatever you are doing.

The subcontracting works, but only to a level and you would always be looking over your shoulder for the Taxman catching up with you.  If you are going to do it, do it properly and take them on the books.

[eddie d]

hi /i have the wages down as 500 per week .i know that i wont get anyone decent cheaper .and at 100 per day they should value the job .thje van insurance maybe less but at present i am paying 750 with full no claims for any driver over 25.the second vehicle will have 0 no claims .

as far as subbing goes i dont know what you mean about the tax man catching up with me .the guy i sub to has his own work ,veichle and so on
.
trevor
/if i look at the big picture im going to need about maybe 6 vans out to give me an income of 4000 a month .at present i can do that in 4 days  a week comfortably .of course running more than 3 is a job in its self .keeping them busy and so on .
the rewards dont seem great to me .looks as though i may make 20 % of turnover at best
.
mmmmm im starting to get depressed .how am i going to make any money .
i do think that you guys who are making a profit out of employees are doing a great job
 i need some of your pearls .
im just not seeing the big pic .im just seeing a lot of effort with little gain

[macmac]

if you can "comfortably" make 4k per month based on 4 days work per week you're on nearly 50k per year. why the hell would you want to employ anyone & create more stress/hassle

tony

[NWH]

We don`t often agree it seems Mac,but we do this time.

[macmac]

We don`t often agree it seems Mac,but we do this time.

 
just seen NWH as last poster & thought, bloody hell, he's gonna be disagreeing with me again!!
You brought a smile to me this time mate, nice one.

tony

[Trevor Knight]

trevor
/if i look at the big picture im going to need about maybe 6 vans out to give me an income of 4000 a month .at present i can do that in 4 days  a week comfortably .of course running more than 3 is a job in its self .keeping them busy and so on .
the rewards dont seem great to me .looks as though i may make 20 % of turnover at best

Eddie, where are you getting your figures from mate??

If you had 6 vans you would over and above exceed a net profit of £4k

If your earning £4k a month on your own you have a very tidy set up and an extremely good solo round. My suggestion is work an extra day and make even more money and don't worry about the employment route as I feel your letting it get you down?

[eddie d]

i think your right trevor .
im just trying to make something more out of wc than ive already got .im trying to make a buisness rather than a job .
the 4k a month is easily done .i thought we all done that .its arounn 18/25 houses or some contract work .
what i want to do is make 100k