[jeff1]

HI guy's

I was at a very good customer of mine on saturday and she had her brother-in-law there for a visit,
Whilst in conversation with this Guy, I was shocked when he turned to me in front of my customer and said to me,

''Anyway what I want to know is why are you still useing Ladders when they have been banned, and are now 'Illegal for WC's to use'

I explained to him that Ladders have not been banned and he replied ''Well thats what my WC has told me'' My customer replied I hope they haven't I don't want you breaking the Law.

It took me a while to explain to them the new WAHR,
I also asked the brother-in-law if his WC had ladders on the roof of his van? YES he replied, Then how on earth can they be banned like he says I asked? If they are banned then your own WC who told you they were banned is also breaking the law?

My point to all this is if you have to tell your customer about the new WAHR, then please take some time to explain the correct rules that apply to ladders, and not just tell them they are banned and Illegal.

I could have lost a good customer to miss-information.
Just to let you know the area were this WC operates, it is in the Dorchester Somerset Area, so if you guy's from Dorchester are reading this. Please take more care in how you explain the WAHR rules to your customers. information like this can turn into the Chinese wisper.

[windows_chepstow]

Jeff,

I always explain to my customers and have given explanation letters basically saying that working at height is not allowed if there is a practical way to do the job from the ground.

With window cleaning, that's using extention poles or a WFP pole; ladders are a last resort and that window cleaners shouldn't be just 'plonking' them against a wall and climbing without considering the alternatives first.

And Section 6 of the Working at Height Directive states how ladders should be used, when working at height can't be avoided; and I don't know any local window cleaners who comply with this section either.

Basically, in my honest opinion, ladders are effectively banned for routine window cleaning, where a pole (extention or WFP) would suffice.

I don't think I'm wrong, have read the regulations and associated material.

I think I'm just protecting my own business by informing my customers of the regulations.  I'm also sad enough to have taped the two BBC Newsnight programmes, have newspaper cuttings, articles from magazines and THE DIRECTIVE.

I recently won a nice job, a law firm's offices, and I'm sure it's purely because of my knowledge of the Working at Height Directive and my stated compliance of them.

And to be honest, I use the regulations to my own advantage when explaining them to customers.

[AuRavelling79]

Jeff, I don't know what your main method of working is, but I completely agree with what Tosh has said above.

For window cleaning, where a wfp will do the job reasonably well, using ladders is, IMO, against the WAHD. And frankly, that is what I tell my and any prospective customers.

[carlfoster]

I use wfp now, but, I would like to say that I disagree with anyone who says ladders are banned.

Yes, the regs say to use an alternative if possible, and yes, wfp is an alternative. But, wfp is NOT possible for every window cleaner. It took me a long time to eventually set up with wfp. During that time, I had to use ladders. Surely, if you follow the guidelines for safe ladder use, as outlined by the HSE, then you are not braking the HSE regs. After all, why produce a document on how to use ladders if they are banned?

[windows_chepstow]

Carl,

Putting it in the simplest terms I can, the rules say that WORKING AT HEIGHT IS TO BE USED AS A LAST RESORT.

So, when it's 'last resort time', because you're faced with a large flat roof or something, then yes, you can work at height, and even maybe use a ladder.

So in those circumstances, Section 6 of the Working at Height Directive then goes onto say how that ladder should be used; ie tied off, a ladder stabilisation device or any other method of similar effectiveness.

Hey, I'm not against anyone using ladders or bungie jumping, parachuting or paragliding; whatever.

But what I would dislike is for anyone to tell a customer of mine that I'm talking out of my bottom, and just citing 'rules' 'cos I'm scared of ladders.

I can back anything up that I say with the directive and other stuff, but at the end of the day, if I can gain a small advantage over my competitors who're still using ladders as a first choice of access, then I'll use it.

Don't blame me, blame HSE!

[JohnL]

No Tosh, blame the interpretation of it.

Rules and regs are written by civil servants and the likes of no-faces in europe. Its up to the courts to interperate them and as always until then the regs are so woolly that the actual meaning is lost although the intent is rapidly seized upon.

JohnL.

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

DON'T START THIS STUPID ARGUEMENT AGAIN!!!!!

WFP or LADDERS?
Doesn't matter so long as you are an Honest and safety conciouse window cleaner!!

WFP People who go about saying ladders are banned and putting down ladder using window cleaners are, in my opinion, totaly OUT OF ORDER.  Just the same as the "Cowboy" who goes round telling your customers you've packed in!!

Please let's leave it to the smart arsed lawyers to try and outlaw ladder users and us:

GET ON WITH
WINDOW CLEANING

David

[DaveBrown]

To my way of thinking - WFP IS a practicable alternative. We earn enough/can charge enough to pay for it and it does the job well. So for the majority of window cleaning (and ladders do have their place) - it should be used as a matter of course. There isn't really an arguement, its so much safer.

Dave

[pjulk]

I just tell my customers that as i have a ladderless window cleaning system that this will be used to comply with the WAH regulations.

I have had a couple of people say to me they heard that ladders are getting banned.
I said to the that they are not banned but should only be used where there is no alternative method.
And as i have an alternative method ladders will only be used for access


Paul

[AuRavelling79]

I just tell my customers that as i have a ladderless window cleaning system that this will be used to comply with the WAH regulations.

I have had a couple of people say to me they heard that ladders are getting banned.
I said to the that they are not banned but should only be used where there is no alternative method.
And as i have an alternative method ladders will only be used for access


Paul

Well put Paul - and I would add that even if you didn't have an alternative but one was reasonably available and you refused to use it then you would be outside the WAHD rules.

Also -  I honestly beleive this - if I use a ladder for a job and I have/cause an accident that results in a hefty claim (£10's of thousands and upwards) then my insurer's will use WAHD to say that I am working outside the law and I or my family will get lumbered with the debt.

[Sunshine Cleaning]

I blame the customers. I tell them just as Tosh has, they listen with one ear, but when they come to repeat it they cant remember what you said, and simplify it to a lader ban.

We call it selective memory in our house.

[chris@c.m.s]

I'm the same as Paul,  I tell any new customers that I've got wfp to comply with new and increasing legislation on wahd, and that now I have wfp I would need a good excuse for not using it if I'm caught.      

[Sir Squeaky]

I just tell them not to be so silly, and they should stop listening to other window cleaners.  :