[Dynafoam]

Derek,

I do try to use the 'generic' term, but since the question was about a specific range, I allowed my self to be tripped up on this occasion.

DP,

Believing in minimum residue cleaning, I have been using fresh water rinsing - though certainly not exclusively - for many years. This with several 'conventional' pre-sprays and with products such as 'Spitfire'.

On one occasion several years ago, whilst cleaning a very dirty nightclub carpet, I accidentally used this method when an assistant forgot to put the Liquid Woolsafe in the tank. The results were indistinguishable.

John.

[Ian Gourlay]

How can you be sure that the Micro Splitter cleaning solution is hitting evey part of the carpet.

When will Microsplitters be available in Janitorial Suppliers, hence avoiding carriage and VAT charges.

When will they be made in the UK. Thus avoiding pollution  as they travel across boarders?

[Mark Betts]

Ian

You would still have to pay VAT at your janitorial suppiers.

Mark

[Ken Wainwright]

Ian

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the One Step brand and possibly Easy Step too are both of UK origin. One Step is certainly available from many janitorial suppliers.

As for total coverage, part is down to the application skills of the technician (E-W then N-S) and the rest is down to the agitation. By following the manufacturers instructions, I've never had an application problem, regardles of brand. The same application problems arise with conventional detergents.

I'd like to raise the question "Why do detergent pre-sprays require detergent rinses?" My belief is that the  detergent rinse is to remove the not so free rinsing pre-spray rather than the soil. After all, as a good rule of thumb, what chance of removing soil does a rinse solution of a lesser pH and concentration than the pre-spray have?   As far as I know, nobody has ever said what a detergent rinse is for, it's just one of those things we used to accept as a necessary part of the system. Some detergents as well as the microsplitters are now free rinsing, so will all other pre-sprays eventually follow suit?

Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[strakercleaning]

Ian,
I am sure that 'direct from manufacturer' is cheaper than through a middle man.
As for crossing borders.............what is completly made in England, in the Carpet Cleaners arsenal ?  

[Dynafoam]

Ian

I'd like to raise the question "Why do detergent pre-sprays require detergent rinses?"
Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

Ken,

I'm sure you are correct in your assumption that some detergent pre-sprays do require some detergency in the rinse, however that is not always the case. I have for years been using fresh water rinsing with certain  'conventional' pre-sprays.

However, if you consider an average domestic lounge, for example, when using traditional treatments, with good cleaning practice, only a small percentage of the carpet will receive any pre-spray - where it is actually required.  The bulk of the carpet would only have the machine solution and the suction of the machine to remove soil. This is where the in-tank detergent is required even if the pre-treatment chemical is free-rinsing.

In the case of micro-splitters and specifically formulated pre-treatments such as 'Spitfire', the entire carpet is pre-treated, which makes the fresh-water rinse a practical proposition.

As I mentioned elsewhere earlier today, I have cleaned very heavily soiled nightclub carpets, with conventional pre treatments and only a fresh-water rinse - but every square inch required pre-treatment.

John.

[Len Gribble]

I have to agree with Chris on this, Ken is correct One Step is available via the Jan supplier how ever no discount but I get 20% off on another brand, will call in to see him and see what the score is on cc products.

Len

[Derek]

John

You last post raises yet another issue... many people use a prespray for the traffic lane areas only therefore your theory would apply.
On a personal note I have 'always' pretreated the whole item I am cleaning in order that the finished job is uniform in appearance and feel.

I was always led to believe that the acidic rinses were devised to...

1.  lower the pH of the higher alkaline pretreatment chemicals.

2.  assist in the removal of the pre-treatment detergent residues.

They certainly leave the fibres softer to the touch than if they were not rinsed in this way or if an alkaline detergent is used through the machine.

Maybe I just fell for the salesman's chat lines!

Derek

[Dynafoam]

Derek,

I cannot disagree with any of that,  except for use of the same pre-treatment for the entile carpet.

Uniformity of the finished result is, I believe, an essential aim. In practice, this is not often achievable since the wear and tear on the traffic lanes and shoe-shuffle areas render this an imposibility.

The treatment of non-traffic areas with a product designed to break down traffic grease, I consider to be more than pointless - fibres not 'protected' by a layer of grease may be more prone to any detremental effects of the TLC. Where the pH of the soiling is lower, higher pH pre-treatments will leave a lower residue pH.

I have used acidic rinses for the same reasons you described as I think the 'feel' and 'bounce' of the pile are as important as the 'eye' of the end result, but if the in-tank solution is something like S781 Liquid Woolsafe, I would consider them superfluous.

Rightly or wrongly, my aim has always been to keep the pH of the carpet as close to the desired end pH as possible, throughout the cleaning process.

Regards,

John.

PS. I cannot see a seasoned professional such as yourself falling for any salesmans' chat lines, no matter how slickly delivered

[mark_roberts]

personally I pre-spray the whole room.  You can't see the all the soil so not pre-sraying an area may cause problems with wick back and poor visable results.

I only use in tank detergents for extra cleaning power on dirty carpets and they do make a great difference.  I was under the impression that quality pre-sprays and detergents from the big name manufactureers did not leave dirt attracting residues when used according to manufacturer instructions.  But then again can we believe them?

On all the training courses I've been too NCCA, IICRC, Prochem etc there does not seem to be a concencus of opinion on the issue of rinsing with detergents.  Some say yes no problem others say to rinse and then rinse again with an acid rinse or mist.  Confusing esp to newcomers.

thanks
Mark

[Derek]

Hi

Many people use the low pH (acidic) rinse solutions purely as a neutraliser...so when self neutralising chemicals came on the scene they didn't feel the need for them any longer.

One also has to consider that a previous cleaner may have been using a very high pH chemical through the machine.... we don't want to pick up and add to his problems do we?

Low pH rinses also assist in removing any potential residual deposits that may be left behind.

With regards to pre-treating all the carpet I do take into consideration 'tracking' from the main areas into the lightly used areas plus all the airborne soiling etc.

At my time of life change takes some thinking about...something about tricks and 'old' dogs I believe.

Cheers
Derek

[Dynafoam]

Derek, you old dog,

If your old tricks work well, as I'm sure they do, you need few new ones  

Our approaches are, I suspect not so different. There are occasions when I would use several different pre-treatments (other than spotters) on one carpet, but very few where I would use the same one (micro-splitters excepted) on the entire carpet.

This old dog has always believed in treating each individual area of carpet as it requires.

John.

[strakercleaning]

My preference would be to prespray traffic lanes and treat individual marks then rinse whole area.
Surely that would ensure an even result throughout, as the problem areas will come up to the same standard as the lightly soiled areas.
My belief is that treating the whole area with the same chemical will still leave a darker impression on the heavy soiled areas, such as draught marks and traffic lanes.
With Microsplitters, i tend to spend longer brushing into the heavy soil and then find an even finish ..... did just that on white wool loop carpets today with cola stains and heavy traffic lanes.............perfect finish in one swift operation.
BOY...............I'M GOOD

[Derek]

Guys

I guess it won't be long before someone realises I am up for the wooden s p o o n award! I had to split that the checker doesn't like it
a.k.a 'The Halliday award'

To continue.... The 'lovely' people of Leicestershire must be unique as I find so often that I 'need' to pre-treat the whole area and the end results certainly justify it.

Its the same when cleaning furniture I always clean the whole in the same manner.... by doing this I have discovered on numerous occasions that the most soiled areas are the sides and back through filtration.

Cheers
Derek

[Ian Gourlay]

What did you use to do before these wonderful Micro Splitters came out.

Did you Pre Spray?

Clean With prefered cleaning Soultion.

Refil Tank and Rinse Carpet throughly with plain water or an acid rinse?

[Dynafoam]

Ian,

There is not a short answer to your question.

For one thing my methods have varied greatly over 38-39 years, so I'll confine the answer to the last five years or so.

I did use the method you detailed on rare occasions. Always the requirements of the carpet have affected the choice of chemicals applied and therefore the methodoligy.

Commonly one or more pre-sprays were used as required, they were agitated, then rinsed out with either plain water or water with added rinse agents. Sometimes parts of a carpet were rinsed with plain water, then an in-tank addative was used for other parts.

The addatives could be non-detergent acidic rinses, detergent or simply sanitisers.

The aim was always to put the minimum amount of product onto the carpet as a pre-requisite to leaving the minimum amount behind.

John.

[nick.solution]

Hi Guys

One step is produced in Germany/Holland not in the UK  Easy step is produced is the States, Carraige charge on Solution products is only on small orders thus keeping the price as low as possible for many people, at this stage supplying through janitorial suppliers would on serve in putting the price up to the end user.

Best regards Nick