[Ian_Giles]

I am WFP as everyone knows, but I think Trad is the more skillful of the two methods.
There are several elements to working trad; applicator, squeegee, scrim/microfibre, differing techniques for inside work, or for different types of window and glass and so on.

You need a good understanding of the tech side of WFP, but the job itself, though it doea require skill, is by and large one single technique.

If trad was just say....washing glass with an aplicator it would be different.

I'm not including ladders or ladder use, that isn't window cleaning.
Equally I'm not including dragging the hose around or manouvering the WFP pole about.
All I mean is the cleaning of the windows either trad or WFP, and trad is that little more complex.

Within a couple of months you can be skilled at either method of course, and as time passes and you hone that skill further and further you get faster and more experienced.
Window cleaning is a semi skilled job but it does take a fair bit of knowledge to understand all the nuances of window cleaning.


Ian

[JohnL]

Good reply Ian   

JohnL

[neil100]

Traditional window cleaning takes more skill by far then wfp.

It takes a lot longer to master the art of w/c trad then it does wfp.

Its not just a case of mastering the art of w/c, the weather has a far greater impact on trad cleaning then it does with wfp. You have to for example clean a window diffrently in the baking hot sun then when the tempreture is near frezzing. In the summer the glass is easier to clean because of the heat and how quickly the water Evaporates off the glass. When its very cold you have a Tendency to leave  more lines. The more skifull w/c will have very little Detailing to do.

Then their is the wind,it makes a massive diffrence to trad cleaning again, You have to work with the wind not against it. All these Variables have more effect on a trad w/c.

Though Ian never touched on it, Ladder work is part and parcel of the Trad set up, That takes real skill, being able to place a ladder at the correct hight and angle first time, The climbing and decending of a ladder, carrying a ladder on your shoulder or  moving fully extended ladders from window to window are real skills.

Its also haveing the confidence and ability to clean a window at speed up a ladder, that requires balance and coordination.

Dont get me wrong you need some skills with wfp, but not as many as a trad w/c. I also know which is the harder to master.

I do think its a shame that many may come into w/cleaning through the wfp route who will never master the art of traditional w/c.

Nel.

[groundhog]

Paul you must be very slow at trad then   Propole my seven year old son can clean downstairs windows with a mini pole, but he struggles with a squeegee

[P®oPole™]

Paul you must be very slow at trad then   Propole my seven year old son can clean downstairs windows with a mini pole, but he struggles with a squeegee

Groundhog you cant even clean a window with a mini pole without getting spots. 

[groundhog]

Propole when did you last see a window that I have cleaned? You haven't, so don't critisise my work, at least I rinse them properly   I found wfp easy from day one, I just don't like it, its trad for me

[Sir Squeaky]

Traditional window cleaning takes more skill by far then wfp.

It takes a lot longer to master the art of w/c trad then it does wfp.

Well there goes the one person I felt sure would say wfp....

Looks like your own your own Propole......

[P®oPole™]

Firstly let me clarify all this talk about ladders and other skills, lets not wonder of this, put a standard window infront of a total novice with no experince at all. Trad he will allways to a better job. He will know straight away what needs to be done, which is simple dolly the window blade it off and detail. His technique maybe rubbish but I garuantee it would look better than the wfp window he done because of the knowledge one must know about wfp cleaning to make good a job, sash windows, vents, georgian, quater lights. Many things can effect the finish.


Groundhog you have said before that you go around checking your work after wfp, then correct with trad, is this because you cant use wfp properly and  efficiently like you also say its to much hassle on domestic. From what i work out wfp is a skill you have not mastered yet, why dont you start asking questions on here.

USING IT EFFICIENTLY IS KEY

Also use the correct methods mate if you want optimum results, which is RINSING BRUSH ON!!


ProPole

Squeaky you make me laugh, your a funny man.  

[neil100]

Did I suprise you their Squeaks?

Its just my honest and humble opinion which method I think is harder to master.

Even my freinds who have switched to wfp all share the same view that trad cleaning takes more skill. And we are talking about 150yrs experince in w/c between us.  A lot of people underestimate how much skill is involved in useing a ladder. And you cannot take ladder work out of the this thread baecause you have to use a ladder to reach the windows, the same with a pole.

I could hand over my pole to a customer and let him have a go at cleaning an upstairs window, But their is no way I would let him go up my ladder to clean a window.

I have you ever watched somebody carry a ladder who is not used to carrying one. It normally takes Two people. I watched a neighbour climb is ladder last week to clean his gutters out. I had to go in, he looked like he was going to fall off. It was painfull.

For me taking everything involved trad wins hands down.

Dont get too excited Squeaks I am not saying I prefer trad w/c but I do think its more skill orientated. You can allways feel smug that you are chosing the more skifull option in w/cleaning.

Nel.  

[P®oPole™]

If ladder work goes into it then presuming its not high, usaul first floor domestic stuff its still not greatly skillfull, lets talk about big poles or even 30ft and above do you feel comtable giving someone a big pole and letting them lose, I doubt it, because I certainly wouldnt.

You have to be very compitient to operate big poles, fair enough if its your own work your going to be carefull. But someone else wont care, they will whip poles around not looking at the brush, what if they smash a window or trip, what about potentially leaky windows, what about setting up times, what about hoses everywere, all skills. Many many more than using a squeggee and ladder, anyone can clean windows trad and wfp, trad skills dont take long to achive.

You can look at it both ways, and  there skillfull in diffrent ways, I admit there is no skill in gettin a pole out splashing a bit of water and done. But its the whole package aswell. Im undecided about this one. I do know and im sure all of you would agree, a standard window infront of some random person with no w/c experience what so ever would clean it better trad than wfp.

ProPole

[GRAHAM.K]

I used to work with an older fella who could strip down a diesel engine                ( gardiner ,perkins etc.) into bits, machine parts if necessary and rebuild the engine. Same with gear boxes , hub reductions anything mechanical. because he had no qualifications he was paid as semi skilled labour. most so called skilled mechanics today probably have at the most , 50% of his ability and knowledge.
As with everything in todays Tony Blair land everybody has to be an achiever. Well sorry, we just clean windows and that is the reality. its not difficult whatever method you use. I've shown countless guys how to do the job and almost without exception after a couple of weeks the've been up and running.

I think people are confusing learning a technique as opposed to a skill.

A skill is drawing on knowledge from a multitude of sources gained from the slow learing curve  of an apprenticeship or similar disipline.

A technique is  repeating the same motion or action so it is done efficiently and economically. thats window cleaning.

 Now, running your own business and being disiplined , dealing with safety issues,customers, tax returns, canvassing, etc ,etc, thats what sets us apart from the average 9 to 5 joe turning up for the same old deal week in week out for a wage which he has very little control over. Now thats skill knowing that  every week you and you alone make your way in the world.

Beholden to no one, independent and free (for the most part) of the politics that are such a bind as an employee.

enjoy

[ronaldo]

Great answer Graham.

[P®oPole™]

Yea, very well said Graham.

people are confusing learning a technique as opposed to a skill.

[Peter Fogwill]

Propole when did you last see a window that I have cleaned? You haven't, so don't critisise my work, at least I rinse them properly   I found wfp easy from day one, I just don't like it, its trad for me

Groundhog you just told us all on the A trad/wfp challenge! (For Ian, Squeaky,Tosh) thread that you can't use a water fed pole, you said you had to put it right with trad.
Maybe that is where Propole got his information.

Peter Fogwill

[Moderator David@stives]

Speak for yourself , i am highly skilled in  my job,

I would challenge any lesser experienced window cleaner than me to know any where as many tricks, shortcuts etc as me.

If the windows were on a conveyor belt you may well have a point, but in reality they are at all different heights and degrees of dificulty and the skilled window cleaner will tackle them a lot easier than someone who merely knows the technique of q squeegie

Dave

[groundhog]

Propole I doubt that you ever go back to check your work, anyone who uses wfp if they are honest will tell you that you cannot guarantee a perfect finish everytime, that is why I always like to check my wfp work after I finish, so that I can put right any spots or runs ect, its because I take pride in my work not because of bad technique. I was taught the basic technique by the people at Omnipole, and I think you will agree that they know what they are talking about, especially Glyn who has over 30 years experiance in window cleaning! By the way he says to rinse brush off its common sense really

[sussex187]

I suppose there would have to be considering your cleaning windows with dirty water!

      its the blade that cleans the windows not the water

[dai]

It depends I suppose on what we think of as skilled. I worked in the engineering industry setting up computor controlled machine tools. When I finished the job all that the operator had to do was load componants and press a button.
This was classed as a highly skilled trade.
In fact the only skill involved was learning how to do it. It's the same with mechanics, they only use a spanner or screwdriver most of the time, it's what they know that makes them skilled.
To me a skilled guy is someone that has mastered  the perfect co-ordination between brain,eye and hand. A carpenter or stone mason comes to mind.
The most skilled guy ever? Well I reckon Michael Angelo.
A perfect blend of brain, eye, hand and artistic vision. How many guys could sculpture a David/ I bet he would have made a great window cleaner too. Dai