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shaun_pearson

  • Posts: 104
read this (prices / training)
« on: April 22, 2004, 02:58:21 am »
hi guys

there has been lots said about pricing lately and its a topic which stirs debate, which is good. there is definately the feeling that if you charge low your quality of work must be low. why? a low price does not have to mean low quality just as a high price does not guarantee high quality of workmanship. surely the focus should be on the standard of work carried out rather than the price, if we focus on other peoples prices so much can we expect anything else from the customers?

which brings me to my point,  there are many different training courses on offer from various companies and organisations, some good some not.  i took a training course when starting out in the business, it cost £150 and was not much more than a sales pitch. i was very disappointed in the actual training given which is not a good introduction to the industry for a newstart.

my idea is of a standard training course which is recognised throughout the industry and beyond. training is a very profitable area for the companies who supply it so would they be prepared to give up this profit for the good of the industry? they may not have to, but i do believe that formal training should be in the hands of a non profit making organisation.

so who is going to administer this training? well thats for us to decide through discussion and debate. are the ncca the right choice for the job? possibly as they already have the infrastructure in place, but i do believe that it would have to be available to parts of the uk, maybe in the form of a travelling training course which visits the various regions of the country annually or more, dependant on demand.

with your status as a "certified proffessional carpet cleaner" your customer would be safe in the knowledge that they are dealing with a true proffessional, you could even use it in your advertising. we could get all the major manufacturers, suppliers etc involved and try to develope a standard which all pro c/c's work to.  

so guys what do you think, this is just an idea in its infancy with all the details to be fine-tuned as we see fit , firstly do you think its a good idea in principle.

shaun

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2004, 10:41:53 am »
I have been on various courses with various companies.

And although I would not say that the courses were Sales Pitches as maybee because I was there other machines companies and methods were mentioned.

However this is apprantley why the NCCA wil not reconize some of these courses. A point I think is sad from the New Entrants point of view as they may not know of the NCCA.

Also the companies are often NCCA assosiate members.

What I fail to understand is why as part of that membership the NCCA cannot agree a sylubus with the companies which counts as a standard certificate throughout the industry.

I am know trying to be careful but I feel part of the reason is that the NCCA makes a profit from its training courses and is an important revenue source.

However it might get more members if it went down the other route.

Why pay twice for same information ?

Then we can all move on to advance courses.

On prices I was looking on EXtractas WEb site last night and in its introduction it was suggesting £1.25 to £1.50 a square yard to New Entrants.

Derek

Re: read this
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2004, 11:05:45 am »
Hi Ian

You are correct... the NCCA courses are generic and the only thing on offer is knowledge and expertise... i.e. no equipment/chemicals are sold.

Hopefully the courses do run at a profit, they have to cover the costs... please do bare in mind that the Directors of the NCCA are volunteers and DO NOT receive payment except for any out of pocket expenses.

The NCCA does have supporting Associate members (suppliers etc.) as part of its membership but they are not involved directly with the NCCA training.

The NCCA have offered to supply trainers to their Associates and this has not been taken up for the reasons you mentioned...at their courses they can sell their products... This is their perogative and good business practice.

The other option is IICRC courses which have to be generic (its part of the arrangement)  although they are usually hosted by one of the suppliers linked to the IICRC.

I hope this puts things into perspective.

Regards
Derek

mark_roberts

  • Posts: 1899
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2004, 08:48:30 pm »
The problem isn't adequate good training its getting the customer to recognise the training provider so they will employ the trained cleaner.

Very very very few customers have heard of NCCA or IICRC.  These organisations and the other suppliers who offer  training all need to sit down and develop an in depth training programme and also a procedure policy for carpet cleaning.

This training course needs to be given a certificate or NVQ or similar accreditation so that the customer can recognise and demand it from her cleaner.

This will involve marketing from NCCA. IICRC etc to promote this to the general public.

In my opinion do we really need IICRC and NCCA and Proclean and etc etc associations for our small country if the customer can't even recognise one.

thanks
Mark

PS. regarding extracta, their marketing dosen't really project to me a company of quality and vision so these prices don't surprise me.  However I've got a few of their tools which I like so maybe they need a new marketing/public relations officer.

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2004, 09:03:10 pm »
A complex subject Shaun on which, naturally I have a view.

Derek has covered the NCCA aspect well. But to elaborate on some of the issues that you and Ian raise. When a person decides to take the view that he wants to learn as much as possible in his chosen industry, he will usually invest considerable amounts of time and resources into this. After this investment into his skills/business, the businessman will practice, develop and hone these new found skills. It is now appropriate that the value of his service is considered. A return on the investment will be required. As a highly trained and skilled technician, a premium value needs to be added. Hence, as a good rule of thumb, a highly trained and competent technician with the appropriate "tools of trade" will command a higher price for his services. There is, therefor, a tendancy for some to regard the higher cost cleaners as being more professional than their lower priced colleagues. If only this were true.

Within the lower price echelons of our industry, we have many fine, highly motivated and talented carpet cleaners. They have typically attended a training course or two on their entrance to our industry. It is my opinion that all the generally recognised training courses are good, but some are better. However, by taking on more training, or even repeating a course after a few years, not only do you learn or develop new skills, network with colleagues or discover new tools and equipment, but you are also more motivated. Would it be reasonable to presume that, if given the option, we'd all prefer to receive, say, £100 to clean a carpet rather than £60? That is where the value of training and experience helps to make a difference. It gives you the confidence to ask for and receive what you are truly worth. It's more than being competent at your job, it's about raising your game to that elevated position whereby your customers don't want their carpets cleaned, but they want them cleaned by ME Why? Because you've proved yourself to be totally professional and dedicated ot your chosen trade. When you are a "Professional" you don't work to make a living, you work to make a living AND a profit.

I hope the other more experienced and established Cleanitup members agree with my viewpoint, otherwise I may be missing something (and it wouldn't be the first time :-[)

Ian raises the issue of advanced training. It is my view that, outside the IIRCR it doesn't exist. To achieve advanced skills, you need to seek out the individual courses that are specific to certain areas of our industry. For example, the NCCA Stain Removal Course, Woolsafe, system specific training such as Dry Fusion and Texatherm, But, as such, there is no Advanced Carpet Cleaning Course on the market. These bulletin boards are wonderful tools for educating one another, but they're not a substitute for formal training. But the boards are one tool for informing us of where and when they're available. As a professional carpet cleaner (well, I regard myself as such) I like to attend AT LEAST one training course a year. 2 years ago it was 5 in one year. IMO, this is one of the factors that go towards creating a professional carpet cleaner.

As the IICRC is primarily a training and certification body, we already have a structure for accessing and grading carpet cleaners. To date, IMO, they haven't done a very good job in the UK of getting their message over. I gather that is changing. The NCCA are also developing ideas for a more structured approach to training/qualifications. Members were given the opportunity last year to put forward and develop ideas for this structure. The plan should bare fruit in the not too distant future.

As for the NCCA making a profit from the training it offers, why not? It's a non-profit making association in as much as the profits are re-invested back into the association primarily for the benefit of the members, but frequently as a bonus for the industry at large.

The point Ian hints at  about the NCCA not approving courses from manufacturers isn't strictly true. Prochem now run their courses in a way acceptable to the NCCA.  So too does the IICRC. However, the NCCA teaches how to clean carpets with most generic systems available today. Some companies only manufacture and market, say, HWE machines or Dry Powder products. Although these courses will be excellent, they don't teach you enough. They wouldn't teach you Bonnet, Shampoo or combination systems for example. Hence, as such, they will never be recognised as being adequate for NCCA membership qualification.

A long and probably incomplete post. I may have lost my way in parts, so if it doesn't make sense, my appologies. Got to go, dinners ready ::)

safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

safecleanlakes

  • Posts: 15
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2004, 09:48:03 pm »
Ken,
An excellent post and one that needs to be read more than the once for it to be fully appreciated and thought about in relation to each of our individual businesses. Not enough credit is given to the complexities within this trade for the knowledge, skills and professionalism which an awful lot within this industry strive for day in and day out, and which precious time and money is spent on improving regularly, by on-going training etc.  The sooner this approach becomes the norm, then the better for all concerned within the industry. Its bad enough that an awful lot of customers dont appreciate our work, but its so much worse that certain types of so called c/c businesses do so much damage to the industry as a whole. Errors and misjudgements happen in any walk of life and we are no exception regardless of how well we are trained or experienced, but these pitfalls can be limited by knowledge of what we are doing. Proper training by professional trainers with no vested interest in certain machines or products is vital in taking this industry forward.

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2004, 12:42:18 am »
I agree with Mark, The National Reconized traning in all industries is NVQ and BTEC.

I belieive {and John Bolton will know the answer )    that the BICS offer NVQs and BETECS in cleaning. But is carpet cleaning included.?

Isnt the NCCA a memember of BICS



Why not get NVQ  regonition for NCCA training.

It might take a bit longer and certain modules may have to be completed but then we would all have a reconized  National Qualification. In addition buy obtaining reconized National Qualifications it would enable the well qualified to Run Cleaning Courses at their local areas, through colleges etc without having to depend on Prchem , Alltec etc to take courses around the country

However this would need to be policed as the First company I got involved with said that they were a BICS training Centre in its promotional blurb, but had no idea how you got reconized BICS training when asked about it.

Hence my sceptisism of claims made buy some companies

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2004, 01:18:56 am »
Ian

If you were Corgi registered don’t you think that would have more credibility with Jo public? As Derek pointed out on another post Mrs Mop

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2004, 03:18:37 pm »
I might be wrong, butyou probably have to have NVQS and BETECS to be Corgi registered and to have xxx years of experience.

However with the NCCA you can do 16hrs training, possibly never cleaned a carpet or a suite .

I think at this point I should say I have nothing against the NCCA. I agree with all it supporters Ken Dereck etc.

It is at present probably the best place to go for initial training.

I would just like to see alternitives that mean somthing.

I think I am against Monopoly providers .With school; exams Degrees etc you have more than one awarding authority but they all mean the same thing. You have completed and passed a reconised course of study over a period of time and passed.

Derek

Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2004, 10:03:05 am »
Hi again

I would like to add a few twists to the debate....

It is my belief that many cleaners who start up receive the initial training (good or bad) possibly from the person/company they purchase their equipment from.

Their next step is to go out and try to set the world on fire.  For many the only indication of prices to charge are the leaflets that come through their door...half price offers and all.  
This is their guideline to prices.

Many do not belong to a Trade Association or know of the Bulletin Boards where these items may be freely discussed.

Our business can be very lonely if you are a 'one man band' operation

NVQ's... I have my own thoughts on these and I was one of the people involved in drawing them up in the first place.  A great concept but I am sorry it is my belief that they have not been accepted or used except by the large organisations usually local authorities.

Many of the inspectors for the NVQ grades aquire their status through various means but NOT necessarily through their carpet cleaning expertise, in fact some may have never cleaned a carpet.

I remember clearly that some of the 'institutional' and Union representatives at the initial drawing up of the NVQ ideal meetings were not very happy. This was because many of the cleaners working within their particular areas would be unable to achieve the higher qualifications as they did not operate in the domestic market.
This was perceived by the rest of usto be where the widest variety of substrates were cleaned.

I hope I have made these explanations clear and it puts things into perspective

Derek

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2004, 10:42:17 pm »
Dereck,

Glad to hear you have been down that road.

I quite agree with you a one man operation does not need an NVQ. As hopefully his promotion will come when his business expands.

And his reward will come when he can say been there done that as you and many others have.

However the main Carpet Cleaning qualification seems to be an import from North America. Nothing against North America, but we are British.

And NVQs are our Educational and acheivement standard.

I am sure you tried everything possible to acheive results.

But there are some people who sit on Committes who throw every complication they can think off to stop a result being achieved.

Derek

Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2004, 11:13:08 am »
Ian

I think I may be one of the people you refer to having sat on a committee doing just that... :-/

Let me put in into another perspective.

We are all individuals...just read the many and varied posts on the forums also we all have our own ideas (some good and some bad)

As a Trade body the NCCA has to consider ALL its members taking into consideration (as far as is possible) all these various diversities...not an easy task.

The North American organisation you refer to is I believe the IICRC in which the NCCA are shareholders.
The IICRC is a certification board NOT a Trade Association... its involved in Australia Canada South America and the good 'old' UK, possibly other Countries as well now.

The IICRC have a large budget to play with and spend a great deal of money in creating and maintaining their various 'standard procedures' which are reassessed/updated every two years

Here in the UK a great many cleaners tend to buy on price... the cheapest!  (a little bit like their customers of whom they complain...WOW! that comment will provoke some comments)  :o  
This is reflected in not just chemical/machine purchases but training, belonging to a Trade Assocation and many other aspects of the day to day running of a carpet cleaning business.

E.G. comments have been made several times on these forums relating the the ratio of chemical costs to price of job...the concensus is that they are pretty low so why worry about paying a reasonable price for a quality product  :o  :o

I have better go now and sort out my 'little tin helmet' to protect me from the incoming flack resulting from this post.... Have a nice day

Byeee
Derek

Kevin_Gare

  • Posts: 94
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2004, 01:33:34 pm »
Derek...

Great post. Lots of good points from you and Ken.
Needs to be read a few times.
Totally agree with you.


Regards
Kevin
Kevin
South London Geezer/working City, south London, North Kent.

Kevin_Gare

  • Posts: 94
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2004, 01:35:01 pm »
Sorry and you Ian

Regards Kevin :-[ :-[ :-[
Kevin
South London Geezer/working City, south London, North Kent.

Neil Gott

  • Posts: 106
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2004, 07:25:20 pm »


To get an objective view of the subject of training, it is necessary to first ask some  questions:-

WHY? WHAT? WHO? HOW? WHERE? WHEN?

WHY is training needed? It is in order to raise or maintain standards and isolate the cowboys, but for whose benefit? The cleaner? The client? Or both? Should it be optional or compulsory?

WHAT should be the subject matter and to WHAT degree of  advancement? That can only be decided after the first question has been answered.

WHO is available and willing to do the training? WHO is experienced and knowledgeable enough to do the training? WHO should receive the training? WHO lays down standards?

HOW should the training be delivered? HOW should the trainers be rewarded? HOW should the trainees be certificated? Should training be fragmented or centralised?

WHERE and WHEN should the trainees be trained? Before being let loose with a wand? On the job? On a regular basis? On a renewable license basis?

Some of these questions intertwine, but it can be seen that the subject is complex. My view is that in the UK there is already an infrastructure of training provided by the NCCA, and that any initiatives and developments are best channelled through the NCCA. The situation may not be perfect for every one, but rather than going off at a tangent it is best to join the existing organisation and, if desired, have an influence with muscle -  and well developed muscle at that.

That doesn’t mean that the NCCA must be the only authoritative source of training. There are, as has been said, other excellent sources of information. Many of the topics appearing on forums such as this one are a great help to new and established cleaners, so long as the reader uses a degree of caution in accepting everything as gospel truth. After studying the board for a while it is fairly easy to decide what is generally agreed and what is not.

With regard to the use of logos and memberships, while I accept that they are useful promotional tools, that should not be the sole reason for using them. I hold that they are there to raise and maintain the standards of our businesses (what better way to grow?) and should not be exploited without supporting the standards which they proclaim.
Neil Gott     Southampton U.K.

www.neilgott.co.uk

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2004, 07:37:58 pm »
Hey,

Dereck,

As far as I am comcerned you can take your helment off.

I do believe that you have all tried your hardest, and it would be difficult to move to NVQs etc due to the fraggmented nature, of business without diliting what has already been achieved.

Until the next time

Ian

shaun_pearson

  • Posts: 104
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2004, 01:28:33 am »
hi guys
it is now apparent to me that there has been, and still is lots of good work going into the area of training.  i understand the difficulty in trying to establish one recognised training course for the industry.  i also see the reasons why certain companies would wish to keep control of their own specific training.  
i do however still believe it is possible to get a format of training established that is recognised as THE training course to take.  what if say the ncca approached the various manufacturers prochem, ashbys, extracta etc and with some tweaking to the courses that they provide and general agreement on the training agenda we could have possibly an "ncca approved training course".
as has been said there are many training courses that one can take to further their knowledge, i am of course talking about  entry level training like the one's provided when you purchase a machine from them.  i believe this would be beneficial to all involved and i believe it would increase the uptake in training for new and established c/c's alike.  
thanks for your replies on this subject, they have excellent

cheers shaun

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2004, 05:25:25 pm »
Shaun

Would you at the same time extend this "Only One" view to the other areas of our industry? Only one vacuum brand, only one cleaning system, only one machine, only one cleaning solution.....

Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2004, 08:19:26 pm »
I was going to shut up.  NCCA makes great play in that their training is non generic.

What machine is used for demonstration.

How much time spent on bonnet buffing.

Host type systems etc


Does trainee try out all systems, makes etc./



If the answer is considerable this is what sets them apart from courses by most equipment suppliers.

Anyway in conclusion you can never have too much knowledge.

You have to do the NCCA course or the Americam Course to join.

If you do not want to and just want a badge join THe Guild of Master Craftsmen.

Or The National Federaration of General Cleaners.

or invent your own trade group ??? ??? ??? ???

Derek

Re: read this (prices / training)
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2004, 08:37:26 pm »
Ian

The machines used on the NCCA courses are usually those owned by the tutors or ones loaned to the NCCA.

All the methods are demonstrated and delegates encouraged to 'have a go'... a lot of them do but some are rather shy.

The organisations that I belong to all have an entrance examination plus other criteria which have to be met...

I, personally, don't believe that it is ethical to simply pay money to display a logo... which in effect makes it, in my eyes, completely worthless.

I do stress that this is a personal view and that others may wish to do otherwise... that's their perogative.

Derek