[Sir Squeaky]

Well the moral of the story is....don't be a prat and put a ladder up on a mossy patio. :

[david68]

Hi Williamx
I would love to take you up on your offer of help.
Where in Birmingham are you.

The rest of you guys thanks for all the advise given.

Dave

[groundhog]

I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder   There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!!

[Paul Coleman]

I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder   There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!!

Plenty of "real men" in the graveyard.  I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero 
I'll leave the real hero stuff like eating three Shredded Wheat to others.

Paul  <---- Coco Pop man

[groundhog]

So you have to be a hero to climb a ladder do you   you are far more likely to be killed driving to work than climbing a ladder, especially when your van is full to its limit with water!

[neil100]

Your right groundhog 800 ltrs is a lot of weight to carry in the van.It does effectt perfomance,  I dont give a pigs whistle though for its 0 to 60mph time.

I bought a van that was designed to carry that amount of weight, I would be in trouble if I tried to fit the tank in an estate car.

Has for the brakes I got a van with abs so that helps. I know the van is heavier so I drive accordingly, you wont get me raceing around in it. I allow plenty of room for the vehicle in front. So I only brake lightly.

My freind had a xara estate with only 200ltrs of water in. He only had the tank wedge in. He braked sharply at 20mph the tank came lose and thuded into the back of his seat. It bent his seat and gave himself an hell of a scare. He knew if he had braked hard at 40mph the tank would of broke his back. Very scary indeed.

I think their is a danger with diy wfp set ups in cars that are not properly fitted. I have tried to reduce the amount of risk to myself by haveing the tank fitted through the van floor by a Professional enginer who also designed my tank and tank frame.

At the end of the day you cannot protect yourself from the nutter comeing the other way. I cycle and I remmber the awfull incedent where a car smashed and killed several riders on a training run 6 months ago. You can only do the best you can,

Nel.

[P®oPole™]

groundhog,

what size tank do you have, or whats the maximuim amount of water you can carry?

can you give us a more detailed explanation as to why you dont get on with wfp on domestic work?

[groundhog]

Glad to hear that you drive accordingly when carrying a large amount of water Neil, just as I use my ladder sensibly and correctly to minimise any risk.

I have a 400ltr tank in my van, which I use reguarly for commercial jobs, but on domestics I just find it much easier and quicker  just to get the ladder off the roof rack, rather than messing about with hose reels and poles all day. The main part of my domestic round is a large estate of 300 houses and I clean over 150 of them Monthly. With my ladder I just park up, get my ladder and bucket, and I can work all day without the need to return to the van if I want. And to be honest I enjoy using my ladder, I have used ladders for many years and I use them correctly and have never had a problem. 

[Richy L]

i started using wfp, but stopped!
Too much hastle for little houses, i find it quicker cleaning by hand. If you are slow at window cleaning, or maybe 'getting on' a little, im sure it will speed you up, but i am certain, for me, trad is quicker.

That is, except on leaded and geogian, you cant beath it for that! And big houses and commercial work is great for wfp!
I lost a few customers through turning wfp, but on the other hand i gained a few really good ones too! And these are my best earners!
So if your round consists or big houses you cant go wrong with wfp!


So there are lots of positives and nagatives, but overall i do not regret buying mine

[james cairns]

huys I am the same as leeksons ccommercial and large domestic it is a good tool, but small domestic quicker with the ladder, but do use it on 4 bed leaded
suits this type of work as well

if you are worth your weight with a sweegee and ladder, on small houses it can hold you up, I have 30 years under my belt and can load up as much as 4 sweegees different sizes on my belt if it determines  what work I am doing

jinky

[groundhog]

My point exactly, wfp has its place but for most houses trad is quicker, I also find trad quicker on leaded windows. I also find it far more enjoyable to just sling my ladder on my shoulder and off I go, no hassles with hoses getting caught up and people complaining about their windows being left wet ect ect.

[Richy L]

its still a good tool to haave anyway. For example, conservatory roofs are good little earners

[groundhog]

Exactly

[neil100]

Ok groundhog and leeksons, sounds like some of your work is not suited to wfp.

I can only comment on my own round which is nearly all domestic. I do really large houses worth over £100 to me, down to small 3 bed semis. I use a backpack as well, only on awkward houses. I am fast at trad cleaning but wfp is so so much faster over a days work.On my best stuff I have earned double with wfp on a days work then what I did as a trad w/c. If I go out for half a day I earn far more with wfp no matter the size of house.

On Wednesday afternoon I did an old mill conversion complex, doing trad w/c it took me on average 4 hrs. I was shocked this time as wfp clicked on this complex, I was just better organized, time taken 2 1/2 hrs just going steady.

On a days work I earn at least £70 more with wfp. thats the truth, I just find it very hard to believe and compehend when another w/c says hes faster doing it trad. I know all my freinds who have domestic rounds, Thats 6 other local w/c all find wfp a lot faster and they earn between 30 and 60% more with it.I have looked back at what I was earning last year trad cleaning compared to what I am earning with wfp. The diffrence is amazing

Keep safe on those ladders.

Nel.

[Trevor Knight]

I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder   There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!!

I am lost with all this talk and bravado about being a "real man"??

If it is safe then go up the ladder, if not use and alternative method, simple!

In my days of ladder work I would be footed on a slippery surface. one thing was for certain, I would't even think about doing it myself without footing, thats not brave thats just stupid and for the days that I worked on my own I would simply tell the customer I would not be doing that window today as the ladder isn't safe.

Being a "real man" or not as has been posted, the fact of the matter is you can't earn money while sat in hospital with a broken back or leg etc.....

Whatever method you use should be safe.

Trev

[pylofm]

I think that like many things in life the choice is not entirely ours....Insurance companies being what they are, are starting to see yet another lucrative channel to take in yet more money...Ladder usage

I admit ladders and I are not bed partners, however I do use them for access to use the WFP.

My start with WFP has been great...am evening thinking about a backpac as well.

Thats said my insuance company here in Holland have asked how I work and as a result my insurance premium is lower.  As we all know insuarance companies are global entity's and as such WILL catch on to new ways of taking money.

I suppose that in the future I along with many other will be penalised for carrying large amoutns of water...Thats expected.

Cheers
Dave.

[groundhog]

Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp 
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.

As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!!  As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.

I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker.

[Sir Squeaky]

I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker.

Exactly what I've always said.
They're not going to admit it after spending loads of money. 

It's all talk.
Not sucking me in.

[neil100]

B******S Ground hog.

You say it takes 10 mins to set up with wfp. Tripe, What are you doing?

I would start that row in exactly the same time you would start it doing it trad. You have to get the ladders off including unhooking them.

I would open side van door, put backpack straight on my back, Open backdoor take out my 16' pole, 4 x 4' pole. That would take about the same time as your ladder.I would switch backpack power on as I walk, Adjusting the pole to the requiered hight as I walk, Turning water valve on just before I arrive at first house, I would then start cleaning the window straight away, 30 seconds later move onto next upstairs window, by this time you would be getting ready to squegee your first window. The time gap would widen between us.

It does not take me any longer to set up with wfp then trad. If its the hose from the van I just grab the hose, tuck the hose through my belt, connect my pole and walk to start cleaning windows. how difficult is that? With ladders, its stop car, go round the other side open car door take bucket out, put bucket on the belt on, take bunjees off or ladder clamp, position a ladder next to bucket, lift ladders off  pick up the A ladder and bucket and away you go. For me set up time with wfp is no diffrent to trad.

It makes no diffrence to me if you want to do domestics trad, but I think you are telling porkys as for telling how long it takes to set up wfp.

Nel.

[groundhog]

OK Neil I was talking about a van mount or even worse a trolley, I would agree that a back pack is probably quicker to set up than other wfp systems, but there is still no way that it would be faster than trad on the houses that I am refering to, not if you are cleaning them properly. And I don't have to keep returning to the van to top up with water.

Be careful though as I have heard that back packs are very bad for your back, and just imagine if you tripped up with one attached to your back, that could be very nasty indeed!