[shammy davis jnr]

yip just as i thought it aint really down to the individual its the custumer loyalty thing
as i only did him the once it aint my fault but  his,our in months that follow if this guy disapears  it will be out with the  big spoon for a hummble pie servin  big time 
if i take him back on 
our should i kick him in to touch
once again you decide   
and we start all over again

[M4RK]

Ok,

I agree that ridiculously low pricing due doing it for beer money or because they're not paying tax is detrimental to the industry.
But..

To make my point clearer lets raise the stakes.

Another window cleaner is charging £100 for an easy job that takes an hour to do in an area where most decent window cleaners are earning £25 - £40  per hour.

Surely the ethics of not undercutting a fellow window cleaner have to be balanced against the ethics of seeing a fellow consumer get stung by someone who is obviously more greedy than fair because of the housholders ignorance.

There may not be a set in stone 'going rate' but there is an average price that a quality window cleaner will charge in that area, be it £25 or £40 per hour, whatever.

I charge more than most in the area. And yes I agree Neil,

its up to each individual w/c how much they want to charge. If they agree you clean their windows, No one is forceing them to have them cleaned.

All i'm saying is that if you choose to price very high, then you are running the risk of the customerer finding out that other good professional window cleaners are charging a lot less. So don't be surprised if they sack you on the basis of being too expensive!

My point is...

If you charge a high price, higher than the average window cleaner in your area (ie more than the going rate) then great while it lasts, but don't be surprised if someone comes along and quotes the going rate.

I don't make a practise of going out undercutting and wouldn't take work from a fellow window cleaner if i felt the price was in the realms of "fair".
But i'll give you a real life example:

I cold canvassed a commercial premises, a kids home, an orphanage.
The job takes 30 mins to do, 45 if you drag your heels. The lady there said give me a price, and without me asking or fishing she said to me "at the minute we pay £75 per clean."
Now this is a run down, shabby kids home run by a charity. So are you telling me that I should reason, "well it wouldn't be right to take work from a fellow window cleaner?"
I could have said i can do it for £60 and likely still got the job, but instead I said £35 and got the job. Why?
Because i don't think its right to expoit people's ignorance. Even £35 for half an hour's work is cracking money, and I wouln't normally charge that much. But in view of what they were paying i'm doing them a favour and saving them a bit of money that I'm sure they can put to better use!
If someone calls by and quotes them £20, well so be it.

On the other hand there is a market for high pricing. Why do people buy designer clothes for example, why do people buy Ionics ?

High pricing gives a buyer confidence, and gives a good image to show off to friends or whatever, and if that's why the customer chooses to pay a high price well fair enough. But if that's the case, then why would they accept a lower quote?

Window cleaning is good money, but lets keep it real.

[neil100]

Ok,



All i'm saying is that if you choose to price very high, then you are running the risk of the customerer finding out that other good professional window cleaners are charging a lot less. So don't be surprised if they sack you on the basis of being too expensive!

My point is...

If you charge a high price, higher than the average window cleaner in your area (ie more than the going rate) then great while it lasts, but don't be surprised if someone comes along and quotes the going rate.



Window cleaning is good money, but lets keep it real.

Mark you mention some good and valid ponts, I dont want to get into the ethicel issue on cleaning certain properties that are run by charites lower then another w/c.

For me my work is nearly all domestic. My prices are not extortionate and I am not ripping people off. In every single area I clean their are other w/c cleaning their as well. The estate I have been doing this week their are 5 w/c that go on there. Two w/c actually live on the estate. All are cheaper then me, Two have deliberately tried to undercut me and force me out. I am still there with the most work on that estate. WHY?

The customers are not ignorant of what the other w/c charge, they are well aware that they can save a little bit of money if they switched w/c.

So why have they not done so? They appreciate the quality of service I give and they are happy that I clean their windows to a high standard.

I have 8 customers on one culdesac where this w/c lives, My customers all know him as a neighbour, He has tried desparetly to get there custom, but I have not lost a single customer to him. WHY?

Their are w/c who are more expensive then me, I worked with a freind on his round this week and a lot of his prices are much better then mine.

You have to also put things into context, Wfp has made my earnings go up dramatically due to me being a lot faster. But I still price up New customers if I was doing it Trad. Last year I was earning around £20 an hour Trad w/c on average. So That tells you how cheap some of the w/c are up here. I now earn on average £30 an hour so I would not call that extortionate.

Nel.

I think there is a lot of work out there but people are just Lazy it is easier to undercut somebody then putting the effort into getting new work.

[williamx]

Neil

How would you suggest a wfp cleaner should charge, because on large properties a wfp cleaner is 4 or 5 times faster than a trad cleaner.

So if the children's home is going to take 30 mins to clean by trad methods and you are charging them £35.00 and a wfp cleaner comes along and works out that he can clean this properties in half the time, that the trad cleaner can, so should he then charge half the trad cleaners rate or the same.

[Sir Squeaky]

Maybe not half, but certainly a lot less.

Why should he charge more per hour, just to try and recuperate his costs?
It was his choice.

[Trevor Knight]

Good morning squeaky,

If it was me I would charge the same if not more, fancy a merc van next year 

Trev

[neil100]

Neil

How would you suggest a wfp cleaner should charge, because on large properties a wfp cleaner is 4 or 5 times faster than a trad cleaner.

So if the children's home is going to take 30 mins to clean by trad methods and you are charging them £35.00 and a wfp cleaner comes along and works out that he can clean this properties in half the time, that the trad cleaner can, so should he then charge half the trad cleaners rate or the same.

Hi William.

First off I can only do a direct comparision with how fast I was as a trad w/c and how fast I am now at wfp. I will never ever be 4 or 5 times faster then trad on any of my work or any new work that comes my way. As a Trad w/c I was quite rapid.

So over the course of a days work I do clean more houses so I earn more money. But it would rank of gross STUPIDITY if I was to reduce my prices now because of my investment in wfp. Of what possible benefit would I gain from the investment I made of K15 if I was to start reduceing my prices.

The customer gains by now haveing her upvc cleaned for Free. It would of cost them a small fortune to have it cleaned manually. The time it takes is Irrelevant to a degree.

But what if wfp gets banned in the future, if we have a severe drout and there are stand pipes in the streets. You may have to go back to Trad w/c so you have to keep your prices inline with Trad w/c.

AS Trev would say work smatter not harder.

Nel.

[Fast 1 *]

Maybe not half, but certainly a lot less.

Why should he charge more per hour, just to try and recuperate his costs?
It was his choice.

trouble is,if wfp users go cheaper,it will put trad users in a worse position.I say keep it the same across the board

[neil100]

A very good point fastone. I never even thought of it along those lines. So wfp is doing Squeaks a big favour, He will not have to reduce his prices to compete.

How about giving us wfp some thanks Squeaks as we are helping to maintain your living standards.

Nel.

[pjulk]

I agree the price should be the same what ever method you use.
They are still getting the same job done ( Windows Cleaned ) so why drop the price.

WFP costs a lot more money to get kitted out and then the running costs, larger van, new poles, resin, filters, hose connectors wear out fast, pole hoses, the list goes on.

Its the same in a lot of trades.
Take carpenters you get one using hand tools and one using power tools the one using power tools does not do it cheaper because he can get done quicker.
If that was the case he would stay with the hand tools.

Paul

[Sir Squeaky]

A very good point fastone. I never even thought of it along those lines. So wfp is doing Squeaks a big favour, He will not have to reduce his prices to compete.

How about giving us wfp some thanks Squeaks as we are helping to maintain your living standards.

Nel.

You're amusing. :

I won't ever have to reduce my prices anyway.
Wfp users WILL without doubt, it's being picked up on by the cheap cowboys, and a price war is looming.

Me? I can still charge the same (and more than you), because a proper job done by hand will be harder to find, and worth more.

Why do you think Rolls Royces cost so much?
Bulit properly by hand, not machine.

[Trevor Knight]

Trouble is Squeaky,

Rolls Royce is a dying breed, how many do you see out and about nowadays, there are more executive/prestigue cars out there that people choose that are built by machines.

Trev

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi everyone,

I have quickly scanned some of the posts on this thread (as I am running behind time lol). I do not really want to argue points, but I would like to put a valid point to you.

In reality, I believe wfp should charge slightly more than traditional, why!!! Well it is not the same job anymore, the customer is also getting their frames cleaned and even doors (if you work like me). The traditional cleaner nearly always doubles his price when the client wants their frames cleaned, because he classes this as an extra, whereas with wfp, it is standard (again if you work like me). In addition, the customers tend to go for a longer gap between cleans, because, yes here we go, their windows do stay cleaner for longer. Plus the running costs are a great deal higher for wfp uses.

All my customers are happy with what they are paying, as they believe the service is worth it. I have had loads of WC’s try to undercut me, however I have not lost one client, which is really down to all the customers having bad experiences with window cleaners and now they have the service they want, they are reluctant to risk loosing it.

Many Thanks

Andrew

[Paul Coleman]

Mark you say that their is a going rate.

I disagree there IS NO STANDARD RATE for window cleaners.

You charge the customer what you want to earn. Window cleaners are not working to a Goverment set Target on how much to earn per hour.

Its idiots who come into w/c and charge such a stupid price per hour that can make it difficult for the rest of us who take a great deal of pride in the job we do.

I lost one customer about 10yrs ago to another w/c who told my customer that I was charging more then the set amount for that property. She sacked me, Took this Idiot on as her w/c, She owed me for two window cleans but refused to pay me because in her veiw I had been ripping her off for years. I tried to explain to her that its up to each individual w/c how much they want to charge. If they agree you clean their windows, No one is forceing them to have them cleaned.

Two years later this same customer asked if I could start cleaning them again cos the other Idiot only cleaned them twice. I wont write my reply to her. But it felt good.

Nel.

I would have done the clean but only once.  I wou;ld have quoted a rate for a first clean that would have recouped the unpaid two cleans and given me a decent earner for the clean I did that day.  I would also have insisted on payment in advance or at the start of the job by cash (to prevent her stopping the cheque).  I would have done a proper, decent job.  Then I would have walked.

[simon knight]

I can see the advantages of WFPs but for me the big drawbacks are: In and around Putney where the hell do I park as it's 99.99% residents parking only and secondly: you can't use them indoors. I reckon that if you're doing conservatories and loads of leaded glass they're a Godsend but alas for a poor SW London W/C it's ladders, blade, scrim and lots of shanks pony....ho hum!

[Trevor Knight]

Hi Simon,

Just a thought but I have certain jobs which require me to park on red or yellow lines. I spoke t the borough council and they gave me a permit to park relating to work. I think if memory serves me correctly I get up to 2 hours before I have to move on.

Maybe worth speaking to your council. I do work like this is SW19.

Best wishes,

Trev

[williamx]

Simon

When I first started out, all of my customers lived on streets that you could not park on, the nearest I could park was about 1/2 a mile away.

What I used was a garden trolley which held 8 x 25 litres of pure water plus pump hose and all the other equipment that you need.

I was thinking of converting a tricycle to carry all of these thing instead, I might still do and start selling them to london window cleaners

As for working indoors then nobody uses a wfp system.  You keep getting the carpets wet.

[dai]

Many young guys starting out, fail to get their sums  right in the begining.
Don't forget these guys are totally inexperienced. They look at their hourly rate and compare it to their last job and think wow!. They look at it as a job, not a business.
They fail to appreciate the true costs of running a business. They forget about the time spent collecting, canvassing, doing the paper work, being rained off, holiday /sickness pay. And that's before their actual expenses.
It's easier for those of us that know about forums like this one, but the majority of guys out there don't.
They may not be deliberately trying to undercut on prices but don't know any better.
There is one thing for certain, they will learn. Human nature dictates, when they realise that other guys are getting twice as much for doing the same job. their own efforts are undervalued. Do any of you know of anyone that works for half the pay and is happy to do it? If he is at the time,  it won't be for long, people arn't made that way. The problem is that it causes us problems whilst they wisen up. Dai

[simon knight]

Couldn't agree more Dai. Also once you start charging £10 for a 3 bed house and then a year or 2 on realise that the right price is £25-30 or whatever you can't just suddenly up the anti.

I learnt the hard way...!!!

Personally I reckon £25 -£30 p/h is fair money if the house is straight forward (I know lots charge more!).  The trouble is that customers seem to think that because you're charging them £25 for an hours work that this means that you're earning £200 a day (it goes without saying they assume you don't pay tax) and £200 a day is probably more than their old man is on.  Certainly for myself I reckon I actually "work" 7 hrs a day (less in winter) with the rest of the time going from job to job, waiting for customer to arrive back home and of course the odd person who's forgotten and not at home (really get cross when this happens).

Also a problem I'm encountering more and more of late is BT1571 or other another answering machines...I leave messages but does the call get returned?...nah!...or seldom.  Any thoughts out their as to how to get around this?

[williamx]

simon

Nearly everone has a mobile phone, you could get a mobile with enough free minutes on it, so it won't cost you anything to call them.