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Clear Vision

  • Posts: 1908
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2006, 11:19:29 pm »
Fair play to you andrew!

Looks good

Some will like it and others won't. Each to there own.


Quote from tosh

PS.  I remember a similar post giving Peter Fogwill a 'dig' about his Salmon Brush and he fought his corner admirably; citing point by point; why his brush is quality.  I bet he flogged a few more of them after that post.

So show me I'm wrong!

Yes he did flog a few more!! I got one!

I would pay £500 for one.

It would be worth every penny. Best brush out there!  I couldn't do without it. Vikan, Ugh, Rubish!!!

Clear Vision

paul mather

  • Posts: 528
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2006, 11:29:25 pm »
Clear vision you say Vikan brushes are rubbish, just wondered what makes you say that. Have only been WFPing for about a week & I get on alright with mine. What makes this Salmon brush so good.

Please enlighten me.
Use the wand of power !!


Warrington, Cheshire

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 11:29:43 pm »
With reference to punctures:

but I personally only know of 2 that have happened.

Well that'll be one of the users who lives close to me.  He's had two punctures in the last eight months and finds them frustrating.  I'm sure you know who I mean, because the other user from the Chepstow area sold his 'Freedom' (via this site) after about two months of purchasing it, then built his own system that held more water and had an integrated hose and reel attached.

The benefits of a pneumatic tyre far outweigh the remote possibility of a puncture.

Anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise to me.

We have tried non pneumatic wheels and found them to be very inferior. No cushioning effect when going up/down steps..  far less comfortable to use all day due to bumping up and down and ruts left in soft ground etc.

Given the 19 or 32 kg dry weight' of your system, either way, it's still heavy; maybe pneumatic wheels are a must for the weight of your system.  But for lighter systems which carry the same amount of water, or slightly less weight; sack trucks suffice, and there is completely no risk of flat tyres.



If it it only a boot I tell them its not ideal.

Good, so I won't be reading anymore posts here from guys complaining about your system, saying they can't get it out of their boot when they've got ladders on their roof.

And I won't hear you telling them to just put their ladders well-forward, clear of the boot, so it opens easily; because that post didn't sound like 'sound' advice to me; dangerous even.

Also you do have a much larger capacity battery so you dont have to worry about running out of charge or as a lot do orcarry another battery to get through the day.

I think this is complete rubbish.  I do not know of a single commercial system where you have to 'worry about running out of charge' during the working day; if you've charged it properly.  Even a backpack battery will last you more than a full day.  Name a system which 'runs out of charge' or where you have to carry a spare battery to last one full-hard days work?

In our and others experience manouveralibility = PRODUCTIVITY which of course = increased earning potential.

Your equation in the above quote is extremely weak; like your product, however I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, which is why I love the backpack.  

It truly does go ANYWHERE; totally manouverable; unlike the 'Freedom', which is HEAVY, even before you add water and doesn't carry much more water than the backpack anyway.

AND THE BACKPACK IS A FRACTION OF THE 'FREEDOMS' PRICE TOO!!!!

However, other guys, like Ian_Giles would say he earns more using a van mounted system because he doesn't spend time fannying about changing barrels or re-filling backpacks.  (Previously Ian used a 50 litre system as both a 'car mounted system' and as a trolley system; same cost as the Freedom; with twice the water carrying capacity).

They get their manouverability with their longer hoses without lugging round 50kg of weight with them.

Regarding the MK1. We have moved on considerably since then.

It was only six months ago you were pushing them?  You said they were the 'fastest selling WFP system on the market'. 

What was so wrong with them that you've had to change them?  Was it the weight?  They're still heavy!  Was it the lack of water carrying capacity?  It still carries the same.  Was it the fact you've got to 'rubber bungie' hoses to them?  Oh you still have too.

There's no difference with this system; it's still a lot of weight, a lot of money; to carry a little bit of water which a backpack could do; probably better for a fraction of the cost.

I could continue (to bore everyone; sorry folks), but Wor Lass is telling me I have to go to bed!  (Groan!)

Matt, help some fellow window cleaners out and post your DIY link here; to stop them from purchasing a white elephant.

Matt's site shows you how to build a 'same spec' trolley system for under a third of the cost.

I'll concede to Andrew that DIY WFP trolleys don't look as professional as his.


paul mather

  • Posts: 528
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 11:52:33 pm »
Wow Tosh you've certainly got a bee in your bonnet over this haven't you.

By the way aren't freedom the company selling on Ebay on demand R-O filter systems & then when you talk to anybody in the know they tell you they will not be able to produce water quick enough, just wondered!
Use the wand of power !!


Warrington, Cheshire

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 11:57:17 pm »
Tosh

You obviously are putting a lot of "thought" into this one.   ;)

For every arguement there is a counter arguement. You are giving your opinion which you are entitled to do. I have already given mine except to say that this is no "white elephant" You could if you wished to pick the bones out of every system on the market. Thats is a fact.

I  FIRMLY believe in our products.. otherwise I would walk away from them tomorrow.. period!!

I willl let the marketplace decide the merits or otherwise.

Andrew

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2006, 12:24:04 am »
Wow Tosh you've certainly got a bee in your bonnet over this haven't you.

By the way aren't freedom the company selling on Ebay on demand R-O filter systems & then when you talk to anybody in the know they tell you they will not be able to produce water quick enough, just wondered!



The Merlin IS an on demand system. It will produce up to 2700 ltrs of water per day!!  Work it out.  And.. its is described as being capable of using to "TOP-UP" as you go.  Start the day with 650 ltrs and the vast majority of users wont have to top-up anyway. You can if you need to though.

In fact.. have a look here http://www.ge-merlin.com/  This is the official Merlin website with all specs etc. Looks like my 2700 ltrs per day is a conservative estimate.

Andrew


JM123

  • Posts: 2095
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2006, 02:31:29 am »
ok guys cool down..........so the freedom trolley isn't everyone cup of tea - def not mine, can't see much freedom in not being able to do 3 or 4 houses before I have to fill up again, but Tosh I'm sure it suits some people, in the same way that  some don't rate backpacks you (nor I) rate trolleys, everyone has their right to opinion and speech, even squeeky. 

Personally I'm with Tosh on the backpacks (although I don't use one) I can appreciate their value.
Live life in the fast lane.......if you break down you'll freewheel further

Ballymena N.I

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2006, 08:09:13 am »
To be honest this is now getting weary for me. Last night my wife told me just to ignore the "knockers" and carry on with our success story. She knows me better than anyone else and is proud of me and what my colleagues and myself are doing. That is worth a lot to me and outweighs by far any derogatory comments made by any persons whatever their motivations may be.

Nuff said..  Gail (the boss) is making me a cuppa and I have orders to forget this and relax (Which usually means shopping) :(

Andrew




Sarah Sarill

  • Posts: 1537
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2006, 09:15:57 am »
Sorry guys but the REAL test of wether the product is the 'one for your business' can only be argued if you have tested it yourself.

So it may be ' too heavy'  it may need filling to often'  it may be the 'wrong colour' etc etc but IMO if it does not suit, dont buy. 

This forumi s all about opinions and persnal views on products but keep it unbiased and list the pros and cons for others to make a well  informed decision. Whats annoys me though is that Newbies on this site look to the more experienced views and often replies and opinions are so strong in their like or dislike of the product it almost makes their minds up for them.

Andrews trolley has obviously fitted the specification of countless w/c on this forum alone so it must have its worth in the marketplace. 

We currently use an Omnitrolley and, (sorry Glyn) butfind it most unattractive to look at although it is reliable and holds 50 ltrs of water which is ideal for top and bottoms of residential work in one street.

My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'

Horses for courses but it obviously has its place in the trolley market. Keep at it Andrew,

Sarah
Sarah

paul mather

  • Posts: 528
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2006, 09:30:35 am »
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'

I agree with most of your sentiments Sarah, not sure this is the place to have a good rant about somebodies equipment.

But on the other hand I'm not sure it's the place to try & get free advertising as well. So perhaps those who try to use this forum to flog more gear get what they deserve. If every company tried to use this forum like that, the common or garden WCs like us would never get a word in edgeways.

As for your statement try before you buy, most of WFP pole equipment isn't cheap so there are potentially a lot of expensive mistakes out there.
Use the wand of power !!


Warrington, Cheshire

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2006, 10:03:49 am »
Hi Andrew and all,

Your new design looks as ever well thought out and beautifully made.

As you and others know Andrew I just do not beleive in the ethos of a trolley based system (apart from a few exceptions!) but I still think yours is a decent bit of kit.

I would never use a trolley again for all the reasons that many have stated, I started with one 5 years ago.

I have a Trolley design in my design pad that only weighs about 7 kg 'dry' and can carry 38 litres of water, which would solve many of the 'handling' issues, and would only cost about £250 retail. The trouble is I still wouldn't use it! So I can't really build it and sell it when I know that there are easier ways of running a WFP pole system.

I know, Andrew, that you will continue to have great success with these systems and I admire your drive and enthusiasm, but I would stick to your van mount systems which I think you yourself now use.

Alex

Sarah Sarill

  • Posts: 1537
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details New
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2006, 10:15:49 am »
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'

As for your statement try before you buy, most of WFP pole equipment isn't cheap so there are potentially a lot of expensive mistakes out there.

Hi Paul,

Sorry, did not make myself clear here.  What I ment to say was that there are a few retail outlets  who sell many brands and have them in stock to post.  I recently tested a 60ft pole of theirs and  I know they have one of  Andrews Mk1 models as a sample.

Anyone can go and have a test before they make any £500 + mistakes .

I agree that advertising may result in negative opinions and am sure Andrew and all the others on here who choose to do so are prepared for that and can reply as we all can.

My (not so well made) point was that opinions should be based on first hand experience and contain the benefits and pitfalls off that product to give an all round view.

Enough from me (LOL - its not even my product to sell !!!)

Sarah

Sarah

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2006, 10:23:17 am »
Thanks Alex  :)

It's no secret that we differ on our opinions re whats best for the job. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same. I only really differ with you on most residential work though Alex. I use a van mount for my commercial and very large residential because its the best piece of kit for the job. Like Sarah so aptly put it above its all about horses for courses and personal experience/preference.

Ionics/Omnipole/Brodex et al will still be here filling their niche in the market just as we will for many years to come.

I would just like to say as well a thank you to all who have emailed me with messages of support.   :)

Cheers

Andrew

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7740
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2006, 11:02:47 am »
Andrew,

I actually like the fact we differ, much more interesting!

Just to put the record straight we actually do a lot of domestic work as well.

We have 6 man days a week of domestic work, and this is real Cornish village/rural domestic work so we do have a little understanding of the type of needs that domestic users have. We also have about 7 man days a week of very large commercial work so we kind of understand that as well!

The one change we make for domestic work is that we switch to 2x 60metres of microbore instead of our 2x 100 metres, they are lighter to lift in and out of the car all the time.

In the spirit of friendly competition I would love to stage a comparision test of a days work with a vehicle based system against a trolley system. I might be surprised!

Quite like the idea of a backpack though, but I'm too lazy to carry it though!

Alex

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 12:02:19 pm »
Alex.

Yes I already knew from previous postings that you do a lot of domestic work.

We have a real mixture of domestic. Everything from rows of terraced through semis to large detached. A real "hotch potch" if you like. When I first kitted my big van out with a tank and microbore etc I gave it a serious trial on our domestic work for about 4 weeks. Of course at first we were considerably slower than with the trolley and I was tempted to halt the trial but this was to be expected because of the learning curve. By the end of the trial all in all on a decent percentage there wasnt much in it at all really. However we did have problems in a lot of cases with parking near enough to the property in more built up areas which meant trailing hose down pavements or over roads etc.  When it came to terraces yes the van was great when we could get parked decently at the front but getting around the back was impossible.

Anyway my honest concluion was that if you have a big enough van that the ideal situation would be to have a tank.. powered by the Freedom Trolley of course :) then when needed you just pop the trolley off and go to it.

That way you have the best of both worlds. However the reallity is that most window cleaners work from far smaller vehicles such as estate cars/hatchbacks etc that they use for their own personal transport. A tank mount just doesn't seem to be practical for these folks because they need to empty most of the space regularly.

Really all in all I suppose we all accept some sort of compromise because of circumstances/nature of workload etc. In most cases as well purely as a result of using WFP in whatever form we all benefit not only in terms of safety but in increased earnings so we become pretty happy with our lot. I know I and my guys are so we stick to our tried and tested method of achieving it.

I am passionate about the benefits of WFP for window cleaners. Safety being the most important one and my prime motivation is to see as many as possible using it in whatever fashion they choose.

From your prices Alex I know that you must be as well. I have a very good idea of how small your profit margins are and applaud you for all of the background work that people dont see in bringing really affordable quality products to the market.

No mate I am too old and weary to get involved in any sort of competition however friendly it may be. I left the "competetive" world to get into window cleaning  ;D

Keep on trucking Alex

Andrew


Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1964
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2006, 12:49:52 pm »
Hi Andrew

The new trolly looks very good, do you have the weight of the new on empty?

Thanks Roy

Morph

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2006, 12:58:10 pm »
I'd like to thank all who have supported and emailed me too. ::)

Sarah Sarill

  • Posts: 1537
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2006, 01:09:36 pm »
Pj

Do you need a bit of TLC today then Hun ?

Ill send you a SHORT (not long winded !! ) email if it would make you smile  ;) :-*

Sarah
Sarah

Morph

Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2006, 01:25:42 pm »
Yep! :-*

Would you believe it, I've got a chest infection! :'( :'( :'(

supernova77

  • Posts: 3547
Re: Our latest design. Pics and details
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2006, 01:33:41 pm »
I have been using a Freedom Trolley for the last 6 months, and its been a great bit of kit for me.

I'm now also toying with the idea of buying a van mount system, but I would still keep the Freedom Trolley aswell to go with it.

Andrew - Could you please email me some details on your van mount system as I'm sure after using the Freedom Trolley it is also a quality bit of kit?

Andy