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jay moley

  • Posts: 454
How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« on: September 09, 2021, 05:16:51 pm »
Ive taken on a young lad. Seems nice enough, arrives on time, listens to what I say, no attitude problems (so far).

He's only been with me 5 days.

First 3 days I split the time between teaching him/watching him work and doing a bit myself just to speed things up as he is very slow (I expected this). Then I started thinking that he needs to be doing most of the work as he'll learn quicker so the last 2 days Ive just taught and observed apart from a few really difficult windows.

My God its boring. Just watching someone clean windows. Anyway regardless of that this week Ive not even covered the expenses so I cant continue like that next week. I think Im going to have to let him get on with it without my supervision.

How long do you think it takes to really get the hang of WFP?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers


richard connett

  • Posts: 292
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2021, 05:35:33 pm »
Does your set up allow two users from 1 van?

Bungle

  • Posts: 2207
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2021, 06:26:34 pm »
Ive taken on a young lad. Seems nice enough, arrives on time, listens to what I say, no attitude problems (so far).

He's only been with me 5 days.

First 3 days I split the time between teaching him/watching him work and doing a bit myself just to speed things up as he is very slow (I expected this). Then I started thinking that he needs to be doing most of the work as he'll learn quicker so the last 2 days Ive just taught and observed apart from a few really difficult windows.

My God its boring. Just watching someone clean windows. Anyway regardless of that this week Ive not even covered the expenses so I cant continue like that next week. I think Im going to have to let him get on with it without my supervision.

How long do you think it takes to really get the hang of WFP?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers

How long did it take you and go from there.

I let my lad clean our windows. He was slow but very thorough. If taking someone on be patient with them, remember they don't know anything about the job. It probably looks easy to passers by.
We look at them, they look through them.

Phil J

  • Posts: 627
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2021, 06:32:21 pm »
Speed comes with experience, so if you are happy with his attitude and he's eager to learn just stick with it he'll be competent and quicker before you know it. I remember my first day on the pole and it was really, really slow going.

Ched

  • Posts: 417
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2021, 08:09:28 pm »
If he is doing a good job, be it a slow one then can you not say you do the back and I do front and meet in middle? That way you get more work done and he has a speed target to try and meet you at the half way point. As long as he is doing quality work that is a good foundation to build speed on.

Simon Trapani

  • Posts: 1460
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2021, 08:13:33 pm »
I agree that it’s very painful watching someone else learn wfp😂

NBwcs

  • Posts: 828
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2021, 08:16:14 pm »
How longs a piece of string? Some learn quickly some take longer, some like NWH have been cleaning windows for an eternity and still hasn't learnt how to clean windows with cold water. Just hope your lads not as incompetant as Nigel.

SB Cleaning

  • Posts: 4231
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2021, 08:20:30 pm »
I agree that it’s very painful watching someone else learn wfp😂
That's why I stay on my own , no one I have seen on the pole has had my skills ;D

james peters

  • Posts: 931
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2021, 09:22:57 pm »
when my daughter started with me , I explained how it worked .
I told her to take her time and just concentrate ., the most important thing was being thorough .
you have to take the hit at first .
she is now realy fast and to a high standard .  ;D

jay moley

  • Posts: 454
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 09:39:17 pm »
Does your set up allow two users from 1 van?

Yes

jay moley

  • Posts: 454
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2021, 09:39:57 pm »
Speed comes with experience, so if you are happy with his attitude and he's eager to learn just stick with it he'll be competent and quicker before you know it. I remember my first day on the pole and it was really, really slow going.

I know he will speed up over time so will be patient.

jay moley

  • Posts: 454
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2021, 09:40:19 pm »
If he is doing a good job, be it a slow one then can you not say you do the back and I do front and meet in middle? That way you get more work done and he has a speed target to try and meet you at the half way point. As long as he is doing quality work that is a good foundation to build speed on.

Thats the plan for next week.

Slacky

  • Posts: 7552
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2021, 12:33:08 am »
I think it depends on whether you use hot or not. If you don’t you’ll learn a lot quicker  ;D

richard connett

  • Posts: 292
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2021, 08:04:25 am »
Does your set up allow two users from 1 van?
I would do the tops, him bottoms then swap
That way you can keep half an eye on him and you can gee him up if needs be. Then you’ll be doing houses next to each other etc etc . I’d give him a couple of weeks



james peters

  • Posts: 931
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2021, 08:08:33 am »
ON the days my daughter works with me , I use the reel, and she uses a back pack. . we have found this the best way .

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2487
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2021, 12:23:51 pm »
Ive taken on a young lad. Seems nice enough, arrives on time, listens to what I say, no attitude problems (so far).

He's only been with me 5 days.

First 3 days I split the time between teaching him/watching him work and doing a bit myself just to speed things up as he is very slow (I expected this). Then I started thinking that he needs to be doing most of the work as he'll learn quicker so the last 2 days Ive just taught and observed apart from a few really difficult windows.

My God its boring. Just watching someone clean windows. Anyway regardless of that this week Ive not even covered the expenses so I cant continue like that next week. I think Im going to have to let him get on with it without my supervision.

How long do you think it takes to really get the hang of WFP?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers

They should be able to do a decent amount of work on their own within a week

Some are up to too speed with me within 5 days

Some take a little longer but are there in 2 weeks and smashing out big numbers
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2021, 03:02:32 pm »
you can learn the technical side in couple of days - learning all the little "tricks of the trade" takes a while longer - the biggest issue we have is them learning the rounds and where to park for best access etc..

in week one the new operator should be proficient in using the pole and the mechanics - they maybe slow but you can work on that  if they are sloppy then get rid - I have yet to get a sloppy worker to be better and more dedicated

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2021, 03:04:15 pm »
Ive taken on a young lad. Seems nice enough, arrives on time, listens to what I say, no attitude problems (so far).

He's only been with me 5 days.

First 3 days I split the time between teaching him/watching him work and doing a bit myself just to speed things up as he is very slow (I expected this). Then I started thinking that he needs to be doing most of the work as he'll learn quicker so the last 2 days Ive just taught and observed apart from a few really difficult windows.

My God its boring. Just watching someone clean windows. Anyway regardless of that this week Ive not even covered the expenses so I cant continue like that next week. I think Im going to have to let him get on with it without my supervision.

How long do you think it takes to really get the hang of WFP?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers

They should be able to do a decent amount of work on their own within a week

Some are up to too speed with me within 5 days

Some take a little longer but are there in 2 weeks and smashing out big numbers

is that smashing and scratching big numbers on cars  ??? ;D

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2487
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2021, 03:20:10 pm »
Ive taken on a young lad. Seems nice enough, arrives on time, listens to what I say, no attitude problems (so far).

He's only been with me 5 days.

First 3 days I split the time between teaching him/watching him work and doing a bit myself just to speed things up as he is very slow (I expected this). Then I started thinking that he needs to be doing most of the work as he'll learn quicker so the last 2 days Ive just taught and observed apart from a few really difficult windows.

My God its boring. Just watching someone clean windows. Anyway regardless of that this week Ive not even covered the expenses so I cant continue like that next week. I think Im going to have to let him get on with it without my supervision.

How long do you think it takes to really get the hang of WFP?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers

They should be able to do a decent amount of work on their own within a week

Some are up to too speed with me within 5 days

Some take a little longer but are there in 2 weeks and smashing out big numbers

is that smashing and scratching big numbers on cars  ??? ;D

Darran

Haha!  8)
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

Ascjim

  • Posts: 204
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2021, 08:45:46 pm »
I think it takes a good 12 months to get fully up to speed.

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2487
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2021, 02:06:59 pm »
I think it takes a good 12 months to get fully up to speed.

At cleaning a window? That’s insane?!!
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

jim bean

  • Posts: 194
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2021, 12:51:12 am »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2021, 12:12:36 pm »
Two weeks for a competent person to clean individual windows at a good speed and properly

Much longer learning a round and where to park etc….

The above applies to 90% of windows - as the seasons change then there will be small variations to learn

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2487
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2021, 05:50:47 pm »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Then I must be Jesus  ;D
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2021, 06:32:34 pm »
if your Jesus - that makes me......
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2021, 06:33:17 pm »
Mother teresa  ;D
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

jim bean

  • Posts: 194
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2021, 08:09:46 pm »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Then I must be Jesus  ;D

Don’t know what your good speed is but it certainly isn’t the same as mine lol they’re still gonna be half as slow as I would be for 2 months at least so that’s not a good speed 👍

Richard iSparkle

  • Posts: 2487
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2021, 09:12:43 pm »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Then I must be Jesus  ;D

Don’t know what your good speed is but it certainly isn’t the same as mine lol they’re still gonna be half as slow as I would be for 2 months at least so that’s not a good speed 👍

We’re pretty nippy mate. People usually think I’m lying when I tell them our numbers 😉
iSparkle Window Cleaning

www.isparklewindowcleaning.uk

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2021, 09:47:10 pm »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Then I must be Jesus  ;D

Don’t know what your good speed is but it certainly isn’t the same as mine lol they’re still gonna be half as slow as I would be for 2 months at least so that’s not a good speed 👍

We’re pretty nippy mate. People usually think I’m lying when I tell them our numbers 😉

Speed is subjective - what you may think is fast may only be average or even slow - as we are all independent we have no standard to work by..

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

jim bean

  • Posts: 194
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2021, 10:08:57 pm »
What are these numbers ? I always watch other windies when I see one so I know I’m pretty damn fast

jim bean

  • Posts: 194
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2021, 10:10:03 pm »
Probably 2 months working alongside a fully competent user watching telling them exactly how to do little things when they crop up
Anyone who can be up to anything like half decent speed in a week is a miracle

Then I must be Jesus  ;D

Don’t know what your good speed is but it certainly isn’t the same as mine lol they’re still gonna be half as slow as I would be for 2 months at least so that’s not a good speed 👍

We’re pretty nippy mate. People usually think I’m lying when I tell them our numbers 😉

Speed is subjective - what you may think is fast may only be average or even slow - as we are all independent we have no standard to work by..

Darran
Only possible way to test it would be to clean 2 side by side identical houses really

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2021, 07:52:49 pm »
How long does it take someone to learn WFP Mmm,if they’ve cleaned windows traditionally my honest opinion would be at least a year and even then 3 more years in they’ll think they were slow in the first year.
Someone that’s cleaned traditional will end up being a better cleaner than someone that’s never cleaned windows and that’s coming from someone that knows everything.

Stoots

  • Posts: 5986
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2021, 09:50:43 pm »
It takes years to really be efficent, fast and do a good job.

Easy to be slow and good or fast and poor but fast and good won't come quickly.

That's said, let him crack on, he will never be as good as you and always get the odd complaint it's an employee thing.

jonboywalton75

  • Posts: 2175
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2021, 12:38:28 pm »
I'm fast and good enough to get paid good rates
I've been wf poling for 12 years,
Trad for 17 years before that
I'm super quick but 64 so not long to go now

jonboywalton75

  • Posts: 2175
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2021, 12:39:52 pm »
I'd say I got quick and good after about 3 or 4 years
Now I'm lightning  ;D

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2021, 12:51:52 pm »
How quick you will be in a few months and how you’ll clean with the pole years down the line is totally different, once you know what method will clean to a good standard you’ll stick with that and speed will follow.
A light pole a good brush and hot water makes light work of a huge amount of windows in little time.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2021, 02:42:10 pm »
How quick you will be in a few months and how you’ll clean with the pole years down the line is totally different, once you know what method will clean to a good standard you’ll stick with that and speed will follow.
A light pole a good brush and hot water makes light work of a huge amount of windows in little time.

your still trying to find that method art you ?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2021, 03:31:47 pm »
No mate I just don’t want to let some fool loose on decent work if I was cleaning 2 up 2 downs or similar work maybe I’d have a team of monkeys out most days knocking em out like a pent up teenager but I don’t 👌,some work has be done to a good standard or you’ll lose it big commercial jobs that don’t care how they look is a different ball game.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2021, 03:39:17 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

your like a clockwork toy.....


wind you up......



oooooooooooooffff.  yoooooouuuuu. gooooooooooooo..!!

 ;D ;D ;D

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2021, 04:01:15 pm »
If I had a big school or Tesco’s to clean Darren they’d get a half hour WFP course you know what I mean yeah,anyone can clean windows how hard can it be to start off with the money floods in and then you get a Tsunami of text messages saying service no longer required as it’s not to the same service as it once was lol,yeah seen it all before m8.

Dry Clean

  • Posts: 8428
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2021, 07:57:54 pm »
If I had a big school or Tesco’s to clean Darren they’d get a half hour WFP course you know what I mean yeah,anyone can clean windows how hard can it be to start off with the money floods in and then you get a Tsunami of text messages saying service no longer required as it’s not to the same service as it once was lol,yeah seen it all before m8.

How many weeks, months or years where you cleaning windows before you decided you were ready/good enough to take on your first paying customer, you do talk some nonsense at times NWH.  ;D

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2021, 10:58:30 am »
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it sometimes we all think Whoops they look awful after a clean,imagine what it’ll be like this time of the year with a newbie with low sun lol.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2021, 02:03:50 pm »
best time to learn!

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

Dry Clean

  • Posts: 8428
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2021, 08:06:28 pm »
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it sometimes we all think Whoops they look awful after a clean,imagine what it’ll be like this time of the year with a newbie with low sun lol.

We were all newbies at one point and unlike an employee didn't have an experienced guy to keep an eye on us, so will ask again, how long did you practice until you felt confident to clean for your first paying customer ?
You're washing dirt of a window, there's a bit of skill in getting up to speed but its not rocket science NWH.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2021, 08:40:20 pm »
you know you won't get an answer - either way he answers he cant work out which will make him look the bigger fool

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

windowswashed

  • Posts: 2509
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2021, 10:02:50 pm »
Started wfp back in 2002 and no one else around was doing it so had a hard time trying to sell it to customers but commercial were fine with it. Figured out how to wfp by trial and error, even how to fix a van in tank all the other wfp  stuff to  learn with no videos on you tube or the clean it up forum haha.

Stoots

  • Posts: 5986
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2021, 06:39:44 am »
Most of us probably learned by trial and error.

The first ever window I cleaned was my mums kitchen window. I spent ages cleaning it and it dried awful. I could now clean it it 20 seconds and it will look fine. I'm not quite sure how I got there but the difference in speed these days is a million miles from where I started. 

Takes a long time, most of us won't have the patience for an employee to get there.

james peters

  • Posts: 931
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2021, 07:22:56 pm »
Started wfp back in 2002 and no one else around was doing it so had a hard time trying to sell it to customers but commercial were fine with it. Figured out how to wfp by trial and error, even how to fix a van in tank all the other wfp  stuff to  learn with no videos on you tube or the clean it up forum haha.

great post . same here I had been trad for 13 years , and went wfp in 2005, it took me a while to suss it out, and sell it to my customers .
like you say , there was no cleanitup, no you tube and no othe wfp guys around.
I started by just doing the upstairs with the pole , but after a few months was doing everything wfp.
its far easier to learn than trad with the right help.

my daughter picked it up within a few weeks .
When she started I explained how it works whilst showing her, I explained about the frames needing to be done , I explained about the dirt in the vents , and explained about first cleans . I also told her not to worry about speed , but to concentrate on quality, and always getting it right.

those first few weeks  we went through water like it was going out of fashion. yes it was a little frustrating at first , but within  about a month she was up to speed , and doing a thorough job.
the customers also gave great feed back.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2021, 04:08:39 pm »
The thing to do is to take people on regular cleans that don’t get too bad each clean before they have any idea what they are doing,if you are one of those cleaners that leave the top frame black each clean you’d have problems but not if you do everything each clean as there’s less dirt to run off the frame and onto the glass.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2021, 04:13:35 pm »
I can’t say I’ve ever had a problem with vents tbh it’s all about doing them everytime you clean them eventually they shouldn’t cause grief.

Slacky

  • Posts: 7552
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2021, 06:21:30 pm »
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it sometimes we all think Whoops they look awful after a clean,imagine what it’ll be like this time of the year with a newbie with low sun lol.

Why lol at the end, is there a joke/punch line I’ve missed?

Smudger

  • Posts: 13164
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2021, 06:26:50 pm »
Just Nigels little world he thinks every post is comical - which it is but not the way he thinks

Darran
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

www.oddbodscleaning.co.uk

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2021, 07:55:12 pm »
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it sometimes we all think Whoops they look awful after a clean,imagine what it’ll be like this time of the year with a newbie with low sun lol.

Why lol at the end, is there a joke/punch line I’ve missed?

The joke is in the fact that some people think they can train someone to WFP in the yard in 30 minutes to a paying standard,good luck with that but in the main it ain’t happening I see people that have been doing it years the wrong way but you can take a horse to water and all that.
Some days it reminds of blokes I used to watch blading every single window in sections,again waste of time telling fools the easy way to do things.

Dry Clean

  • Posts: 8428
Re: How long to learn WFP to a good standard?
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2021, 08:16:54 pm »
Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it sometimes we all think Whoops they look awful after a clean,imagine what it’ll be like this time of the year with a newbie with low sun lol.

Why lol at the end, is there a joke/punch line I’ve missed?

The joke is in the fact that some people think they can train someone to WFP in the yard in 30 minutes to a paying standard,good luck with that but in the main it ain’t happening I see people that have been doing it years the wrong way but you can take a horse to water and all that.
Some days it reminds of blokes I used to watch blading every single window in sections,again waste of time telling fools the easy way to do things.
;D