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mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 11:59:54 pm »
Hello chris, doing it this way, with it being a drain tube u soaked it in, it must of took ages to pure the solution into the end of the membrane? in order to let it soak in? as they are so compressed. But maybe putting it straight into a long planter/trough would submerse it completely and i guess you would have to top it up when the membrane absorbs the fluid? Do you remember the hg cleaner to water mix you used mate? as i think this is something that could easily go wrong, but thanks 4 your help.
Just another thing the very helpful june at gaps water said, that if anything being in a very hard water area like myself (410ppm) limescale build up would help make the holes smaller more than anything (my words). It makes a bit of sense, so i think it may be another chemical in that link i posted that needs to be used? Hopefully before a few of us try this, their may be someone out there (apart you chris) who has some more additional info on this. Many thanks m

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2019, 12:04:51 am »
Yep, suck it and see ( not literally though )
HG descaler seems a safe bet though from the post by Chris.
I've a membrane given to me that was producing at 25 ppm currently submerged in pure in a soil pipe, when I get some descaler in the next couple of days I shall soak it for atleast 24 hrs before swapping my one out for it. If it drops by 12 or more ( mine when new was 7 ppm and same membrane ) that would be pretty conclusive.


Soak it for 24 hours then flush for at least 30 mins with booster pump off, then switch on booster for 10 mins of flushing.  I think the higher pressure flush at the end helps clear contaminants.
Good advice, thanks, I'll let you know how I get on.

Anyone know  if I stored a spare membrane submerged in a sealed tube of pure water whether it would "keep" ?
Seeing as I now have 2 membranes which I'll hopefully be able to clean, I was thinking I could alternate between them every 6 months e.g. as ones tds rises swap it out for the clean one and repeat the process ?

Seamus ODwyer

  • Posts: 38
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2019, 05:37:51 pm »
i did consider using hg myself, as its obviously limescale that blocked my filter, my fault for not using a water softener and back washing everyday with salt.
however i went out and bought two membranes as i fear the damage is too great im too late.
after some reserach i see i could also have improved my back wash techniques,  i never tested the output of the backwash i should have checked the backwash until i get the same ppm as tap water.
Also now hears the big reason i never tried hg! well i know it will react very viciously with metals it will bubble so much it will tear your membrane to pieces, however there is a solution  you can use , SALT!!
you can backwash with salt using your high pressure pump, membranes remove salt salt will loosen the metals, i dont expect it will fix a blocked filter but improve it and service it prevent it getting blocked.
A 30 second blast of Salty solution is the proper way to backflush then backwash
Im also adding a 25lt can of acid washed carbon granulated media as cartridges are no way up to the job, i then be checking the ph and nitrate levels  is ok lol
May god forgive me if i put extra salt briney solution in my 4040s and deliver me pure water for eternity :) as for the poor guy who got roasted using caustic bloody soda my god did you mean to use soda crystals cos they wood be ace i bet but still very strong stuff, soda kills algae nicely too
caustic soda is bloody dangerous it boils up instantly , dropped on the floor it will eat through the floorboards etc put it on you it will eat right through you, its the strongest alkali so you probably need acid vinegar to neutralise it. if you ever need to unblock a drain it will save you digging up the pipes but never play with it empty it all out and run never leave it in your house
i swear my water rejection rate is different now my soft water flows lovely i have two 4040s and only need one, i got it all on a converted ionics trolley on a skid inside my land rover with only a small holding tank, i dont want to carry too much weight ever i buried a cousin this year from his lorry accident i dont want to be next. i have a honda  silent generator for the boost! the line of filters is growing and i have about 6 extra tubes to fill if i can get any more water pressure i will add more filter medias





Seamus ODwyer

  • Posts: 38
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2019, 11:34:47 pm »
basically i intend to keep an eye on the backwash water when i cant backwash it down to tap tds  i will clean with salt, and dont put limescale remover in a metal cannister it will blow up with nitrogen from when the acid reaction with metal ions

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2019, 08:22:04 pm »
Im still going to try chris's tried and tested method of using hg quick descaler for coffee machines, kettles, washing machines etc. Only because it has worked for him on his 20" R.O (one 500ml bottle), so its worth a go. And this Hg Quick descaler seems to be a less harsh limescale cleaner, as its used to clean our drinking devices, than say maybe a viakal (i use this great product loads) or the higher strength ones which could cause irreversible damage? Ive also googled 'citric acid membrane cleaning' and was surprised to read on one site, that this can even wreck a membrane? i would have thought this to be a safe bet as its a natural cleaning agent?  Anyway ive picked up the HG quick descaler from b&que (two 500ml bottles 11 for my 40"). I cannot find a long enough plastic planter available anywhere on the net, at 40" + (1.02m) within cost, and if you did find one, it would have to be at least 44" for clearance, so unless you try and cut & shut, and glue one together maybe, forget the long plastic plant pot idea for a 40"er. I have now decided to make a trough (troff) out of cheap mdf (6 wickes) then proof paint it, so i can completely submerge it in the cleaner for the 24hrs like chris did. In the meantime maybe 'The big kahuna' (hmmm thats a tasty burger ;)) can advise us if he gets the results a little bit quicker?  :)

chris turner

  • Posts: 1342
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2019, 10:08:23 am »
Im still going to try chris's tried and tested method of using hg quick descaler for coffee machines, kettles, washing machines etc. Only because it has worked for him on his 20" R.O (one 500ml bottle), so its worth a go. And this Hg Quick descaler seems to be a less harsh limescale cleaner, as its used to clean our drinking devices, than say maybe a viakal (i use this great product loads) or the higher strength ones which could cause irreversible damage? Ive also googled 'citric acid membrane cleaning' and was surprised to read on one site, that this can even wreck a membrane? i would have thought this to be a safe bet as its a natural cleaning agent?  Anyway ive picked up the HG quick descaler from b&que (two 500ml bottles 11 for my 40"). I cannot find a long enough plastic planter available anywhere on the net, at 40" + (1.02m) within cost, and if you did find one, it would have to be at least 44" for clearance, so unless you try and cut & shut, and glue one together maybe, forget the long plastic plant pot idea for a 40"er. I have now decided to make a trough (troff) out of cheap mdf (6 wickes) then proof paint it, so i can completely submerge it in the cleaner for the 24hrs like chris did. In the meantime maybe 'The big kahuna' (hmmm thats a tasty burger ;)) can advise us if he gets the results a little bit quicker?  :)

This would do nicely, can get them anywhere as well...
https://www.staples.co.uk/plastic-storage/cbs/224713091.html?price=incvat&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkY3EoPGY5QIVE6maCh1wgAjkEAkYBCABEgJXEvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

chris turner

  • Posts: 1342
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2019, 10:14:33 am »
Also you asked about how much ratios for water/descaler etc, honestly I didn't measure.
I was going to bin the membrane so I would thought give cleaning a whirl first.
I popped the membrane in, filled with enough pure to cover the membrane then poured in a whole bottle of descaler. Also I put a door stop on top of the membrane to hold it under water. There was nothing precise in anything I did, it was really just a test but produced better then expected results and saved me 200.

Seamus ODwyer

  • Posts: 38
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2019, 01:08:23 pm »
i usually use the blue hg which is strongest stuff for limescale on glass and rubber seals!, it works better than viakal, i guess the brown hg for descaling coffee machines is weaker i usually dilute the blue 1 5-1 on glass 10-1 on rubber seals and not in hotweather! .....good luck with the brown hg, well done Chris i might as well try it (the brown hg)
on my old ones when i get some i let you know the results  thanks! the acid does react i guess it depends on what your filters holding, i wouldnt ignore the softeners though or the charcoal

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2019, 09:04:05 pm »
Mac74 you don't need to make a wooden painted box or a 20 Xmas tree box. I already posted what you need. A 1 meter length of soil pipe and an end cap, fits a 4040 membrane perfectly and will cost you about a tenner.

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2019, 09:12:37 pm »

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2019, 09:20:02 pm »
My local B&q only had the HG  blue super concentrate in so I've used 250 ml probably diluted  approx 1:5 in the soil pipe enough to submerge the membrane. If I kill it, no matters, it's a spare given to me that had a tds of 25 ppm. I'm leaving it overnight and swapping out and flushing tomorrow. I'll let ya know.....

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2019, 10:43:16 pm »
My local B&q only had the HG  blue super concentrate in so I've used 250 ml probably diluted  approx 1:5 in the soil pipe enough to submerge the membrane. If I kill it, no matters, it's a spare given to me that had a tds of 25 ppm. I'm leaving it overnight and swapping out and flushing tomorrow. I'll let ya know.....
Hello mate, that soil pipe and end cap from s fix is a 1m? which is slightly smaller than the R.O's 40"s, (1m just under 39.5") im amazed u have that much top clearance on the photo, or is that a sml extension at the top of yours? I might just get this if it fits then, or i could just as well just use my plastic champ membrane housing, by opening one end, and then blocking the single inlet off, so the fluid holds in there? I discarded this pipe type of idea as i would have thought it would take ages to pure to solution into it, absorption wise? Or am i missing something? B.K im looking forward to your results, Good Luck. To all watching, the HG 500ml quick descaler (From Chris T's earlier answer) will make 5L's of cleaning solution when cut with water. But now lets see how B.K's 250ml strong blue HG mix works?  Cheers m

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2019, 11:12:01 pm »
It does have an extra socket adapter on it so I can put a blanking cap on both ends and store a membrane for extended periods in pure water. However it is a 1 meter length + built in socket on one end. If you only want that and one blanking end cap it is sufficient to submerge the membrane in. I'm not really understanding your concern at it taking ages to soak through membrane. Water bubbled up through it pretty instantly and was submerged fully. Makes no difference whether vertical or laid horizontal in a plastic container or planter from what I can see.

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2019, 11:30:01 pm »
It does have an extra socket adapter on it so I can put a blanking cap on both ends and store a membrane for extended periods in pure water. However it is a 1 meter length + built in socket on one end. If you only want that and one blanking end cap it is sufficient to submerge the membrane in. I'm not really understanding your concern at it taking ages to soak through membrane. Water bubbled up through it pretty instantly and was submerged fully. Makes no difference whether vertical or laid horizontal in a plastic container or planter from what I can see.
Ok mate, i just thought the membrane would be so tightly made, that it would take ages for the water/solution to get to everywhere inside it, without being pumped through. So your earlier post on the 2x s fix items is all thats needed to do what you have done in your photo's? But if the solution soaks in is fast? it makes me wonder what the difference is, by just using my plastic champ housing i have, and blocking it off at the base, OR putting a fitted bag with elastic bands on the base of the R.O itself, and filling it standing upright as much as possible, its only over night. Looking forward 2 your results B.K. Thanks m

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2019, 05:56:34 pm »
IT'S WORKED !

"is it worth it ?"
YES

24 hrs soaked in HG descaler and I'm making pure at 10 ppm with a better flow on the same settings as before.
Worth bearing in mind though that the membrane that was given to me was apparently producing 25 ppm prior to that but not seen it for myself.

A big thank you Chris for the tip, that's what this forum is all about 👍

Mac 74, one thing with the soil pipe method, I've noticed since swapping out my membranes, a slight difference in their diameters. The first one dropped straight in with no real effort, the second one that I've just put in it in pure to store it was very tight, same as removing it from the housing ( wasn't very easy ) But none the less, its worked very effectively.

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2019, 07:35:08 pm »
IT'S WORKED !
24 hrs soaked in HG descaler and I'm making pure at 10 ppm with a better flow on the same settings as before.
Worth bearing in mind though that the membrane that was given to me was apparently producing 25 ppm prior to that but not seen it for myself.

A big thank you Chris for the tip, that's what this forum is all about 👍

Mac 74, one thing with the soil pipe method, I've noticed since swapping out my membranes, a slight difference in their diameters. The first one dropped straight in with no real effort, the second one that I've just put in it in pure to store it was very tight, same as removing it from the housing ( wasn't very easy ) But none the less, its worked very effectively.
Thats great news, and a big difference from 25 to 10ppm. Not to worry about the soil pipe, (although i would have done this) because ive currently got mine in soak upright in its own plastic champ housing, using the weaker Hg quick descaler. I used a 500ml bottle and a bit from another, about 700ml solution in all, (making it a little stronger mix) and with water it took about 5L. When my Axeon 40" was new 2 yrs ago it started at 10/12ppm with the tap water in @ 35psi, then 1000w boosted to find my sweet spot at around 70psi, to give me that 10/12ppm, this is from a 410tds in. Before this cleaning experiment it had risen to 28ppm after the 2yrs ive had it, so it will be interesting to see the results with fingers crossed. If its not that good (given my v bad water quality) then i might use the Hg blue pro limescale remover now knowing BK got a good result with it, but i hope i dont need to. How long did u flush to waste for afterwards btw?

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2019, 08:55:51 pm »
I flushed the membrane to waste as Chris suggested for 30 mins as well as taking the opportunity to change the pre filters and di. After 30 mins I put the booster pump on for 10 mins and continued to flush. Within 30 mins of producing pure the tds went down further to 8 ppm but seems to being running stable now at 9/10 ppm. It maybe short lived, I'd expect it to slowly creep up. But now I have two membranes that I can clean and alternate every 6 months vastly extending their life and saving me a few 100 's.  ;)

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2019, 09:33:12 pm »
I flushed the membrane to waste as Chris suggested for 30 mins as well as taking the opportunity to change the pre filters and di. After 30 mins I put the booster pump on for 10 mins and continued to flush. Within 30 mins of producing pure the tds went down further to 8 ppm but seems to being running stable now at 9/10 ppm. It maybe short lived, I'd expect it to slowly creep up. But now I have two membranes that I can clean and alternate every 6 months vastly extending their life and saving me a few 100 's.  ;)
Cool, i was just wondering what your tds in is? i dont suppose u know what it was on that 25ppm membrane you bought 2nd hand do u?

The Big Kahuna

  • Posts: 296
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2019, 09:39:05 pm »
The membrane was given to me by a mate 2 miles from me, probably exactly the same quality. Can't remember tap tds without digging out my handheld meter but approx around 320 ish.

mac74

  • Posts: 316
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2019, 09:49:19 pm »
The membrane was given to me by a mate 2 miles from me, probably exactly the same quality. Can't remember tap tds without digging out my handheld meter but approx around 320 ish.
Thanks, i will let all know my results tomorrow.