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mac74

  • Posts: 481
4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« on: October 05, 2019, 11:44:16 pm »
Hello all,
My 40" axeon R O unit, when new was making water, @ 12ppm from a boosted 70psi  (400 tds in). And 2 years on its now pumping out 25ppm @ the same 70psi. As resin is close to £100 a sack now, im thinking of just changing the R O @ £250inc ish again. Or has anyone cleaned one, to get another year out of one? By just putting them in a soak cleaner for 24hrs or something? or anything?

andyM

  • Posts: 6100
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2019, 08:10:12 am »
If you read your own previous post you will see that someone has gone to the trouble of posting a link by Chris Turner of how he did it.
One of the Plebs

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2019, 10:15:24 am »
I know someone that has had a 40x40 for 10 years or so and they flush it maybe 4-5 times a year have 2 pre filters they change about every 3 months,it still gives them 3-6 PPM in there tank.
As soon as he changes the pre filters it goes back down to 2-3 PPM and stays like that for ages.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2019, 11:48:00 am »
If you read your own previous post you will see that someone has gone to the trouble of posting a link by Chris Turner of how he did it.
I missed that, thanks

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2019, 11:53:26 am »
I've not had time to try it myself yet as got a busy week and don't want to faff with my 4040 whilst it's working adequately. I will post whether it worked for me using the stuff Chris recommended later but for a fiver as he says, it's worth a try.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2019, 11:58:52 am »
I've not had time to try it myself yet as got a busy week and don't want to faff with my 4040 whilst it's working adequately. I will post whether it worked for me using the stuff Chris recommended later but for a fiver as he says, it's worth a try.
Nice one, i will keep a eye on this. thanks m

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 05:41:30 pm »
Hi mac, I can confirm cleaning does work.
My membrane had risen into the 20s, after a 24 hour soak in a descaling solution mixed into pure water, followed by a 40 min flush, tds dropped back down to 13.
That was a couple of weeks ago and tds is still 13...

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3843
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 06:34:50 pm »
Hi mac, I can confirm cleaning does work.
My membrane had risen into the 20s, after a 24 hour soak in a descaling solution mixed into pure water, followed by a 40 min flush, tds dropped back down to 13.
That was a couple of weeks ago and tds is still 13...

What descaling solution did you use and what ratio to water did you make it to.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 06:41:40 pm »
Hi mac, I can confirm cleaning does work.
My membrane had risen into the 20s, after a 24 hour soak in a descaling solution mixed into pure water, followed by a 40 min flush, tds dropped back down to 13.
That was a couple of weeks ago and tds is still 13...
Thanks chris, as above what ratio of water/cleaner? and was it HG descaler 100ml solution u used? OR maybe a viakal 500ml could be used instead as ive already got this? Im going to call gaps water 2moro to see what they suggest. Ive got nothing to lose really as its at 25ppm anyway. cheers m

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 10:12:58 pm »
I used hg quick descaler. Its actually designed for hot water appliances such washing machines, kettles etc but worked very well for me.
I poured a full bottle into one of the pots below,  filled with pure, dropped in the membrane and left for 24 hours..
https://www.diy.com/departments/florus-rectangular-black-bell-trough-h-200mm-l-890mm/1886637_BQ.prd

P.s this isn't the exact pot I used, you need something longer for 4040 membranes, this is just an example.
Something like "really useful storage boxes" would work well, look them up..

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 11:08:10 pm »
I used hg quick descaler. Its actually designed for hot water appliances such washing machines, kettles etc but worked very well for me.
I poured a full bottle into one of the pots below,  filled with pure, dropped in the membrane and left for 24 hours..
https://www.diy.com/departments/florus-rectangular-black-bell-trough-h-200mm-l-890mm/1886637_BQ.prd

P.s this isn't the exact pot I used, you need something longer for 4040 membranes, this is just an example.
Something like "really useful storage boxes" would work well, look them up..
Thanks mate, i dont think the long plant thing would do, as it would need to be about 1100mm / 43.5 inchs to submerge it completely, because the base of these planters are smaller than the top. But i will look into this 2moro anyway. Cheers m.

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2019, 07:11:06 am »
I used hg quick descaler. Its actually designed for hot water appliances such washing machines, kettles etc but worked very well for me.
I poured a full bottle into one of the pots below,  filled with pure, dropped in the membrane and left for 24 hours..
https://www.diy.com/departments/florus-rectangular-black-bell-trough-h-200mm-l-890mm/1886637_BQ.prd

P.s this isn't the exact pot I used, you need something longer for 4040 membranes, this is just an example.
Something like "really useful storage boxes" would work well, look them up..
Thanks mate, i dont think the long plant thing would do, as it would need to be about 1100mm / 43.5 inchs to submerge it completely, because the base of these planters are smaller than the top. But i will look into this 2moro anyway. Cheers m.
I made a container for mine. All available from screw fix etc. for £10
1 meter soil pipe
1  x  soil  pipe  blanking cap for the base
It fits a 4040 membrane very well, not dissimilar to its housing meaning you won't need a huge volume to submerge it. 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-sp8b-soil-pipe-single-socket-black-110mm-x-1m/79994

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-sp296-socket-plug-black/46863

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2019, 08:25:27 pm »
I spoke to gaps water 2day and june said i could try this:  empty the pre filters, put some cleaner in and turn the water on so it flushes right through. But after thinking about it im going to try this maybe? Part fill the base of a 220L drum i have with cleaner and water.  Leave the R.O in its case. Then put in a submersible pump in and connect it to the R.O inlet, with the waste and to tank outlets back into the barrel so it will cycle in a loop. Maybe let it run for 30 mins, then let it rest for a few hours with the cleaner/water mix still inside, then flush it? If i f**k it, then im going to give the Hydranautics ESPA4-LD 4040 membrane a try, as it supposedly rejects a little better than a Axeon.  Plus it has some anti fouling tech or something (probably boll*cks).

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2019, 09:12:32 pm »
I spoke to gaps water 2day and june said i could try this:  empty the pre filters, put some cleaner in and turn the water on so it flushes right through. But after thinking about it im going to try this maybe? Part fill the base of a 220L drum i have with cleaner and water.  Leave the R.O in its case. Then put in a submersible pump in and connect it to the R.O inlet, with the waste and to tank outlets back into the barrel so it will cycle in a loop. Maybe let it run for 30 mins, then let it rest for a few hours with the cleaner/water mix still inside, then flush it? If i f**k it, then im going to give the Hydranautics ESPA4-LD 4040 membrane a try, as it supposedly rejects a little better than a Axeon.  Plus it has some anti fouling tech or something (probably boll*cks).
I suppose any of the 3 ways will work. Will one work better than the others ?... I don't know.
I'm going with Chris's way, for one thing it gives you the chance to check the membrane over for damage ( check the other post about the damaged pentair membranes ). I'm wondering if you are over thinking it, you can't get simpler than dumping it in a bucket of descaler overnight.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2019, 09:31:02 pm »
Yes it would be easier, but i was thinking if the solution would reach all parts of the membrane without pumping it through? Its tightly packed together in there, but water will get to everywhere if left long enough i guess. Also have a look at this:    https://www.gapswater.co.uk/acatalog/sroinstall.pdf        I wonder what the correct cleaning solution ratio is?

CleanClear

  • Posts: 14210
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2019, 10:36:39 pm »
I done a bit of reading and research over this and there's allsorts of info out there. But i suppose a lot of it is "suck it and see".. I was tempted to try Citric Acid as a membrane descaler, seemed to tick all the boxes. Can't remember why i didn't try it, but it will be my next method to try. I did clean a membrane out with caustic soda. I disconnected the 40 40 membrane, tipped it on its side and filled it with caustic solution from a bucket. Half hour later i opened the tap and let all the fluid out..........it came out looking like a pint of Guiness . Definatley cleaned it, but the TDS went worse !! I.e it didn't do the membrane any good, so i bought a new membrane. When i let the fluid out, it spilt onto my leg, 18 months later i still have a big scar.

I would totally disagee with Spruce when he says along the lines of..." as the membrane gets older the pores get bigger and let more stuff through" (not verbatim) , i think that as they get older they get fouled and clogged with bacteria etc... so more goes to waste that way and less gets through.

So caustic soda is a big no no , or so i've experienced. Be good to see if anyone else would be willing to give a shot to trying summat  else before they bin their membrane ?
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CleanClear

  • Posts: 14210
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2019, 10:39:37 pm »
Should also go without saying , but i'll say it anyway as i don't trust window cleaners for scientific accuracy....... do NOT put any form of bleach or hypo near your membrane. That will definatley kill it.
*Status*--------Currently Online---------

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2019, 11:10:27 pm »
Yep, suck it and see ( not literally though )
HG descaler seems a safe bet though from the post by Chris.
I've a membrane given to me that was producing at 25 ppm currently submerged in pure in a soil pipe, when I get some descaler in the next couple of days I shall soak it for atleast 24 hrs before swapping my one out for it. If it drops by 12 or more ( mine when new was 7 ppm and same membrane but now at about 20 ) that would be pretty conclusive.

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2019, 11:11:12 pm »
I done a bit of reading and research over this and there's allsorts of info out there. But i suppose a lot of it is "suck it and see".. I was tempted to try Citric Acid as a membrane descaler, seemed to tick all the boxes. Can't remember why i didn't try it, but it will be my next method to try. I did clean a membrane out with caustic soda. I disconnected the 40 40 membrane, tipped it on its side and filled it with caustic solution from a bucket. Half hour later i opened the tap and let all the fluid out..........it came out looking like a pint of Guiness . Definatley cleaned it, but the TDS went worse !! I.e it didn't do the membrane any good, so i bought a new membrane. When i let the fluid out, it spilt onto my leg, 18 months later i still have a big scar.

I would totally disagee with Spruce when he says along the lines of..." as the membrane gets older the pores get bigger and let more stuff through" (not verbatim) , i think that as they get older they get fouled and clogged with bacteria etc... so more goes to waste that way and less gets through.

So caustic soda is a big no no , or so i've experienced. Be good to see if anyone else would be willing to give a shot to trying summat  else before they bin their membrane ?

As I already said, soaking in a decent limescale remover works a treat. In fact it seems to be still working, my tds has now dropped down to 11, a couple of weeks after treatment where it dropped from 25 down to 13.
Aa for bleach, using it to clean the inside of the housing is fine, as well as the outside of the membrane itself.  Definitely don't run it through the membrane though..

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2019, 11:14:15 pm »
Yep, suck it and see ( not literally though )
HG descaler seems a safe bet though from the post by Chris.
I've a membrane given to me that was producing at 25 ppm currently submerged in pure in a soil pipe, when I get some descaler in the next couple of days I shall soak it for atleast 24 hrs before swapping my one out for it. If it drops by 12 or more ( mine when new was 7 ppm and same membrane ) that would be pretty conclusive.

Soak it for 24 hours then flush for at least 30 mins with booster pump off, then switch on booster for 10 mins of flushing.  I think the higher pressure flush at the end helps clear contaminants.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 11:59:54 pm »
Hello chris, doing it this way, with it being a drain tube u soaked it in, it must of took ages to pure the solution into the end of the membrane? in order to let it soak in? as they are so compressed. But maybe putting it straight into a long planter/trough would submerse it completely and i guess you would have to top it up when the membrane absorbs the fluid? Do you remember the hg cleaner to water mix you used mate? as i think this is something that could easily go wrong, but thanks 4 your help.
Just another thing the very helpful june at gaps water said, that if anything being in a very hard water area like myself (410ppm) limescale build up would help make the holes smaller more than anything (my words). It makes a bit of sense, so i think it may be another chemical in that link i posted that needs to be used? Hopefully before a few of us try this, their may be someone out there (apart you chris) who has some more additional info on this. Many thanks m

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2019, 12:04:51 am »
Yep, suck it and see ( not literally though )
HG descaler seems a safe bet though from the post by Chris.
I've a membrane given to me that was producing at 25 ppm currently submerged in pure in a soil pipe, when I get some descaler in the next couple of days I shall soak it for atleast 24 hrs before swapping my one out for it. If it drops by 12 or more ( mine when new was 7 ppm and same membrane ) that would be pretty conclusive.


Soak it for 24 hours then flush for at least 30 mins with booster pump off, then switch on booster for 10 mins of flushing.  I think the higher pressure flush at the end helps clear contaminants.
Good advice, thanks, I'll let you know how I get on.

Anyone know  if I stored a spare membrane submerged in a sealed tube of pure water whether it would "keep" ?
Seeing as I now have 2 membranes which I'll hopefully be able to clean, I was thinking I could alternate between them every 6 months e.g. as ones tds rises swap it out for the clean one and repeat the process ?

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2019, 05:37:51 pm »
i did consider using hg myself, as its obviously limescale that blocked my filter, my fault for not using a water softener and back washing everyday with salt.
however i went out and bought two membranes as i fear the damage is too great im too late.
after some reserach i see i could also have improved my back wash techniques,  i never tested the output of the backwash i should have checked the backwash until i get the same ppm as tap water.
Also now hears the big reason i never tried hg! well i know it will react very viciously with metals it will bubble so much it will tear your membrane to pieces, however there is a solution  you can use , SALT!!
you can backwash with salt using your high pressure pump, membranes remove salt salt will loosen the metals, i dont expect it will fix a blocked filter but improve it and service it prevent it getting blocked.
A 30 second blast of Salty solution is the proper way to backflush then backwash
Im also adding a 25lt can of acid washed carbon granulated media as cartridges are no way up to the job, i then be checking the ph and nitrate levels  is ok lol
May god forgive me if i put extra salt briney solution in my 4040s and deliver me pure water for eternity :) as for the poor guy who got roasted using caustic bloody soda my god did you mean to use soda crystals cos they wood be ace i bet but still very strong stuff, soda kills algae nicely too
caustic soda is bloody dangerous it boils up instantly , dropped on the floor it will eat through the floorboards etc put it on you it will eat right through you, its the strongest alkali so you probably need acid vinegar to neutralise it. if you ever need to unblock a drain it will save you digging up the pipes but never play with it empty it all out and run never leave it in your house
i swear my water rejection rate is different now my soft water flows lovely i have two 4040s and only need one, i got it all on a converted ionics trolley on a skid inside my land rover with only a small holding tank, i dont want to carry too much weight ever i buried a cousin this year from his lorry accident i dont want to be next. i have a honda  silent generator for the boost! the line of filters is growing and i have about 6 extra tubes to fill if i can get any more water pressure i will add more filter medias





Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2019, 11:34:47 pm »
basically i intend to keep an eye on the backwash water when i cant backwash it down to tap tds  i will clean with salt, and dont put limescale remover in a metal cannister it will blow up with nitrogen from when the acid reaction with metal ions

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2019, 08:22:04 pm »
Im still going to try chris's tried and tested method of using hg quick descaler for coffee machines, kettles, washing machines etc. Only because it has worked for him on his 20" R.O (one 500ml bottle), so its worth a go. And this Hg Quick descaler seems to be a less harsh limescale cleaner, as its used to clean our drinking devices, than say maybe a viakal (i use this great product loads) or the higher strength ones which could cause irreversible damage? Ive also googled 'citric acid membrane cleaning' and was surprised to read on one site, that this can even wreck a membrane? i would have thought this to be a safe bet as its a natural cleaning agent?  Anyway ive picked up the HG quick descaler from b&que (two 500ml bottles £11 for my 40"). I cannot find a long enough plastic planter available anywhere on the net, at 40" + (1.02m) within cost, and if you did find one, it would have to be at least 44" for clearance, so unless you try and cut & shut, and glue one together maybe, forget the long plastic plant pot idea for a 40"er. I have now decided to make a trough (troff) out of cheap mdf (£6 wickes) then proof paint it, so i can completely submerge it in the cleaner for the 24hrs like chris did. In the meantime maybe 'The big kahuna' (hmmm thats a tasty burger ;)) can advise us if he gets the results a little bit quicker?  :)

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2019, 10:08:23 am »
Im still going to try chris's tried and tested method of using hg quick descaler for coffee machines, kettles, washing machines etc. Only because it has worked for him on his 20" R.O (one 500ml bottle), so its worth a go. And this Hg Quick descaler seems to be a less harsh limescale cleaner, as its used to clean our drinking devices, than say maybe a viakal (i use this great product loads) or the higher strength ones which could cause irreversible damage? Ive also googled 'citric acid membrane cleaning' and was surprised to read on one site, that this can even wreck a membrane? i would have thought this to be a safe bet as its a natural cleaning agent?  Anyway ive picked up the HG quick descaler from b&que (two 500ml bottles £11 for my 40"). I cannot find a long enough plastic planter available anywhere on the net, at 40" + (1.02m) within cost, and if you did find one, it would have to be at least 44" for clearance, so unless you try and cut & shut, and glue one together maybe, forget the long plastic plant pot idea for a 40"er. I have now decided to make a trough (troff) out of cheap mdf (£6 wickes) then proof paint it, so i can completely submerge it in the cleaner for the 24hrs like chris did. In the meantime maybe 'The big kahuna' (hmmm thats a tasty burger ;)) can advise us if he gets the results a little bit quicker?  :)

This would do nicely, can get them anywhere as well...
https://www.staples.co.uk/plastic-storage/cbs/224713091.html?price=incvat&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkY3EoPGY5QIVE6maCh1wgAjkEAkYBCABEgJXEvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

chris turner

  • Posts: 1488
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2019, 10:14:33 am »
Also you asked about how much ratios for water/descaler etc, honestly I didn't measure.
I was going to bin the membrane so I would thought give cleaning a whirl first.
I popped the membrane in, filled with enough pure to cover the membrane then poured in a whole bottle of descaler. Also I put a door stop on top of the membrane to hold it under water. There was nothing precise in anything I did, it was really just a test but produced better then expected results and saved me £200.

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2019, 01:08:23 pm »
i usually use the blue hg which is strongest stuff for limescale on glass and rubber seals!, it works better than viakal, i guess the brown hg for descaling coffee machines is weaker i usually dilute the blue 1 5-1 on glass 10-1 on rubber seals and not in hotweather! .....good luck with the brown hg, well done Chris i might as well try it (the brown hg)
on my old ones when i get some i let you know the results  thanks! the acid does react i guess it depends on what your filters holding, i wouldnt ignore the softeners though or the charcoal

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2019, 09:04:05 pm »
Mac74 you don't need to make a wooden painted box or a £20 Xmas tree box. I already posted what you need. A 1 meter length of soil pipe and an end cap, fits a 4040 membrane perfectly and will cost you about a tenner.

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2019, 09:12:37 pm »

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2019, 09:20:02 pm »
My local B&q only had the HG  blue super concentrate in so I've used 250 ml probably diluted  approx 1:5 in the soil pipe enough to submerge the membrane. If I kill it, no matters, it's a spare given to me that had a tds of 25 ppm. I'm leaving it overnight and swapping out and flushing tomorrow. I'll let ya know.....

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2019, 10:43:16 pm »
My local B&q only had the HG  blue super concentrate in so I've used 250 ml probably diluted  approx 1:5 in the soil pipe enough to submerge the membrane. If I kill it, no matters, it's a spare given to me that had a tds of 25 ppm. I'm leaving it overnight and swapping out and flushing tomorrow. I'll let ya know.....
Hello mate, that soil pipe and end cap from s fix is a 1m? which is slightly smaller than the R.O's 40"s, (1m just under 39.5") im amazed u have that much top clearance on the photo, or is that a sml extension at the top of yours? I might just get this if it fits then, or i could just as well just use my plastic champ membrane housing, by opening one end, and then blocking the single inlet off, so the fluid holds in there? I discarded this pipe type of idea as i would have thought it would take ages to pure to solution into it, absorption wise? Or am i missing something? B.K im looking forward to your results, Good Luck. To all watching, the HG 500ml quick descaler (From Chris T's earlier answer) will make 5L's of cleaning solution when cut with water. But now lets see how B.K's 250ml strong blue HG mix works?  Cheers m

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2019, 11:12:01 pm »
It does have an extra socket adapter on it so I can put a blanking cap on both ends and store a membrane for extended periods in pure water. However it is a 1 meter length + built in socket on one end. If you only want that and one blanking end cap it is sufficient to submerge the membrane in. I'm not really understanding your concern at it taking ages to soak through membrane. Water bubbled up through it pretty instantly and was submerged fully. Makes no difference whether vertical or laid horizontal in a plastic container or planter from what I can see.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2019, 11:30:01 pm »
It does have an extra socket adapter on it so I can put a blanking cap on both ends and store a membrane for extended periods in pure water. However it is a 1 meter length + built in socket on one end. If you only want that and one blanking end cap it is sufficient to submerge the membrane in. I'm not really understanding your concern at it taking ages to soak through membrane. Water bubbled up through it pretty instantly and was submerged fully. Makes no difference whether vertical or laid horizontal in a plastic container or planter from what I can see.
Ok mate, i just thought the membrane would be so tightly made, that it would take ages for the water/solution to get to everywhere inside it, without being pumped through. So your earlier post on the 2x s fix items is all thats needed to do what you have done in your photo's? But if the solution soaks in is fast? it makes me wonder what the difference is, by just using my plastic champ housing i have, and blocking it off at the base, OR putting a fitted bag with elastic bands on the base of the R.O itself, and filling it standing upright as much as possible, its only over night. Looking forward 2 your results B.K. Thanks m

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2019, 05:56:34 pm »
IT'S WORKED !

"is it worth it ?"
YES

24 hrs soaked in HG descaler and I'm making pure at 10 ppm with a better flow on the same settings as before.
Worth bearing in mind though that the membrane that was given to me was apparently producing 25 ppm prior to that but not seen it for myself.

A big thank you Chris for the tip, that's what this forum is all about 👍

Mac 74, one thing with the soil pipe method, I've noticed since swapping out my membranes, a slight difference in their diameters. The first one dropped straight in with no real effort, the second one that I've just put in it in pure to store it was very tight, same as removing it from the housing ( wasn't very easy ) But none the less, its worked very effectively.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2019, 07:35:08 pm »
IT'S WORKED !
24 hrs soaked in HG descaler and I'm making pure at 10 ppm with a better flow on the same settings as before.
Worth bearing in mind though that the membrane that was given to me was apparently producing 25 ppm prior to that but not seen it for myself.

A big thank you Chris for the tip, that's what this forum is all about 👍

Mac 74, one thing with the soil pipe method, I've noticed since swapping out my membranes, a slight difference in their diameters. The first one dropped straight in with no real effort, the second one that I've just put in it in pure to store it was very tight, same as removing it from the housing ( wasn't very easy ) But none the less, its worked very effectively.
Thats great news, and a big difference from 25 to 10ppm. Not to worry about the soil pipe, (although i would have done this) because ive currently got mine in soak upright in its own plastic champ housing, using the weaker Hg quick descaler. I used a 500ml bottle and a bit from another, about 700ml solution in all, (making it a little stronger mix) and with water it took about 5L. When my Axeon 40" was new 2 yrs ago it started at 10/12ppm with the tap water in @ 35psi, then 1000w boosted to find my sweet spot at around 70psi, to give me that 10/12ppm, this is from a 410tds in. Before this cleaning experiment it had risen to 28ppm after the 2yrs ive had it, so it will be interesting to see the results with fingers crossed. If its not that good (given my v bad water quality) then i might use the Hg blue pro limescale remover now knowing BK got a good result with it, but i hope i dont need to. How long did u flush to waste for afterwards btw?

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2019, 08:55:51 pm »
I flushed the membrane to waste as Chris suggested for 30 mins as well as taking the opportunity to change the pre filters and di. After 30 mins I put the booster pump on for 10 mins and continued to flush. Within 30 mins of producing pure the tds went down further to 8 ppm but seems to being running stable now at 9/10 ppm. It maybe short lived, I'd expect it to slowly creep up. But now I have two membranes that I can clean and alternate every 6 months vastly extending their life and saving me a few 100 £'s.  ;)

mac74

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Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2019, 09:33:12 pm »
I flushed the membrane to waste as Chris suggested for 30 mins as well as taking the opportunity to change the pre filters and di. After 30 mins I put the booster pump on for 10 mins and continued to flush. Within 30 mins of producing pure the tds went down further to 8 ppm but seems to being running stable now at 9/10 ppm. It maybe short lived, I'd expect it to slowly creep up. But now I have two membranes that I can clean and alternate every 6 months vastly extending their life and saving me a few 100 £'s.  ;)
Cool, i was just wondering what your tds in is? i dont suppose u know what it was on that 25ppm membrane you bought 2nd hand do u?

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2019, 09:39:05 pm »
The membrane was given to me by a mate 2 miles from me, probably exactly the same quality. Can't remember tap tds without digging out my handheld meter but approx around 320 ish.

mac74

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Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2019, 09:49:19 pm »
The membrane was given to me by a mate 2 miles from me, probably exactly the same quality. Can't remember tap tds without digging out my handheld meter but approx around 320 ish.
Thanks, i will let all know my results tomorrow.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2019, 09:38:29 pm »
HAPPY DAYS!
Today i took the membrane out of soak, and cleaned the inside of the housing. I then put it back together & flushed it at tap pressure (35psi) for 20 mins, then i took membrane back out, and put it in the other way around (& switched the white rubber membrane seal to near end) and flushed again for 20 mins. Then striped down, and put back together as it was. The tds from tap pressure only was 32 tds! (good sign so far!) I changed the 20" pre filters yesterday, so i now connected the R.O unit back in, and flushed again with the 1000w draper booster pump on in its sweet spot @ 70psi (i also tried up to a 10 psi swing in both higher & lower psi directions). Its NOW 17ppm down from 28ppm!!! A great result! as it will probably drop another 1 or 2 tds when it settles in, and if i get another year out of it, then great. Also the next time i buy a new membrane, i will be tempted to do this again, but after just 1 year when the tds rises, and again with this lower strength cleaner. Maybe in hindsight  i could of gone with the higher strength HG blue pro cleaner? on THIS membrane. BUT im VERY HAPPY with my 17ppm result from 28ppm!
A BIG thank you, to you Chris T for your idea, and many thanks to you, the Big Kahuna for your input also.
Cheers Mac.   
 

Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2019, 09:50:29 pm »
Nice one  :)

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2019, 05:27:15 pm »
Checked my TDS today and its jumped up to 21 already  :(

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2019, 09:54:30 pm »
Hello all,  for info feedback, its been about 4 weeks since the above cleaning of my 2yr old Axeon HF4 R.O membrane (12tds new). Although after cleaning, it did go down to 17tds, unfortunately it crept back up to near the original 28 tds that it was before the cleaning  process :( , this is just my experience,  but it maybe due my very high tds in @ 410ish? I do wonder, if the other guys that have done this, if their R.O's are still preforming a lower tds over time since their cleaning? even so it was still worth a try. Anyhow i took delivery of a new 40" R.O membrane today, a Hydranautics ESPA4-LD 4040 from Gaps Water £244 inc vat & del. June @ Gaps said most feedback on it, is saying they are getting a slightly better rejection rate than the HF4 Axeon membrane? so i thought id give it a go.
Cheers m

Ooooooog

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Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2019, 07:54:55 am »
It’s gotten more colder which would probably make a difference too.

mac74

  • Posts: 481
Re: 4040 RO Cleaning, is it worth it?
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2019, 11:06:57 am »
Fitted in the 40 " Hydranautics ESPA4-LD 4040 into my heated shed at the weekend, and so far very happy with the performance. It DOES reject better than the previous axeon unit  which was 12tds out when new.  Boosted to 80psi this new Hydranautics unit gives me 008 TDS out from about the same 410 tds in,  BUT at a slightly slower production rate than the axeon.