[P @ F]

Right as the heater is with the fabricators for the stainless version I now have a couple of things to iron out.
Answers  please chaps ...

1. What do you use hose wise at the point of entering the reel ?

2. Would you prefer the heater mounted as a tower or laying down , the sizes being 100x25x25 cm

Not long now !

[nathankaye]

Im taking it, that it would be fitted after the pump but before the reel?
If this is the case, laying down would suit my set up.
I use normal toughened garden hose from tank to pump and currently a car radiator hose from pump to reel.

[Smudger]

1/2 inch bore hose

Tower would be best but I'm adaptable 😁

Darran

[alank]

Tower would be best but could work with either. Will this have frost protect or be just used for on demand hot water?

[zesty]

Tower,

Use half inch hose I think, with the standard hoselock elbow, might be 3/4inch!

[P @ F]

No frost protection as yet , it does have a function that you can set to come on and off twice in a 24 hour period , or you can just let it run overnight on its lowest setting , would heat the van and warm the water that way !

[P @ F]

I am leaning towards a tower build for ease and 12 mm inlet and outlet , easier for anybody to adapt then .

[zesty]

Are you planning on manufacturing them on mass? Or giving the build instructions to those that want it?

[p1w1]

Think they should come in a pink cabinet

[P @ F]

Are you planning on manufacturing them on mass? Or giving the build instructions to those that want it?

Not sure how I am going to work it yet as the build cost has gone up a bit due to the cost of the stainless steel fabrication  , that is not cheap as I just found out !

Won’t be anything like £4.5 k though. 

[Shrek]

Tower please 

[Smudger]

somebody's going to be busy !!!

[P @ F]

Tower please 

Just made sure that they run correctly in the tower formation and I can assure you that they do !
Took a reading of 600*c plus from the bare exhaust so we should be able to heat some H2O with that !
With any luck this new design will be a winner , the fabricator is more excited than me about the whole idea , he did make me chuckle when we had our meeting on Tuesday 

[P @ F]

Oops I meant Monday 

[p1w1]

Tower please 

Just made sure that they run correctly in the tower formation and I can assure you that they do !
Took a reading of 600*c plus from the bare exhaust so we should be able to heat some H2O with that !
With any luck this new design will be a winner , the fabricator is more excited than me about the whole idea , he did make me chuckle when we had our meeting on Tuesday 

This time next year rodders 

[P @ F]

I’m not in it for the money tbh , it’s more a case of getting off the glass Monday to Friday  every week !

[Shrek]

Are these going to need to be professionally fitted ? Or just plug & play?
 Iv not got a clue when it comes to
A. Plumbing
B. Electrical

[P @ F]

Are these going to need to be professionally fitted ? Or just plug & play?
 Iv not got a clue when it comes to
A. Plumbing
B. Electrical

It will be  wire in red and black , connect water in and water out  , put a 35 mm hole in van floor  , secure tower frame and fit return to tank  , not really a lot to it !

[Shrek]

Sounds complicated 😢😆

[dazmond]

rich how do you get the heater to run on such low battery power?

diesel heaters need a good battery bank and charging facility normally so what have you done differently compared to the professionally fitted webasto heaters?

[P @ F]

rich how do you get the heater to run on such low battery power?

diesel heaters need a good battery bank and charging facility normally so what have you done differently compared to the professionally fitted webasto heaters?

Done nothing at all Daz , these things are great on power use , even at full power they only pull between 2 and 2.5 amps .
Yesterday with start up and shut down and a 5 hour run on full power I only used 12 amps

[nathankaye]

Looking forward to placing an order.  Immersions are good, but they require you to remember to turn on    ive forgotten to do this on a handful of times

[dazmond]

rich how do you get the heater to run on such low battery power?

diesel heaters need a good battery bank and charging facility normally so what have you done differently compared to the professionally fitted webasto heaters?

Done nothing at all Daz , these things are great on power use , even at full power they only pull between 2 and 2.5 amps .
Yesterday with start up and shut down and a 5 hour run on full power I only used 12 amps

so basically the chinese have managed to make a frugal diesel heater that runs on much less power than the power hungry webasto heaters?

[P @ F]

Clever ain’t they !

[dazmond]

Clever ain’t they !

yep.....they were using iron ore 5000 years before anyone else on the planet too.......

[Dry Clean]

Looking forward to placing an order.  Immersions are good, but they require you to remember to turn on    ive forgotten to do this on a handful of times

Nathan K with a diesel water heater, God help us.

[Smudger]

Daz - you may find that your "professional" Webasto draws more power because its a conversion from another use

I have a hot box that only draws a few amps just to fire up the boiler then runs without any more draw on the battery  I would suspect the heater P&F is the same - rather than an overpowered system.

Darran

[P @ F]

If you break the figures down my heater pulls 10 amps for 4 minutes to fire up , that equates to just over half an amp use .
Then when going it uses this per hour .......

100% power 2.5 amps
 80% power 1.7 amps
 60% power 1.3 amps

[Jonny 87]

All the best with this P@F.

It’s innovators like you that have moved window cleaning forward so much over the years.

Once your heater is tried and tested then I’d be more than happy to purchase one too.

A little side note, do you think this is something you should look at a patent for?

You can bet your money that other manufacturers out there will jump on this.

[P @ F]

Just done a few more tests and the lowest setting is 30%  , this uses 0.5 amps an hour !
You could leave that on overnight no trouble

40% is 0.75 amp
50% is 1 amp.

This use it obviously related to the fan speed for the combustion side

[P @ F]

Not sure about the patent as I have already put it in the public eye ?

However the model in the fabricators is a totally new design , maybe I will look into this eh !

[Jonny 87]

Not sure about the patent as I have already put it in the public eye ?

However the model in the fabricators is a totally new design , maybe I will look into this eh !

I definitely think that would be wise.

You know how cut throat businesses can be these days.

[Smudger]

public eye or not you can patent it, my understanding is this may be quite costly if done correctly

you could then let grippa etc.. sell them under license 

Darran

[zesty]

Are you planning on manufacturing them on mass? Or giving the build instructions to those that want it?

Not sure how I am going to work it yet as the build cost has gone up a bit due to the cost of the stainless steel fabrication  , that is not cheap as I just found out !

Won’t be anything like £4.5 k though. 

Hope it goes well mate!

You could be a very rich man in the near future.

I’d defo be interested in purchasing one.

[zesty]

How much diesel are you expecting it has Rich? For say 6 hours use a day?

[Shrek]

public eye or not you can patent it, my understanding is this may be quite costly if done correctly

you could then let grippa etc.. sell them under license 

Darran

Yeah then grippa and the likes will put the price sky high like the diesel heaters 

[P @ F]

I can only assume that the likes of  Grippa . PF and  Streamline  have not patented their products , they all make heaters using the same parts ?

[Shrek]

Not sure about the patent as I have already put it in the public eye ?

However the model in the fabricators is a totally new design , maybe I will look into this eh !

Get the patent or license or whatever you need and I don’t think you’ll be window cleaning anymore that’s for sure! Give out all your ideas and you’ll end like HMAN whinging for the next 10 years 😩

[p1w1]

public eye or not you can patent it, my understanding is this may be quite costly if done correctly

you could then let grippa etc.. sell them under license 

Darran

What do you think can actually be patented ? I can't see anything that could be really,  it's off the shelf parts put together like current suppliers. It's very clever what P&F has done that's for sure but nothing unique.

[P @ F]

That’s what I was thinking earlier , the heater is another persons brainchild , just hacked a bit , and the heat exchanger is nothing new !

The average cost of a patent is 4K plus you are not guaranteed it at the end , only 1 in 20 patents are awarded !

[P @ F]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

[Slacky]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

They will, there's plenty of peeps out there that dont use CIU.

[p1w1]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

I wouldn't think so, they only way they would do it is if they could get them made a lot cheaper then you. If your not going to put a big mark up on them then they will probably be a lot cheaper then what they would want to sell them for, I doubt they'd bother trying to compete on something they cant make good money on.
However it doesn't stop another person in their garage knocking them out for a few quid in their pocket.

For instance when i was looking at the current hot systems available (Webasto units) it actually wouldn't have been that much cheaper to buy the heater unit myself and all the bits and try and organise fitting myself then to just get the Grippa system installed as they will get them cheaper then i could, as they are probably buying dozens at a time direct from the manufacturer.

[nathankaye]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

I wouldn't think so, they only way they would do it is if they could get them made a lot cheaper then you. If your not going to put a big mark up on them then they will probably be a lot cheaper then what they would want to sell them for, I doubt they'd bother trying to compete on something they cant make good money on.
However it doesn't stop another person in their garage knocking them out for a few quid in their pocket.

Dont be fooled by such thinking.
Large companies can strike deals as they will buyb in bulk and hence reduce their costs.  They can subsidise the cost through the rest of the companies products n services and importantly they will probably mass produce n distribute through various networks and still make a good profit on them.

Dont take any chances and patent the whole thing.

[dazmond]

i think everyones jumping the gun a bit here........

theres no prove yet that this chinese heater will work reliably day in/day out.....time will tell......if its breaking down every few weeks or nearly setting on fire or needing constant tweaking then its not ready.....it needs a good year being used every day to get a better idea of reliability and safety....

[p1w1]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

I wouldn't think so, they only way they would do it is if they could get them made a lot cheaper then you. If your not going to put a big mark up on them then they will probably be a lot cheaper then what they would want to sell them for, I doubt they'd bother trying to compete on something they cant make good money on.
However it doesn't stop another person in their garage knocking them out for a few quid in their pocket.

Dont be fooled by such thinking.
Large companies can strike deals as they will buyb in bulk and hence reduce their costs.  They can subsidise the cost through the rest of the companies products n services and importantly they will probably mass produce n distribute through various networks and still make a good profit on them.

Dont take any chances and patent the whole thing.

Did you not see that bit in red..What can he patent on it then, What is unique about it?
Were talking about something that is not tried and tested, unsure if its even legal to sell commercially etc. I bet the Chinese heater itself is a copy of something already out there 
Like i said its brilliant & clever what P&F has done but probably far away  from some mass marketed diesel heater. If anyone is going to copy it, it will be the Chinese anyway 

[Plankton]

Has the supplier been asked if they can produce it?

[dazmond]

If I just flog them at a fair price with a bit for me on top the big boys won’t bother ripping it off surely !

I wouldn't think so, they only way they would do it is if they could get them made a lot cheaper then you. If your not going to put a big mark up on them then they will probably be a lot cheaper then what they would want to sell them for, I doubt they'd bother trying to compete on something they cant make good money on.
However it doesn't stop another person in their garage knocking them out for a few quid in their pocket.

For instance when i was looking at the current hot systems available (Webasto units) it actually wouldn't have been that much cheaper to buy the heater unit myself and all the bits and try and organise fitting myself then to just get the Grippa system installed as they will get them cheaper then i could, as they are probably buying dozens at a time direct from the manufacturer.

exactly.....some window cleaners think the likes of grippatank are ripping people off with these hot systems,their NOT!obviously their a business too and have to make a fairly good mark up for the hassle of buying and fitting them but its not as much as people think....

out of the £4.5k i paid for mine,£750 was VAT,so that takes it down to £3750 straight away,as well as the webasto heater unit i also got 2 105ah starter/leisure numax batteries,smart split charge relay,upright cabinet,liquid logic controller,frost stat and fitting.......

[P @ F]

i think everyones jumping the gun a bit here........

theres no prove yet that this chinese heater will work reliably day in/day out.....time will tell......if its breaking down every few weeks or nearly setting on fire or needing constant tweaking then its not ready.....it needs a good year being used every day to get a better idea of reliability and safety....

Come January Daz mine will have been used for a year day in day out , all I have replaced is a glow plug which I wrecked whilst messing with settings , max power should be 5Hz , I ramped it up to 8 Hz to see what would happen , I soon found out 

[robbo333]

I don't much about this but:

I used to work in marketing and advertising, so we would get a new product to try and market and sell, (it may be still in the design stage or under manufacture) and we would have to sign a 'confidentiality agreement', quite simply we couldn't divulge any information about it.
So the first thing I would say is: anyone working on this project (and I mean anyone) should sign a confidentiality agreement. I've always been happy to sign one and (money is money).

If you are going to patent the product then something needs to be unique about it and i'm guessing it's expensive and time consuming to do. Personally if I spent the time patenting the product, then why bother having the hassle and expense of manufacturing it. I would sell the patent under licence, let everyone else have the hassle of producing it and cream a percentage off the top.

If you don't want to patent it, then another company will simply purchase one (change it a bit) which means 'paint it orange' offer the full backup and service of a quality company and sell it 'as their own'.

Also I am guessing that it will need to be CE approved. Good luck with that one!

But the most important question is: do you do next day delivery?

I quite fancy one.

[P @ F]

All I am trying to do is give people the chance to go hot without the big price tag.
I could have been punting these out since February with my original design , but it wasn’t ready with regard to a tiny amount of fume escape and inferior quality metals , that being a mild steel exhaust chamber.
None of that will be an issue now though as my fabricator is a custom build stainless exhaust company .

The owner used to be head engineer for one of the teams that race them wicked powerboats that come to Plymouth, so I like to think that he knows his arse from his elbow!

[P @ F]

I don't much about this but:

I used to work in marketing and advertising, so we would get a new product to try and market and sell, (it may be still in the design stage or under manufacture) and we would have to sign a 'confidentiality agreement', quite simply we couldn't divulge any information about it.
So the first thing I would say is: anyone working on this project (and I mean anyone) should sign a confidentiality agreement. I've always been happy to sign one and (money is money).

If you are going to patent the product then something needs to be unique about it and i'm guessing it's expensive and time consuming to do. Personally if I spent the time patenting the product, then why bother having the hassle and expense of manufacturing it. I would sell the patent under licence, let everyone else have the hassle of producing it and cream a percentage off the top.

If you don't want to patent it, then another company will simply purchase one (change it a bit) which means 'paint it orange' offer the full backup and service of a quality company and sell it 'as their own'.

Also I am guessing that it will need to be CE approved. Good luck with that one!

But the most important question is: do you do next day delivery?

I quite fancy one.

I have considered all that you just said myself , and the CE mark is the grey area , don’t actually know if the heater in it’s original state is !
I can easily find out from the UK distributer that I will be using .

[P @ F]

If you guys want top pay through the nose quality then I can do exactly the same with an Eberspacher D2 heater I reckon , but the warranty will be void the moment we cut the heat exchanger off 

[P @ F]

And you will be paying £75 for a glow plug instead of £10.99. 

[P @ F]

How much diesel are you expecting it has Rich? For say 6 hours use a day?

Don’t have the formula close to hand , the specs say 400ml per hour on full chat , so 6 hours will set you back 2.4L for the day .
I often find myself turning it down as the day goes on due to the remaining tank water getting hotter with the recirculating going on , I would guess for my 5 hour days I’m looking at £2/£2.50

[p1w1]

All I am trying to do is give people the chance to go hot without the big price tag.
I could have been punting these out since February with my original design , but it wasn’t ready with regard to a tiny amount of fume escape and inferior quality metals , that being a mild steel exhaust chamber.
None of that will be an issue now though as my fabricator is a custom build stainless exhaust company .

The owner used to be head engineer for one of the teams that race them wicked powerboats that come to Plymouth, so I like to think that he knows his arse from his elbow!

All you can do is try and see how it goes..

[robbo333]

Rich

I wish you the best of luck, I really do, (and stick me down for one) but what I don't want to happen is:
You find a way of selling them and in 3 month's time, one of them goes 'BANG'. Maybe a van gets damaged or someone gets hurt!
It will come back on you (in a big way), you need to consider this.  You're doing a good deed, but you need to cover your arse if something goes wrong!

[Splash & dash]

i think everyones jumping the gun a bit here........

theres no prove yet that this chinese heater will work reliably day in/day out.....time will tell......if its breaking down every few weeks or nearly setting on fire or needing constant tweaking then its not ready.....it needs a good year being used every day to get a better idea of reliability and safety....

My Grippatank 9kw is now 5 years old and run for over 10,000 hours and never been serviced or missed a beat , I think that’s very good reliability.

[Splash & dash]

How much diesel are you expecting it has Rich? For say 6 hours use a day?

Don’t have the formula close to hand , the specs say 400ml per hour on full chat , so 6 hours will set you back 2.4L for the day .
I often find myself turning it down as the day goes on due to the remaining tank water getting hotter with the recirculating going on , I would guess for my 5 hour days I’m looking at £2/£2.50

If those figures are accurate that’s very good probably the cheapest option available for hot water well done with all your hard work 

[zesty]

On reliability of Chinese engines etc.

I don’t think there’s is any good reason to worry, the Chinese have been making knock off Honda engines and the like for years and years with very good reliability results.

Take the Loncin engines, I’ve had two pressure washers, both Loncin, and currently own one with a  Loncin engine. All of them have been flawless with long hard use. The Loncin has never missed a beat. And I’ve never serviced any of them.

Sounds like it could all be a winner Rich!

I’m here if you need a tester 👍🏼 I’ll pay for the privilege.

[P @ F]

Out with the old and in with the new , going to look more off the shelf than out the shed.
15 times more expensive but no leaks of nasties !

[P @ F]

Every time I come home there’s stainless steel bits in my letterbox !

[P @ F]

I have also looked into having the frame done in aluminium to save weight , and as the unit is retro fit it would make more sense as stainless is a pig to drill compared to aluminium, it would also keep the cost down more , this is what it’s all about  , being affordable is priority !

Having said that it is surprising how the costs jump when you sit back and look

[zesty]

Aluminium sounds like a good shout Rich.

Weight is important with van payloads etc!

Did you get my text mate?

[P @ F]

Yes I did , I forgot  to reply as usual !
The first one should be done and fitted in my van by the end of the month , I will run it for a month and if it’s all good then production could start in November

[zesty]

Sounds good! Winters coming!