[Mike Halliday]

Had quite a few call over the last weeks for just single bedrooms, I hate setting up all my gear for a single bedroom 

‘Luckily’ my £80 minimum charge tends to put them off,

***** just seen the time,  will finish this post and get to my point later******

[john martin]

could it be your setup is awkward  ...       
how about getting a small portable and tm3 or 13" rotary of the one room jobs  .
I say some this time of year would gladly tke the 80min .

[Mike Halliday]

John it not just the set up time its also the drive time,

it takes longer to clean a bedroom than it does to clean a through lounge so it should really cost more,  but customer won’t pay the price.

I didn’t realise the time this morning as I started the post that’s why I cut it short I really wanted to talk about the comparison between doing a bedroom and other rooms,  ( especially when they are attic rooms up 2 flights of stairs)

[Elfyn]

I've always taken the view that small jobs can lead to bigger things and recomendations.
Having said that I will adjust what I charge to take into account travel time, poor access etc.

[neil 47]

I hate all single jobs , but take the view it another person that now trusts you .

If you run a good reminder service email / text you should get a good return if followed up

[Doctor Carpet (Ret'd)]

All comments posted have some truth so all I’ll add is that you also have to consider the opportunity cost.

If you’re doing a one bed job you might lose out on booking ina more lucrative job because you’re busy doing these small one room jobs.

Hence the minimum charge.

Basically, I think it’s a case of adjusting your minimum charge to balance the amount of work coming in to the time you have available in your diary.

[Cleanevangelist]

Mike

Back end marketing is worth more than the first sale. plus you can get reviews that are ever green and worth real money as google local default listing is by reviews. plus up selling Stain protection, recommendation,

They call it life time value of a customer

Respects

Ian Harper

[Mike Halliday]

The way I see it is their is a minimum time involved in cleaning even the smallest carpet  so we need to set our price based on that time not how big the carpet is or the customers perceived idea that a bedroom should cost less than a livingRoom.

Also it’s a big risk to use your prices to build a list, or create a customer base or hope for a google reviews because you end up with a collection of customers who paid a low price who in the future will want the same low prices and the People they recommend will be low payers.

Look at  the Groupon model,  people cleaned rooms for £10 hoping they could build a customer base but all they had was a disloyal base of customer who would never pay full price.

[Peter Hobbs]

I totally agree with you Mike. We have a minimum service of £40 which in my opinion is far too low anyway, but we have many competitors in our area charging half that so we have to stay close to competitive! Which is beyond ridiculous... Plus we travel all over Kent, it can easily take 2 hours from one side to another on a bad day so its highly important that when we're booking jobs we try to group them all in the same or similar area.

That being said, would 6 small jobs all in the same area be an issue? I guess I'd take it...

[Mr Dvae]

Mike's been around this business many many years. Whatever you think of next he's already done it.
Mike is spot on here.
Many carpet cleaners in the states won't even entertain jobs of less than 3 rooms .

[Elfyn]

This has very little to do with how long you've been in the business and more to do with the type of customer, area you work in and your own business model.
If I had a set minimum charge or a minimum number of rooms I would have gone out of business many years ago. My area tends to have very cautious, but very loyal people - some of my customers go back over 20 years.
Each to his own and whatever works for them.

[Robin Ray]

What is the purpose of a minimum charge?

For me a minimum charge is the minimum i am willing to earn doing a job. As even the smallest job will take a certain amount of time, taking in to consideration driving to the job, looking at the area, talking to the customer about what they require, offloading equipment, setting it up, doing the job, collecting payment, loading equipment back in to the van, collecting payment, processing payment, driving to the next job. Not to mention, owing the van, equipment, chemicals, obtaining the knowledge to be able to do the job, advertising, insurances and the umpteen other things i cant think of at the moment.

What should that minimum be set at?

That means knowing how much it really costs to run your business and turn a profit. Unfortunately many people don't know the answer to that question. This isnt always the case, but i think many under value themselves and as a result go out of business prematurely.

[Mike Halliday]

Knowing your numbers is really important, but you need to separate what are fixed cost and what are cost of doing the job.

Business insurances,  cost of  equipment,  training, advertising  are fixed, they cost the same whether you spend the day sat in front of the TV watching Jeremy Kyle or are out cleaning carpets.  Chemical costs, diesel & machine depreciation are the cost of cleaning the carpet.

So if you have no work on Monday you will pay (eg ) £15 in business cost even though you have not left the house,  if you go out and clean a couple of carpet it might be an extra £10 so if you make  £50 you are in profit  and have £25 more in your pocket than you did at 8am ( which might pay for the kids cinema tickets at the weekend)

we all live at different levels,  to a new starter (who is struggling to find work)  knowing when he picks his kids up from his x wife at the weekend he can treat them to go see the  latest cinema release  it’s worth going out and earning £25.

I’m lucky I have work constantly coming in, if I looses a single  Room Job, I know I will later in the day or week pick up a bigger job to fill in that space so I don’t worry, I actually look forward to not getting calls and being slow for a time as it lets me do other stuff I have to do

[Jonathan Evans]

Hi Elfyn that's really interesting and something I have often thought about trying although never been brave enough. I guess if I did that I would still have a min charge which would be £50.
In reality what does that equate to for you. If you don't mind me asking. If you do sorry just ignore me.....Most do lll

[Elfyn]

I'm not sure I know what you wish to know, Jonathan. 

[Jonathan Evans]

I just wondered if by not having a minimum charge people actually book more to be done.
Do people just ask for 1 chair or 1 room at say £50 a seat or £5 a sq my for 8 sq Mrs.
I haven't been doing it as long as you just thought it was an interesting idea for marketing.
Thanks anyway.

[Mike Halliday]

I just wondered if by not having a minimum charge people actually book more to be done.
Do people just ask for 1 chair or 1 room at say £50 a seat or £5 a sq my for 8 sq Mrs.
I haven't been doing it as long as you just thought it was an interesting idea for marketing.
Thanks anyway.

Do mean when people call and ask for one room you tell them that a livingRoom is £55 but you have Minimum  charge of £70 , if they had another room cleaned they would get better value for money......so they spend £90 having the hallway cleaned as well as it’s only another  £20

[Robin Ray]

This is really not that complicated,

The costs of running a business whether they be running costs, fixed costs or living costs influence what you need to charge to make a profit. That really is it.

[Jonathan Evans]

Yes I think J have over complicated it. Thanks Mike.

[maxcampbell]

You must have a minimum charge - the big costs are all per day, or per month - so every job must make a contribution per hour.

Our minimum is £130, inc VAT, unless it's a spot/stain, which we do for £88 inc - 2 different area stains = £130. It puts very very few off, most people find something else - stairs, or a chair - to take it over the minimum. £130 gets you a room about 5m x 3.5m.

[RPCCS]

I just wondered if by not having a minimum charge people actually book more to be done.
Do people just ask for 1 chair or 1 room at say £50 a seat or £5 a sq my for 8 sq Mrs.
I haven't been doing it as long as you just thought it was an interesting idea for marketing.
Thanks anyway.

Do mean when people call and ask for one room you tell them that a livingRoom is £55 but you have Minimum  charge of £70 , if they had another room cleaned they would get better value for money......so they spend £90 having the hallway cleaned as well as it’s only another  £20

That's how I was trained, set a minimum charge , which I include up to 20 sq m . Then £x for every sq m above that.  If more than 1 room, discount the 2nd and 3rd rooms. Ie no min charge, just per sq m

[DB]

Along standing friend of mine calculated that the minimum cost for him to go out on a job was £127. 83p... that was several years ago. My minimum charge when I 'technically' retired was £85. 00....

Like Mike I always quoted my minimum charge then advised the customer what the 'actual' price would be calculated per square metre....I then said that the balance could be put towards another item that required cleaning.
It worked for me for many years....most people understood the logic but you would always get the odd ones who say its far too high....that was fine I could do without their business
If you take the time to calculate what some people charge (in many professions not just ours)  you will find that they are working for less than the minimum wage.

[Stoots]

This is why i dabbled in carpet cleaning for a couple of years then went back to window cleaning...

Having regular reliable work everyday without worrying where the next call is coming from...

plus all the faff of driving and setup and pack away all for a £40 single room....even if i could have got £80 a room (whos going to pay that round here btw you can get a new carpet fitted for less) its still going to be an hour and a half job by the toime youve got there, setup, moved stuff, agitated, extracted, maybe stain removal, put it all away...and be knackered sweating like a pig in the process... plus youve got to get to the next...thats if there is a next

sod that, glad im a window cleaner now

[Robin Ray]

This is why i dabbled in carpet cleaning for a couple of years then went back to window cleaning...

Having regular reliable work everyday without worrying where the next call is coming from...

plus all the faff of driving and setup and pack away all for a £40 single room....even if i could have got £80 a room (whos going to pay that round here btw you can get a new carpet fitted for less) its still going to be an hour and a half job by the toime youve got there, setup, moved stuff, agitated, extracted, maybe stain removal, put it all away...and be knackered sweating like a pig in the process... plus youve got to get to the next...thats if there is a next

sod that, glad im a window cleaner now

The person who will pay £80 + is the sort of person who is not interested in whether its £40, £80 or £100 they are interested in if its going to be done right, to their standard and by someone they trust.  That sort or person is everywhere they are at all levels of society and in every neighbourhood.  Many people don't get to work for them because they give them the wrong messages in their marketing.

[Mike Halliday]

This is why i dabbled in carpet cleaning for a couple of years then went back to window cleaning...

Having regular reliable work everyday without worrying where the next call is coming from...

plus all the faff of driving and setup and pack away all for a £40 single room....even if i could have got £80 a room (whos going to pay that round here btw you can get a new carpet fitted for less) its still going to be an hour and a half job by the toime youve got there, setup, moved stuff, agitated, extracted, maybe stain removal, put it all away...and be knackered sweating like a pig in the process... plus youve got to get to the next...thats if there is a next

sod that, glad im a window cleaner now

You made the sensible choice Gomo carpet cleaning was not the business for you.

[Mr Dvae]

I think we need to be careful here.  If a customer wants their bedroom carpet cleaned and we're cheaper than hiring a machine and doing it themselves,  our service is in question.  We are supposed to be a professional service with quality equipment and a high level of professional skills.  If we're not worth any more than a hire machine in the hands of a novice then why are we in business?

[John Kelly]

There is a market for every price regardless of where you live. Seen a good analogy on Facebook this morning. Go in a supermarket and look at the bread section. Dozens of options and dozens of prices. Why doesn't everyone buy the cheapest? because people don't. It's exactly the same with services.
I hear all the time, people round here won't pay that. Maybe a lot won't but a lot will. We have customers around here charging £10 a carpet, we have others who's minimum charge is £120. Guess who has a new van and truckmount.

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Usually it’s a poorly explained costing that puts customers off booking, ‘how much fora carpet to be cleaned?’ Says enquiry, ‘we have a minimum charge of £80’ say cc so the customer thinks it’s £80 per carpet these figures can be changed so if it were £10 then the customer is going to lump big carpets with small ones think it’s all the same.

I’d love to be privy to a cleaners private message conversation with a customer it would be a real education in a positive way.

[Simon Gerrard]

The trick is to market your services in such a way that when people call you they expect to hear the price you state.
 That pretty much covers it, no matter where you are in the market. This is a very simple truth about marketing, that you get the kind of customers your marketing appeals to.

Simon

[John Kelly]

Shaun, I hear them all the time. I am still shocked at how many still just reply with the price without even asking where they are, why they want items cleaned etc etc.

[DB]

Many of the people I come into contact  with these days  can't or don't want to understand that they are not going to be just working for a living but running a business.

[Glynn]

Many of the people I come into contact  with these days  can't or don't want to understand that they are not going to be just working for a living but running a business.

And very few derek actually run as a "business" let alone even understand what a business is.

[Mr Dvae]

Glynn
I like your logo.  And I think you're spot on with the last comment..

[Ned Kelly]

I've been in business just under a year now and have tried different things in regards to pricing (including three rooms for £55!!... a busy fool!! lol). But by far the best thing I've done is set a minimum price of £80 ( going up to £90 in the New year) for the first area to be cleaned.  How can i justify this price?  I have invested heavily on training which included the Cleansmart course with Derek Bolton, the Restormate training with John Kelly and the NCCA course with Paul Pearce. These are all legends within the cleaning industry and the knowledge they have given me on carpet cleaning and how to succeed I believe sets me apart from 90% of the cleaners in my area. I have also invested heavily on equipment like the Airflex pro, vac booster pod, Magma heaters, air movers, wand glides, Floormacs, two inch vac hoses, professional website, marketing etc. I also visit customers homes prior to cleaning, performing burn tests, ph tests (if it has been cleaned before) and then explain to the customer my ten step process in carpet cleaning. I am always immaculately dressed on the first visit with clothing which bears my company logo on one side and the NCCA logo on the other plus a shirt and tie. I always leave my quotation form in a glossy folder with my logo and contact info on it ( tip from John Kelly). In the folder is info on how I'll clean your carpets and upholstery plus tips on stain removal and also a sheet on why you should choose a NCCA member. I also leave a free spotter bottle with my logo and contact info on it. This is given to the customer regardless if I get the job or not. I am polite and respectful and often  engage the customers in other topics apart from carpet cleaning which helps gain their trust and 90% of the time I walk out from the customers home with at least £100 worth of work ( lounge and a hall).  I ooze professionalism lol. I have just finished my first Christmas period and made more money in a week than my last job paid in a month. I think it was John Kelly who said to me ( I may be wrong) "it's up to you which car you want to drive a Ford or a Mercedes". 
Sorry about the long ( first) post but what I'm trying to say is I provide a top professional service and my prices must reflect this or I'm selling myself and my family short.

ps my next door neighbour is a dog trainer who has a minimum charge of £80 for one hours training

[Robin Ray]

I've been in business just under a year now and have tried different things in regards to pricing (including three rooms for £55!!... a busy fool!! lol). But by far the best thing I've done is set a minimum price of £80 ( going up to £90 in the New year) for the first area to be cleaned.  How can i justify this price?  I have invested heavily on training which included the Cleansmart course with Derek Bolton, the Restormate training with John Kelly and the NCCA course with Paul Pearce. These are all legends within the cleaning industry and the knowledge they have given me on carpet cleaning and how to succeed I believe sets me apart from 90% of the cleaners in my area. I have also invested heavily on equipment like the Airflex pro, vac booster pod, Magma heaters, air movers, wand glides, Floormacs, two inch vac hoses, professional website, marketing etc. I also visit customers homes prior to cleaning, performing burn tests, ph tests (if it has been cleaned before) and then explain to the customer my ten step process in carpet cleaning. I am always immaculately dressed on the first visit with clothing which bears my company logo on one side and the NCCA logo on the other plus a shirt and tie. I always leave my quotation form in a glossy folder with my logo and contact info on it ( tip from John Kelly). In the folder is info on how I'll clean your carpets and upholstery plus tips on stain removal and also a sheet on why you should choose a NCCA member. I also leave a free spotter bottle with my logo and contact info on it. This is given to the customer regardless if I get the job or not. I am polite and respectful and often  engage the customers in other topics apart from carpet cleaning which helps gain their trust and 90% of the time I walk out from the customers home with at least £100 worth of work ( lounge and a hall).  I ooze professionalism lol. I have just finished my first Christmas period and made more money in a week than my last job paid in a month. I think it was John Kelly who said to me ( I may be wrong) "it's up to you which car you want to drive a Ford or a Mercedes". 
Sorry about the long ( first) post but what I'm trying to say is I provide a top professional service and my prices must reflect this or I'm selling myself and my family short.

ps my next door neighbour is a dog trainer who has a minimum charge of £80 for one hours training

Well said, Ned.

[neil 47]

I tend to just get someone else to price , turn up and do the job and take the money and go home .

I’ve done it the way Ned does it and found I got fed up of going to the same property twice .

When I figured it out I was better off for my temperament to go just once as I then had more time to do Nothing.

If Money was my main aim I would do things very differently .

Which would have to include a scalable bussiness model .

I do however have a min price which is £50 should be £60 really as 90% of my work is within 5 miles distance traveled is by far the best saving as a tank of fuel lasts me a month .

[Ned Kelly]

Doing it the way I do it takes time and sacrifice Neil and is not easy. I sacrifice three nights of my week visiting customers homes to engage and provide quotations. I am by no means an expert on carpet cleaning but believe until you get "eyes on" there is no way you can quote a job properly. I tried the easy option and quoted over the phone or by Facebook or email but a conversation over the phone or by social media is completely different from meeting a customer face to face and inspecting their carpets/upholstery and my success rate was only 50-50 .  Also,a lot of of the time over the phone the customer would tell you a load of porkies and I lost count how many times I was told there are no spots and stains or the landing is small only to be confronted by a kids slime mess or six square meters of landing. Now, if a customer calls and insists on a quote their and then instead of a home visit, then I politely refuse their request and wish them good luck.
When your self employed and running your own business you take on much more responsibility than a 9-5 job and you MUST be fully prepared for this and expect long hours and loads of stress and anxiety but the rewards MUST reflect these sacrifices or what's the point? I see myself now as a business man, salesman and then a professional carpet cleaner with the carpet cleaning being the easier part.

[neil 47]

I know , it takes time ,sacrifice and responsibility that’s why I don’t do it 😂

[RPCCS]

Ned, I too was trained by John and Derek, have been trading 4 months, but have only had a handful of jobs. Advertised in local church and community magazines, and a local paper, as well as dropping flyers, but still slow on the uptake.
Im lucky that I still have my window cleaning business for income. Like you I don't quote on the phone,  go and survey first and do the burn test.

[Ned Kelly]

Rome wasn't built in a day Rich!! Like you I panicked the first few months after I started with the lack of sales.It takes time pal and my development as a small business has come in fits's and start's. The one thing I would do if I was you was to approach your local government endorsed small business enterprise group as soon as possible. They will give you fantastic advice and offer free courses on how to develop a small business and in the best marketing ideas and also give you grants to bring your website up to scratch. The WORST thing I done was offer the first room cleaned for £30 or three rooms for £55 or three rooms plus stairs,hall and landing for £65 as a Super Summer Saver and I'm actually embarrassed I did this after all the great advice I had. A busy feckin fool!!!! I once did three lounges in one day and got paid £90. How can you run a business on £90 a day when you have to pay for insurance,equipment repairs,van MOT,service,insurance,chemicals etc.? Impossible!!  I was providing a first-class service but was charging LESS than the "bait and switch" companies or the guys with the Rug Doctors lol. Most customers don't know the difference between the true professionals and the charlatans and I use the first inspection to educate the customer on this and by the time I'm finished the customer most of the time will be prepared to pay more for the job getting done properly. 
ps one of the best things I did with regards to marketing was to get my family car ( a white Kia Sportage) adorned with my company logo and contact details along with NCCA/TACCA stickers. This cost me £130 from Signs Express and has got me at least £1500 of sales in the last three months from customers from the church I attend,sons football and daughters gymnastics classes. Great piece of business.

[Robin Ray]

Ned, I too was trained by John and Derek, have been trading 4 months, but have only had a handful of jobs. Advertised in local church and community magazines, and a local paper, as well as dropping flyers, but still slow on the uptake.
Im lucky that I still have my window cleaning business for income. Like you I don't quote on the phone,  go and survey first and do the burn test.

I started just like you as a window cleaner, its a really good way of transitioning over as there is always something to fall back on. If you keep things consistent and do a good job you will find you will have enough and you will eventually have to go entirely over to carpets.

[RPCCS]

Ned, I too was trained by John and Derek, have been trading 4 months, but have only had a handful of jobs. Advertised in local church and community magazines, and a local paper, as well as dropping flyers, but still slow on the uptake.
Im lucky that I still have my window cleaning business for income. Like you I don't quote on the phone,  go and survey first and do the burn test.

I started just like you as a window cleaner, its a really good way of transitioning over as there is always something to fall back on. If you keep things consistent and do a good job you will find you will have enough and you will eventually have to go entirely over to carpets.

Thats the overall plan, being wrong side of 50; I am finding the windows hard going now, after almost 30 years, problems with most of my joints now.

[RPCCS]

Rome wasn't built in a day Rich!! Like you I panicked the first few months after I started with the lack of sales.It takes time pal and my development as a small business has come in fits's and start's. The one thing I would do if I was you was to approach your local government endorsed small business enterprise group as soon as possible. They will give you fantastic advice and offer free courses on how to develop a small business and in the best marketing ideas and also give you grants to bring your website up to scratch. The WORST thing I done was offer the first room cleaned for £30 or three rooms for £55 or three rooms plus stairs,hall and landing for £65 as a Super Summer Saver and I'm actually embarrassed I did this after all the great advice I had. A busy feckin fool!!!! I once did three lounges in one day and got paid £90. How can you run a business on £90 a day when you have to pay for insurance,equipment repairs,van MOT,service,insurance,chemicals etc.? Impossible!!  I was providing a first-class service but was charging LESS than the "bait and switch" companies or the guys with the Rug Doctors lol. Most customers don't know the difference between the true professionals and the charlatans and I use the first inspection to educate the customer on this and by the time I'm finished the customer most of the time will be prepared to pay more for the job getting done properly. 
ps one of the best things I did with regards to marketing was to get my family car ( a white Kia Sportage) adorned with my company logo and contact details along with NCCA/TACCA stickers. This cost me £130 from Signs Express and has got me at least £1500 of sales in the last three months from customers from the church I attend,sons football and daughters gymnastics classes. Great piece of business.

Thanks for the advice Ned, having run the window cleaning business for almost 30 years, I think I’m  reasonably clued up , marketing wise. If not then I’m doing something wrong.😀.Always good to hear from others though, sharing ideas is  always good for business.

[Ned Kelly]

No bother Rich. As a newbie to business I'm like a sponge just now looking for advice from guys like yourself regarding marketing and what works and what I'm wasting my time on. As a guy who has had a successful window cleaning business for 30 years I was just wondering what type of marketing you use just now to attract new customers to this? Other than customer referrals do you use Google Adwords or Facebook (do you post regular or boost posts or videos of you window cleaning)or Snapchat for business or any other form of social media? Do you use flyers (how many do you put out per week?).Do you do "five a round" a new customers home once you have cleaned the windows or leave flyers at local dentists,doctors newsagents or any other local business. If you do use any of these methods,roughly, what is the most successful and what is the least successful. Also,if any of these marketing tools are successful for your window cleaning business is there a reason why these methods are not successful for carpet cleaning? Thank's in advance for any advice given.
Ned

[RPCCS]

Are you looking for advice re windows or carpets Ned?
If carpets ,I got a load of flyers done for nowt, as my neighbour works for a printing company.  I gave one to all my window cleaning customers, placed ad in local church and community magazines, had an ad in local weekly paper for a month, and went dropping through doors in estates at next village. The church mag generated 1 job, as did the paper,and the leaflet drop got me 2.
I have had about 2 jobs from friends, about 3 from window customers, and about 3 from one of my commercial jobs.
Next step is to drop flyers on a few more estates, and another shot in the paper. I am also considering setting up a fb business page. Loads of folk I know who are self employed, say they have had lots of work from using that method..If you're asking about windows, I don't advertise, I have more than enough work to keep me on my toes. I pick and choose the jobs I want nowadays.When I started I had catds printed and went door knocking and dropping cards

[Jonathan Evans]

The best return I get is from my database. I mail them twice a year and send reminders.
Flyers do work but you need a really compelling offer and it tends to be a numbers game.
I think it depends on your pricing regarding Facebook and other social media.
Some people swear by it, I tend to swear at it.
AdWords works but nowadays it is very expensive and if you don't know what you're doing can be a nightmare.

Local mags are still very cost effective.
Hope this helps

[JandS]

I did the opposite and took on window cleaning as an extra and now probably do more w/c than c/c.....I find w/c easier than c/c but I do it WFP and actually enjoy being outside  for a change.
Think there is more stress in c/c....with the w/c you can more or less start and finish when you want and no set amount of work needs to be done...my minimum charge varies dependant on travel times but £45 up to 2.5 miles, that would cover a single average lounge.

[Robin Ray]

Window cleaning is the ultimate stress free job. It can earn excellent money too. I did it for many years before carpets and for some time along with carpets. The only thing I struggled with was boredom. After the first few thousand windows it got a bit tedious.

[edward coller]

Nice Max thats around £7.42 per sq Metre, love the cut of your jib! I always want to put my prices up and yet so often dont, particularly when its a slower time for me, i GUESS  i need to get mote bottle! and probably sell my biz more. Generally I charge £65. for single stain removal and £ 85 for room up to 20sqm, so most spotters turn into a room!

[RPCCS]

Window cleaning earns good money if you get the right work. I started too cheap and paid the price. Even now I still think I am too cheap , I am 90% wfp and anout 10% trad. I generally start about 9/9.30 and finish at 4., have a coffee about 10/ 10.3p for 15 mins, then 40 mins at lunchtime, but dont stop in the afternoon.  Another cleaner I know has done almost 40 years in the job. He is all trad and his work is bigger properties, generally starting at £20 and going up to 80/90 . Like me he's getting sick of it now and does bit of painting to diversify a bit.