[Timmy Boy]

Hi all

I know its not a large area but going to be cleaning the brickwork above the signage and was initially thinking of brick acid, brush and rinse but I am concerned about the powder coated sign below. As long as I rinse well, am I opening up a can of worms or does anyone have any suggestions on an alternative product / method.

Many thanks

Tim

[Smudger]

possibly  really depends on how careful you are but you dont need brick acid for that  steam cleaning will do it 100% enviromentally safe - i'd worry more about passers by if using acid


this was done using steam...

[chris scott]

Pressure wash it...no need for steam or Acid.

[Kev Martin]

What’s wrong with you all just use Spray and Walk Away

[Smudger]

whats right with it 

seriously that would be better than just pressure washing it with cold as you will at least kill the algae spores

Darran

[Splash & dash]

Doff will kill all the spores and won’t damage the surface pressure washer if not careful will damage the surface of brick and won’t kill off the lichen and mould spores

[Smudger]

But Chris knows best 👍

[Timmy Boy]

Many thanks for the responses. Normally cleanitup sends me notifications when someone has replied but didn’t on this occasion so apologies. I don’t have a bowser and didn’t have access to water as it was done at 06:00 in the morning. My van is in Cornwall being refitted out so will have my tank back soon. Really want to look into softwashing - can anyone recommend a good supplier /training course?

[Splash & dash]

Many thanks for the responses. Normally cleanitup sends me notifications when someone has replied but didn’t on this occasion so apologies. I don’t have a bowser and didn’t have access to water as it was done at 06:00 in the morning. My van is in Cornwall being refitted out so will have my tank back soon. Really want to look into softwashing - can anyone recommend a good supplier /training course?

Darran smith at purple rhino is your man very good course and helpful without a hard sell

[Timmy Boy]

many thanks

[chris scott]

Look its bad architecture that is causing the problem....bleaching or Doffing it will not "solve" the problem. The front of the building needs ripping out and rebuilding. It's not rocket science.

[Splash & dash]

Look its bad architecture that is causing the problem....bleaching or Doffing it will not "solve" the problem. The front of the building needs ripping out and rebuilding. It's not rocket science.

I wouldn’t say it’s bad architecture but very poor building looking at that brick work I think I could do better , but the op is asking about cleaning it doff will clean it up well as will softwashing ,pressurewashing will likely damage the face of the brick or worse still remove the very poor pointing , personally think it’s a hideous looking building but if they want it cleaning Ime sure we would all be intrested in doing that if the price is right

[Timmy Boy]

if I went round telling my construction customers that I can’t clean it because they have done a bad job, I wouldn’t be in business very long  .

[chris scott]

I did not say it was badly built ...I said it was bad architecture, there is a difference.  There is absolutely no need to steam that building....a pressure washer will work fine. The Doff is overrated and often sold to those that know no different. 

[Splash & dash]

I did not say it was badly built ...I said it was bad architecture, there is a difference.  There is absolutely no need to steam that building....a pressure washer will work fine. The Doff is overrated and often sold to those that know no different.

If that’s so why do English heritage , and the national trust say that that it’s the only acceptable way to clean older buildings ? It’s there policy that a doff is used and they name it as doff ,cleaning is the only acceptable way to clean there buildings The reason is that the doff will kill bacteria ,algy,lichen  etc without damaging the substrate, a preasure washer cannot do that and will cause damage . Different jobs require different equipment to clean the surface pressurewashing has its place but it’s not suitable for everything

[chris scott]

That's a complete misconception. Brian Crowe in the late 80's did a very good job of "educating " conservation groups on this new superheated way of cleaning things. It is still specified today...he did a good job. He also created himself a very niche market. Today it the "doff" is bought by the uneducated to clean drives, walls etc. It's most prevalent recent use is the cleaning of render....although K rend state a maximum of 60 centigrade only. Again sales are based on a niche market.

Saying the Doff sterilises the surface is true... albeit shortlived. These microorganisms are air bourne and will grow and multiply given the right conditions. The doff does nothing to address the environment in which they grow, so they will come back.

"Adjust" the environment and the use of a biodegradable biocide will give better long-term results. Whilst not biodegradable bleach would work ,but the mechanism by which it works is not ideal when metal window frames and the likes are present.
The Yanks like to shout about it's use but a) it aint biodegradable and b) it; highly corrosive
I have two DOFF machines and I was "trained " at Stonehealth  15 years ago

[Splash & dash]

That's a complete misconception. Brian Crowe in the late 80's did a very good job of "educating " conservation groups on this new superheated way of cleaning things. It is still specified today...he did a good job. He also created himself a very niche market. Today it the "doff" is bought by the uneducated to clean drives, walls etc. It's most prevalent recent use is the cleaning of render....although K rend state a maximum of 60 centigrade only. Again sales are based on a niche market.

Saying the Doff sterilises the surface is true... albeit shortlived. These microorganisms are air bourne and will grow and multiply given the right conditions. The doff does nothing to address the environment in which they grow, so they will come back.

"Adjust" the environment and the use of a biodegradable biocide will give better long-term results. Whilst not biodegradable bleach would work ,but the mechanism by which it works is not ideal when metal window frames and the likes are present.
The Yanks like to shout about it's use but a) it aint biodegradable and b) it; highly corrosive
I have two DOFF machines and I was "trained " at Stonehealth  15 years ago

I do agree about the spores returning and yes bio products will slow that return down , but hypo will sterilise the building but again it will still return , as a side point I was talking to a customer of mine who is a chemist for glaxo smith  cline he said that hypo or bleach is totally biodegradable in 21 days and will return to salt by that time, he went into great detail about the chemical reactions that went straight over my head , but he said that it’s a very environmentally friendly product when used properly as it’s made from salt water with electricity passed through the salt water turning it into bleach ,bleach naturally occurs in lakes in a number of places in the world there are several of theses bleach lakes in America  he evan showed me pictures of them , again yes it can be corrosive but if used correctly it isn’t a problem , softwashing is coming to this country from America very quickly weather that’s good or bad I don’t know but there is a place for it , but again you need to know what you are doing there is a lot of false and misleading information out there about this way of cleaning we have been doing it for around 10 years and not had a single problem, I think all of us in the cleaning industry do need to be prepared to accept theses new ways of doing things other wise we would still be using a bucket and chamois leather

[chris scott]

Bleach is not Biodegradable .
Not  "can be"  corrosive...it is . It has a Ph of 12.
The Americans have been over he trying to convert us....they have gone back to their church now.
There is video evidence of them destroying everything they touched.
Their "bleach machines"  are illegal and impractical to use in the UK

[Splash & dash]

Bleach is not Biodegradable .
Not  "can be"  corrosive...it is . It has a Ph of 12.
The Americans have been over he trying to convert us....they have gone back to their church now.
There is video evidence of them destroying everything they touched.
Their "bleach machines"  are illegal and impractical to use in the UK

So you are a qualified chemist are you ? There is nothing illegal about softwashing , I always looked up to you as someone who was an authority on cleaning but it’s now quite clear that you don’t know as much as you think you know ,go away and do some research on the subject before making sweeping and inaccurate statements 

[chris scott]

Which bit don't you like and I will explain it to you?
I never said Softwashing was illegal. What I did imply is that it's illegal to mix your own chemicals as you cannot produce MSDS for your "new" chemicals. Most imported additives have no European data sheets which compound the problem.
Bleach contains no Carbon. Salt is inorganic ...it cannot biodegrade.

[Splash & dash]

To quote you there bleach machines are illegal, no they are not , mixing anything with bleach is illegal , unless it is approved there are certain chemicals that are approved to mix with bleach to achieve different results , Ime no chemist but something doesn’t have to contain carbon to be biodegradable as far as Ime aware , bleach is quite safe to drink in the right dilution rate drink it neat and it will kill you , again it’s quite safe to use as a disinfectant in a swimming pool but fill your bath up with it and get in and you will suffer severe burns . Bleach is a naturally forming substance in certain areas and it’s formed by passing electricity through salt water salt water is a natural product but again it can burn the skin in strong concentrations , Ime not a qualified chemist but Ime certainly not going to argue with ones that are and have stated that bleach is biodegradable, also just for reference have a look at this don’t think I need to say anymore

[chris scott]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water."       no it does not.    It contains salt, salt does not break down ...it is inorganic.

" mixing anything with bleach is illegal " not exactly true, You can mix what you want. You just cannot produce a "new" chemical without paperwork to back it up (material safety data sheet) MSDS. Without a data sheet you are operating illegally.

[Splash & dash]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water."       no it does not.    It contains salt, salt does not break down ...it is inorganic.

" mixing anything with bleach is illegal " not exactly true, You can mix what you want. You just cannot produce a "new" chemical without paperwork to back it up (material safety data sheet) MSDS. Without a data sheet you are operating illegally.

Bleach brakes down into oxygen and water and salt, this is a proven scientific fact ,salt is soluble ie it desolves in water and is absorbed by the soil and subsequently absorbed by plants you only have to look at the plant life in very salty environments to see this , as such it is biodegradable fact end of storey . This isn’t my personal view but it’s proved by science maybe you should argue with them .
Mixing anything with bleach is illegal unless it is specifically designed to be mixed with it , look up halothorms and chlomines see what can happen by mixing things that are not specifically designed to be added to it , surprising adding washing up liquid to bleach can cause these serious issues , again don’t take my word for it look it up again scientific fact .
Ime not going to argue with you any more on this subject but as Darren said you think you know everything and cannot be told , do your homework before making false and misleading statements ,as giving out wrong advice on hear isn’t helping anyone , we can all learn no matter how much experience we have in a given subject

[chris scott]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water and salt, this is a proven scientific fact ,salt is soluble ie it dissolves in water"   
 if something "dissolves" in water does not make it biodegradable! ...it's merely soluble in water as you rightly say.

So because plants live in salty environments it means Sodium hypochlorite is biodegradable...this is what you are basing your argument on? ...and what Darren tells you.   Wow....I am gobsmacked    

Sodium (clue in name) Hypochlorite contains salt, (a lot of it) .  Salt is inorganic it's an element (it contains no carbon ) it is impossible to biodegrade.



For your reference

element
ˈɛlɪm(ə)nt/Submit
noun
1.
an essential or characteristic part of something abstract.
"the death had all the elements of a great tabloid story"
synonyms:   component, constituent, part, section, portion, piece, segment, bit; More
2.
each of more than one hundred substances that cannot be chemically interconverted or broken down into simpler substances and are primary constituents of matter. Each element is distinguished by its atomic number, i.e. the number of protons in the nuclei of its atoms.

Sodium being the sixth most common element on the planet  2.6% of the planet is Salt.

[Darran Smith PRSS]

WOW!

Just to put the record straight. As far as I am concerned SoftWash Systems Chemicals are safe to mix with bleach - THIS IS THE REASON THEY WERE MADE - TO MIX WITH BLEACH - EU SDS sheets and are manufactured in the EU.

The machines are made to mix water, bleach and specially made chemicals. The chemicals have not been previously made for another purpose. They are designed to mix with bleach.

One bad example in the UK is the use of washing up liquid or Amine Oxide mixed with bleach by cowboy operators - the products used to make washing up liquids in the UK cause problems to YOUR LUNGS when mixed with bleach.

The reason my cleaning company uses softwash system equipment is to make the job safe for my employees, all they need to do is turn a couple of dials to get the exact mix of softwash chemical they want - easy for them. Combined with a two year long training course which they go through, which starts off with a 3 day Discover Softwash course, makes them the best in the business, and hence the reason why Purple Rhino goes from strength to strength each year.

We offer our customers a 5 year Insurance backed guarantee when we clean their render, cladding or roofs, this means the insurance company is that impressed with the system of training, the use of our Softwash mixture etc etc

Now personally I think that is BIG - and eventually for those who join in and become 5 Star companies in two to three years, they too will be able to offer this guarantee - thats what i call a differentiator and the number one reason we are on target to smash our goals year on year!

We are also Doff users and are featured in industry magazines and other press releases, because we learn how to be amongst the best in the business, we stick to the rules, we offer more to our customers, suppliers etc

Most importantly we help the little guys GROW their businesses, I think that is better than always acting smart, pretending to be an authority and belittling others in our industry.

Have a great day today wherever you are working and work safely.

[chris scott]

You waffle some rubbish Darren.

[Darran Smith PRSS]

Good Morning Chris 

[Splash & dash]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

When I spent a spell last year working for Darran I looked into Sodium Hypochlorite & Hydrofluoric acid and how to use them safely  and within the confines of a method statement & risk assessment.

If you get over the general consensus that is slapped on every drum of SH that it is damaging to the environment & aquatic life it is not nearly as clear cut and a lot of the findings don't give any clue as to how long it will take to breakdown within the environment, though the SCHER link does say it is almost immediate on contact with soil & the aquatic environment - See below -

'The decay of hypochlorite in the environment has been studied with a kinetic model
described in detail in an Appendix. According to this model, disappearance of
hypochlorite is practically immediate in the natural aquatic environment, reaching in a
short time concentration as low as 10-22'

I included this report in a recent method statement, to remove stubborn staining on a shopping mall concrete slab floor and the client was more than happy with dilution rates, additional rinse dilution and the run off going to drain.

Darran uses an incredible amount of the stuff and it is in his interest to make sure it is applied and used correctly.

Chris Scott on the other hand has shown, as recently as a couple of days ago, on a Linkedin video that PPE, safe application and concern for the environment are pretty low down on the priorities list for himself and his business and if he is offering a 'professional opinion' ought to marry opinion and safe working practise before he sits on a 'high horse'

I would go with the WHO and the SCHER report over some self proclaimed expert on a forum, who says one thing and does another.

See links -

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scher/docs/scher_o_082.pdf - from 2008 but i've read links referring back to this from the WHO (World Health Organisation) dated 2017

https://www.greenfacts.org/en/chlorine-sodium-hypochlorite/l-2/index.htm - this one bottom of the page just before the references.

I use small amounts within the constraints of my RAMS

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

Darren

I hope you are well and keeping busy

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

To clarify

That is 10 to the power of minus 22

[Smudger]

Cheers for the posts I’ll read those links over the weekend

Darran

[chris scott]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

Not at all.  You lot are so gullible, it's unbelievable.

The reports are about bioaccumulation, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing  Yada yada yada. 
Bleach is too unstable to bioaccumulate...that still does not make it biodegrade.

[chris scott]

Big nozzle 

[Splash & dash]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

Not at all.  You lot are so gullible, it's unbelievable.

The reports are about bioaccumulation, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing  Yada yada yada. 
Bleach is too unstable to bioaccumulate...that still does not make it biodegrade.

I think you need to read the reports in context and not just pick on one small point Chris , Ime no expert and don’t pretend to be but these reports and many like them are written by professionals in there field , are you trying to tell me that you know better than them ? Hypo is one tool in a vast toolbox for some types of cleaning it’s not suitable for everything, just like pressurewashing isn’t , if you don’t want to use it that’s fine but don’t automatically condem anyone that does use it responsibly, bleach is evan used by all the major supermarkets to wash all there salad stuff that’s pretty packed if it was as dangerous as you are claiming would it be used for that ? The word biodegradable is open to interpretation but bleach brakes down into compounds that are found in the ground and are absorbed by plants and soil , it’s not something like plastic or nuclear waist that will be affecting our environment for thousands of years . Ime genuinely intrested in how you clean surfaces such as k rend  that’s a very delicate surface and get instant results , I have tried several bio products that take several months to work evan then the results are not acceptable to most people , if you have some magical way of doing it why not share it with others ? Evan you cannot clean everything in the uk 😂😂

[Smudger]

Unfortunately Chris doesn’t like to share, just rip everyone else apart - that’s why this part of the forum is so quiet - the self appointed expert/guru police’s with avengence

Darran

[chris scott]

What would you like me to share?

[Splash & dash]

What would you like me to share?

What would be your choice of cleaning agent on such surfaces as k rend that will give instant results without pressure washing in stead of hypo ?

[chris scott]

There isn’t one... as far as I  am aware.

[Splash & dash]

There isn’t one... as far as I  am aware.

Ok thanks

[chris scott]

No Problem.

[clarkson]

That's a complete misconception. Brian Crowe in the late 80's did a very good job of "educating " conservation groups on this new superheated way of cleaning things. It is still specified today...he did a good job. He also created himself a very niche market. Today it the "doff" is bought by the uneducated to clean drives, walls etc. It's most prevalent recent use is the cleaning of render....although K rend state a maximum of 60 centigrade only. Again sales are based on a niche market.

Saying the Doff sterilises the surface is true... albeit shortlived. These microorganisms are air bourne and will grow and multiply given the right conditions. The doff does nothing to address the environment in which they grow, so they will come back.

"Adjust" the environment and the use of a biodegradable biocide will give better long-term results. Whilst not biodegradable bleach would work ,but the mechanism by which it works is not ideal when metal window frames and the likes are present.
The Yanks like to shout about it's use but a) it aint biodegradable and b) it; highly corrosive
I have two DOFF machines and I was "trained " at Stonehealth  15 years ago

hi chris
i have always agreed with your above  comments. if heat is needed you can use a small machine into a mazzoni for very similar effect. at a fraction of the price.

cheers
john