[Graeme@Access]

Doug,

I wonder if the phosphates in MS degrade to small amounts of phosphoric/other lesser oxygenated phoshporous based acids?  I cant think what else they would degrade to...

If splitters go off to acids then a lag in turning red might be expected.  By lag i mean weeks+ as decomposition of the splitter would take time.

What u think?

Graeme

[Mark Roberts]

The lag has also been seen with using ammonia? Phosphates are also used as buffers in some detergents?? I see this an indicator die problem in the fabric that simply respondes to ph.

[Graeme@Access]

Hi,

I can see why you would see lag with ammonia. Its quite complicated but ill give it a go. And remember its only a theory as i am not entirely sure of the dye structure.

Basically, its the negatively charged ion of the dye that is blue and with ammonia you do this:

Ion(-)H(+) and NH3{GAS}  <reversible>  Ion(-)NH4(+)

So you give the dye a negative charge and create an ammonium ion.  This process is reversible and because ammonia is a volitile gas, over time it will evapourate.

In chemistry we call it (and excuse my spelling) Le-Chitelliers principle.  As the ammonia is volitile the reaction is driven to give you a red colour over time.

To avoid this you will need a non volitile alkali, or ideally sodium bicarbonate.

Ion(-)H(+) and Na(+)HCO3(-)  <reversible>  Ion(-)Na(+) + H2O + CO2{GAS} 

This ustilises the same principle, but will make it turn blue as the carbon dioxide will boil off and force the reaction to the blue side.

Hope this makes sense.

Graeme Thurston
Access Cleaning Solutions

[Mark Roberts]

Thanks for that. that takes me back.
Someone has just piped up on another forum -

""I used a chemical powder of pH 9.5 and left the suite alkali, it had the same affect. My customer called to complain a whole 6 months after the clean! ""

Which still makes me think its an indicator die problem caused by ph.

The plot thickens!

[Dave_Lee]

Mark,
Its still quite a mistery though, isnt it. Going off the Indicator dye, chemical principle, you would have expected the fabric, when subjected to 9.5pH to have turned Blue not Red. It seems that the fabrics dye IS pH sensitive, but for some reason not yet established, which ever side its subjected to Alkaline or Acidic, it turns RED over a period of days to months. Added to this, is that for whatever reason, a basic alkaline (Sodium BiCarbonate) solution misted on and brushed in, will rectify it!!??
Dave.

[Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care]

I cleaned this exact same suite in Orpington, Kent and suffered the exact same problem. I quickly turned the tables of liability by producing an inspection report including photo's for the client to present to the retailer. The retailer accepted liability over the phone to myself while still in the clients house just on the basis of me announcing my accreditations and membership no's.  and informing them that I considered it to be a reaction with the fire retardant treatment;D
Customer had whole suite replaced at retailers expense

Spoke to Paul Pearce a couple of weeks later and he said it was indicator dye's and that Bicarb of soda misted onto fabric would resolve the problem.

Think on your feet

Alan

[Neil Grainger]

Gents

Who made and sold these sofa's? Is it limited to one particular manufacturer or is it all sofa's of this type.

Cheers

Neil

[carpetclean]

i suppose thinking about it if it was possible to do a ph test  to test the ph of the fabric and clean at that ph. thge problem being by the sound of it that even water  could upset the reading and lead to problems. it would be nice to get one of these discarded suites and do experiments on

[david holland]

i have a similar problem with a white suite that has turned blotchy- only in a few areas- client is a very reasonable - just wants it sorted- explained to them ( b4 seeing this forum ) if it was my chemicals causing the red , why has it not gone blotchy everywhere (ie my fault) - client answered and  I agreed - you are the last person to touch it  syndrome - also I agreed that i would contact my insurers and I would argue this with them re liability ( client even asked me to c/c his 3 floors of offices whilst there !!!!).

Please advise me what amount of bicarb of soda to use and temp of water and procedure

The suite is 3 yrs old and is a russian import and purchased from Furniture Village group of companies - not sure if you have these up north but i think they have about nine shops down south- they are not your low end market ie dfs and courts (bust)-  the store has also said to my client they have not heard of any problems with these suites( funny that )

I just want to clear this situation  up and leave a decent  and reasonable customer happy and not slagging my firm off at a dinner party, but praising us

I shall post the fabric and as much info asap-to warn others

thankyou in advance for any advice given


regards

David  

[simonc]

This fabric is called Graffio green and G plan used ity on upholstery around 2001.... we have had 3 suites which the manufacturer changed it is a problem with the fabric....go carefully   simon