[DASERVICES]

  Alex,

  Have sent Kirsty mail on this subject as went to BWCA coarse yesterday so
  would like to hear your comments please.

   And there is no way I am going to catch up with you, father of 4 girls driving
   me up the wall.

   Must be all that time you have on your hands using WFP 
   
   Doug

[Peter Fogwill]

Despite the sales patter of some companys, you will never be able to garuantee a perfect result if you rinse with your brush on the glass, this is true whatever brush you are using.

I have to disagree here Alex.  Rinsing off the glass after you have cleaned the window is a waste of water, energy, and time.   Have you used all the different kinds of brushes? And if so have you tried cleaning the windows without a separate rinse?

We have been WFP'ing for 5 years and have found that in order to ensure a spot free finish every time you need to rinse 'off' the glass. This is particularly important if you are cleaning windows on the 3rd storey or higher where it is harder to see the result.

It's a bit like cleaning windows with a squeegee and applicator, before the applicator even touches the glass you know what needs to be done.  You can feel when the window is done properly whether you are looking at it or not.

What we do on high stuff if our arms are feeling the 'burn' is to rest the edge of the brush on the pane and rinse across the window.

Alex

I think of rinsing separately a bit like using a scrim on every window after you have squeegeed it, unnecessary.  I have had umpteen debates on forums over the years about scrimming windows and how much time it wastes over the day.  People think he must be leaving a mess, and carry on scrimming.  I would be asking how do you do it.  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Peter Fogwill
www.window-tools.com

[Peter Fogwill]

Read Peters post and am unsure!

When Ionics came and did a demo the guy rinsed with brush on the glass. OK it was a first clean, but when I returned when dry and the "SALESPERSON" gone there were what seemed to me "Brush marks and dots". Surely a rinse off the glass would alleviate this.

I do use Ionics brushes, also a Vikan as a spare(not used), and am on my first cleans, rinsing with brush off the glass, maybe this is essential for first few cleans, then on fourth or fifth clean rinse with brush on glass!

Comments please, as it is a bind rinsing this way, done 1st clean on 3 storey house today, hard work!

This would have been down to the first clean.  The first clean needs more rinsing than normal, but it is much easier on your arms to rinse more with the brush on the glass.

Peter Fogwill
www.window-tools.com

[Mr. S]

Cheers Alexg and Peterf.

I will take on board these comments! I think ill just keep trying and see what happens, as we all know everybody has got their own way of squeeging windows so too it seems with wfp!

One question though, Is there a difference between Sheeting and Beading on the glass? What do these really mean, or is that another topic?

[Peter Fogwill]

There are two separate techniques, one for beading windows and one for sheeting windows. 

With a sheeting window you want to cover all the glass with the brush and then run the brush quickly across the top from side to side.  Doing this the water will cascade down the window like a big wide river taking all the contaminants with it.  Because a sheeting window dries from the top down the contaminants are working the way down to the bottom of the glass as the glass dries out.

With a beading window the above method would be a waste of water.   If you did try the method for the sheeting window you would find that the water would flow down the window in lots of separate fast flowing rivers, missing lots of the beads as it goes.  What you want to do with this type of glass is break through each bead as many times as necessary, by doing this you are diluting any contaminants every time the brush passes through the bead of water.

A theory I have is if the brush is lifted off the glass to rinse the force of the water would not be as effective at breaking through a bead as the brush bristles would be, making it more effective rinsing with the brush on the glass.

Peter Fogwill
www.window-tools.com

[billozz]

i assume then that to rinse a beading window you brush it in the same way as you would to wash it??

[Peter Fogwill]

Yes, but if the window is regularly cleaned, by the time you have washed it you have rinsed it as well.

Peter

[beefy]

could someone explain beading and sheeting please
i get the basics but what causes each one

[dai]

Beefy, it's a mystery. I have had windows that sheet perfectly on the first couple of cleans and then start to bead badly. These are the ones over the conservatories that I couldn't get to trad cleaning. These windows are on the same estate, all identical windows. Some will sheet in the middle and bead at the sides,top, bottom, what have you. I am beginning to think that weather conditions at the time can have an effect, ie temperature and sunlight. Maybe the temperature inside the building you are cleaning. I hate badly beading windows, I've even tried rinsing them using the brush in the way we use a blade, or leaving the brush on the glass and sweeping down from the top. I have also seen bits of dirt that get overtaken by the water running down and been left, on perfectly sheeting glass, especially when doing glass conservatory roofs and skylights. It's one of those thing we have to live with.
Dai

[beefy]

thanks dai, soon my store of knowldge about wfp will be so great i'll be forced to buy one

[Morph]

I asked this question a while back, about sheeting and beading.  Doesn't make much difference if i wash thoroughly, they seem to come up the same.
But yesterday I did a job where a couple of the windows reacted most unusually, I've never seen it before, but, as I did the ground floor the water settled on the window in patterns a bit like frost does, wfp crop circles!  Never seen anything like it, they dried fine.  And I haven't had any remotely illicit substances for many years!
Strange but true.

[Rob_Mac]

I dont understand why there are so few users of overbrush fan sprays??

I have seven brushes fitted with our own self made sprays.

We clean right to the top edge of the window unit and never get over spray.

It is all about technique.

If you use the over brush fan spray you will never need to lift the brush off the window, no matter how high you go.

Rob

[Count Phil]

So how doesyour setup work midas? do you have photos? Don't you get a problem with washing brick work above the window? Other that that it makes perfect sense. Does anyone sell over brush sprays?

[Rob_Mac]

There are some working photos on our website

www.midas-enterprises.co.uk

The photos dont show the overbrush fan spray very well.

One of the suppliers does do them but I feel that they are too far away from the brush, they are set on the goosekneck.

Ours are set on the top edge of the brush, just above the bristles.

No problems with over spray onto brickwork, as I said it is all about technique.

We have 600 domestic customers with no complaints.

Using this technique we have just cleaned a head office on three floors in two days, at 17 metres. No problems.

Rob

[Ian_Giles]

I almost never rinse off the glass, can't see any point, once you know what you are doing you just don't need too.
It may be more of a problem with flock bristled brushes, ie, they are more densely packed at the tips, possibly holding more contaminants.

The Salmon brush tends to rinse very clean because of the nature of the bristles.

The glass that beads must surely have some kind of water repellent finish on them, on some windows that predominantly bead up, on the windows that open out at the bottom so that when it rains they will always get wet, often sheet up (maybe not over the entire surface though) and the vertical panes either below, to the one side or above  still bead up.
My conclusion is that the constant weathering serves to erode whatever this finish is, ergo the glass begins to sheet.

But where rinsing is concerned, I haven't found the need to rinse off the glass.

Ian

[Paul Coleman]

I asked this question a while back, about sheeting and beading.  Doesn't make much difference if i wash thoroughly, they seem to come up the same.
But yesterday I did a job where a couple of the windows reacted most unusually, I've never seen it before, but, as I did the ground floor the water settled on the window in patterns a bit like frost does, wfp crop circles!  Never seen anything like it, they dried fine.  And I haven't had any remotely illicit substances for many years!
Strange but true.

Just a guess but maybe this could be from where the glass was fitted?  Sometimes suction grippers (I don't know the proper name for them) are used when installing glass to pull it into place.

[Alex Gardiner]

Back on the subject of rinsing without lifting.

In our firm we well know that you CAN rinse without lifting and occasionaly on very tricky windows do so ourselves, however we find that in the long run we would rather garuantee a spot free finish first time so we rinse off the glass, we also find that this is just as quick as rinsing on the pane and has the advantage of being able to see where your jets are rinsing.

This however is one of those subjects where there will always be a variety of opinions just like how to best use a squeege on the glass, as long as it works for you thats the way to use.

Alex

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Bill,

I have now taken a video clip of a a WFP in action on a regularly cleaned window.

This clip is about 5mb in size, if you have broadband I could email it to you, I am trying to find the easiest way of posting it on my website so that it can be viewed by all (I do not have the technical know-how yet!).

I hope that this gives you an idea of how long to spend on each window.

Alex

[Tim Morton]

Hi Alex, could you email it to me please?

Thanks
Tim window@spuddevans.plus.com

[billozz]

alex,
hi thanks for that, yes please e'mail it to

absdist@aol.com